In search of light: Who decides to action

[Joranoud]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

That there are only thoughts, feelings and sensations that come and go. That there doesn’t is a driver in place who decides which way to go, this part is hard to comprehend. That we are all connected and one organism.

What are you looking for at LU?

Guidance about the part around not being the driver. There are still thoughts of a me who decides to split from his girlfriend. Who decides to visit his parents and move away from bad feelings? Who decides to follow these thoughts and feelings?

How does self love relate to the no self part? I’ve studied a lot around the self love topic but if there is no self why am I doing this?

I’m trying to look inside but I don’t know if I do this in the right manner. Again, who is the I? How to really observe?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

Enquiry. The right questions to show where the boat is missed and why I still see the driver.

To help how to observe closely.
Explanation about the self love in relation to no self and to give some pointers how to deal with people who are still all in the self.

In the end to help the realization and seeing of the no self state

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

Went to vipassana and on a regular meditation practice in the mornings.
Did work with ayahuasca in the Brazilian jungle and non dualistic with psilocybin
Self love practices and some therapy around relationships
Different trainings around self development

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

[Joranoud]

After another week of study I like to add some context:

When I look closely to see where the thinking comes from (and maybe with some thoughts telling me that there is no I based on intellect) I can feel sensations in my body, more specific it feels like resistance in my belly. Maybe fear of letting go of the ego construct that wants to be special and free of sorrow...

When seeing there are thoughts about the driver seat. I am attributing the free will and my actions to the person Joran. That there must be some imaginary person responsible for the decisions I make: Go out running or stay at the couch? Go to work or stay at home.

Maybe more to come later, thanks for reading!

[Ronaldo]

Hello and welcome to Liberation Unleashed, and thanks for your patience waiting for a guide 😃
My name is Ron and I'll be happy to guide you through your inquiry.

For the duration of this inquiry, please let go of all books, youtube videos and the likes related to enlightenment, spiritual search and personal growth, it will only add confusion.

Curiosity, persistence and honesty are key, please post daily, and if you can't or need more time, just let me know.
Agreed?

How does self love relate to the no self part? I’ve studied a lot around the self love topic but if there is no self why am I doing this?

Self love is just part of the story, you will never leave the story, or get to peek out of the dream of me. Imagine a fictional character in a novel who wants to better himself, will he get better? Does it matter if he got better inside the story? Isn't all that just more story?

When I look closely to see where the thinking comes from (and maybe with some thoughts telling me that there is no I based on intellect) I can feel sensations in my body, more specific it feels like resistance in my belly.

Please look at the sensation again, does that sensation really say "resistance"? When you focus on the sensation alone, does it have any qualities besides the actual physical feeling of the sensation?
If so, what adds the idea of "resistance"?

Regards
Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron, thank you for your reply and being my guide. I’m looking forward to the journey together.

For the duration of this inquiry, please let go of all books, youtube videos and the likes related to enlightenment, spiritual search and personal growth, it will only add confusion.

Curiosity, persistence and honesty are key, please post daily, and if you can't or need more time, just let me know.

Agreed, full on dedication!

Self love is just part of the story, you will never leave the story, or get to peek out of the dream of me.

So I can’t get to peek out of the dream of me? Isn’t that what we aiming for?

Imagine a fictional character in a novel who wants to better himself, will he get better? Does it matter if he got better inside the story? Isn't all that just more story?

The fictional character who want to get better himself probably will, otherwise it would be a sad story ;-) Does it matter if he got better inside the story? For the character itself in its story it will but for the one reading it’s just a story. He can really get into the story and feel for the character but when he closes the book it doesn’t matter because it was just a story. So yes, in the end the self bettering and self love are more stories about me...

I think I am getting this in an intellectual level. In the last couple of days I could snap out of the story by telling myself the self is just a story and it helps. But I still need a lot of brain power to do this, when I’m tired or irritated I got sucked into the story again and get identified with negative thoughts about myself.

Please look at the sensation again, does that sensation really say "resistance"?

No it doesn’t. It’s the story I make from it based on stories and sensations from the past.
It is more like a pressing and disturbing feeling. It has something to do with fear, or is this again a story from the past. The thoughts that come up is that it’s hard and frightening to let go of the self.

When you focus on the sensation alone, does it have any qualities besides the actual physical feeling of the sensation?

Thoughts come up that it is protecting something precious... That I’m afraid to let go. Not sure what it is but it would be obvious if its the sense of self

If so, what adds the idea of "resistance"

I guess the idea of resistance is made up in my head/thoughts. Based on prior experience.
And more thoughts: Like a massive fight is going on there, the last restistance of the idea of Joran that just doesn’t want to leave because he is so afraid of letting go of his self hatred pattern and/or the idea of being a “special person”.

Much gratitude and looking forward to reading your next message!

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran.

R: Self love is just part of the story, you will never leave the story, or get to peek out of the dream of me.

So I can’t get to peek out of the dream of me? Isn’t that what we aiming for?

That's not what I said, here we are indeed investigating if there is a self, or not... (self = dream of me). Methods of "self-love" require a self first, right? If there is no self, what is the meaning of self love?

I think I am getting this in an intellectual level. In the last couple of days I could snap out of the story by telling myself the self is just a story and it helps. But I still need a lot of brain power to do this, when I’m tired or irritated I got sucked into the story again and get identified with negative thoughts about myself.

Yes, this is intellectual. When you "tell yourself" that the self is just a story, isn't that just more story?
You think a statement that you think you like, e.g. "there is no self", or "I am going to be confident" or "I am worthy of love", and then you want to believe it with all your might. What is happening here? Does it work? You may spend a lifetime with affirmations and still never believe them.
Self betterment requires some key ingredients:
- one self
- the ability to control thoughts
- the ability to do things
- a dash of free will
Do you posses these? We'll investigate.

The path to realize what is happening here is not going through thoughts, thoughts are the tool of deception.. the creator of illusion.

a massive fight is going on there, the last restistance of the idea of Joran that just doesn’t want to leave because he is so afraid of letting go of his self hatred pattern and/or the idea of being a “special person”.

This is a very common misconception, leading to a very common fear, but it's based on a deep and false assumption.
See.. there is already no person Joran, there never has been such a person, so why would anything change if this is realized?
Yes, there are thoughts pointing to a Joran. The thoughts claim that he is the thinker of thoughts and doer of things, the center of all perceptions, but try to find him, there is nothing there but thoughts, and sensations.

Unlike learning where you build an understanding through thinking and reasoning, in this Looking is really simple, yet not so simple, we spent most of our lives learning by thinking, so it would help to clarify this point.
1) Looking is always done right now, at this very moment, e.g. it cannot be based on memory.
2) it’s being aware of sound, taste, smell, sensation and colors (images) to see what is really present - actual experience.
3) In addition to these sense perceptions, we are also noticing thoughts - not thinking, but noticing all thoughts as they appear. Thought content will pull you away from looking directly, but by continuous and steady looking you will inevitably unveil the trick they play in creating the illusion of an "I".
When you are experiencing the content of thoughts, there can be no looking, there is the thought content, an imagined reality. That is why this inquiry can never ever be achieved via thinking and learning, and that is why the long and winding spiritual seeking effort is mostly futile.

Again, thinking will not help you realize what the self is, you have to look and experience everything directly. All I can do is ask you questions that point to something you can experience, and at times provide you with some exercises that when done with curiosity and attention can be extremely helpful. All you have to do is look at what’s there and try to drop all of your expectations, assumptions and beliefs - how hard can that be? :)

There is no need to answer each question I posed here, just ponder over that and let me know how it all feels, and if you feel ready to start the investigation?

Regards
Ron

[Joranoud]

That's not what I said, here we are indeed investigating if there is a self, or not... (self = dream of me). Methods of "self-love" require a self first, right? If there is no self, what is the meaning of self love?

Without a self there wouldn't be any meaning for the self love, agreed.

Yes, this is intellectual. When you "tell yourself" that the self is just a story, isn't that just more story?

True story ;-) Only more stories I tell the self, would love to see without all the thoughts.

You think a statement that you think you like, e.g. "there is no self", or "I am going to be confident" or "I am worthy of love", and then you want to believe it with all your might. What is happening here? Does it work? You may spend a lifetime with affirmations and still never believe them.

I've been trying this in the past and they don't seem to stick. So I doubt if they work, at least until now they don't.

- one self
- the ability to control thoughts
- the ability to do things
- a dash of free will
Do you posses these? We'll investigate.

Let's dig into these please

Okay, I'll stop answering all these questions for now. Intellectual I can comprehend the the part around seeing. Dropping my expectations, assumptions and beliefs will be hard but there is dedication.

It feels right, like this is the path to and i'm ready for it. Let's dive in Ron, much gratitude!

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran.
You didn't run away after this cold shower, that's a really good sign 👍
The somewhat magical thing here is that once the self illusion is seen through it is actually much easier to expose other patterns and conditionings and shine light on them, sometimes shining light is all it takes for them to dissolve, sometimes more work will be required, they can be quite deep.

Let's first be crystal clear what is actually here now, and what is imaginary. I will keep reminding you (for as long as I need to) that we are looking at your direct experience and not the story that is always attached. It sometimes seems silly but it's not. For example, if I ask you what color socks you wear, you can:
1. Recall what you put on this morning and tell me
2. take a look and report back
I always want (2), even if you're sure of (1), we are after an experience, not a thought (memory).

Please sit down, and watch carefully:
What is there?

Sounds (from around you, from your body)
Sights (even if your eyes are closed)
sensations in the hands, arms, feet, head etc., weight of your body, maybe an itch..
smells (may be faint)
tastes (may be faint)
thoughts - these appear as words, images, sounds (a tune, a voice) and any of the senses. More often than not, thoughts appear in streams that tell stories about the past and future, what I should and shouldn't have done etc. Would you agree?

1. please provide one or more items that you noticed on each of these items.
2. Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?
Don't let anything escape because this list is all you can ever experience, so be very thorough.

Let me know what you find,
Regards
Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

I wouldn’t run away indeed. Who is there to run away? Hahah guess I’m not there yet but like to make fun.

Ok, I get the process of seeing and the distinction with thoughts but please correct me if I get the wrong turn.

So I took time this evening to sit with myself and see what is actually there, here’s the report:

1. please provide one or more items that you noticed on each of these items.

Sounds (from around you, from your body)

The wind outside my apartment.
The sound of cars passing by on the road in the end of the street
The bones in my neck cracking when I sit up
Police or ambulance sirens in the background
Buzzing from the electronics in the room
Water in my heating system going around

Sights (even if your eyes are closed)

Nothing when I close them
Lights and a lot of stuff when I open them: Plants, television, speakers guitar, etc.

sensations in the hands, arms, feet, head etc., weight of your body, maybe an itch..

My back is pulling a bit
Those (nice) tinglings in my head next to my eyes when I stop thinking and go into meditation
A bit warm and sweaty
Itching beneath my belt, after scratching a bit of pain, like dry skin
Pressure on my breast
Breath stuck in my breast
Light headed

smells (may be faint)

Dried sweat on my clothes
A little smell of the rapeh that stands next to me

tastes (may be faint)

Some left chocolate in my mouth
Salty taste from my upper lip
Garlic

t

houghts - these appear as words, images, sounds (a tune, a voice) and any of the senses. More often than not, thoughts appear in streams that tell stories about the past and future, what I should and shouldn't have done etc. Would you agree?

Yes, the thoughts keep on coming as words images, sounds and any of the senses. To be precise.
Words: By trying to describe the senses above I had to use words that came from thoughts.
Images: Had an image of the rapeh bottle when I named it and many more, even the images of my ex girlfriend parking her bike came up when I heard someone locking his outside.
Sounds: Not so many, only now when I’m thinking about sounds of scooters passing by and how a really hard wind would sound like.
Senses: The thought about my back makes my back hurt? Does that sound crazy?

Yes the thougts come up in stream that tell me stories about the past and future. Many times my thoughts bring me to an conclusion about the future when thinking about the past, I think this is his trick.

So I agree, the tell me stories about what I should and shouldn’t do. I even use them to prepare for the day tomorrow, what I should and shouldn’t do, hahah

2. Can you find anything else? Anything at all that isn't on the list?
My tendency to comply would directly say No, because I really want to get it right and I use my intellect. But no, I will really take my time and look closely:

My right foot sleeps, this is a feeling...
There is this stillness inside, absent of thoughts when I go into meditation like state
This feeling inside of being a bit sick, hey that’s a feeling again ;-)

So the only thing I can find is this stillness, emptiness inside when I close my eyes and shut my thoughts. Otherwise I can’t find anything else than the hearing, sensations, smelling, tasting, sounds and those thoughts that keep coming up

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran.

One administrative note: Sometimes when you write a long post, if you press the wrong button you can lose the whole thing (oh it will happen).
I'd recommend either select-copy the buffer every few minutes when you type (ctrl-c), or what I do is type in a text editor and paste it in when done.

Another note, is that, at least when you investigate here, be totally sober, avoid any altering substances of sorts because otherwise you'd be doing something akin to trying to pull out a thorn from your butt, wearing boxing gloves. You need clarity and precision, or it's a waste of our time together, ok? (I'm not saying you have been).

Thanks for listing in detail what you've experienced, I'll make a few specific notes:

Who is there to run away?

If you take my pointers away I will have nothing left to say.. ;-)

Nothing when I close them

Are you sure? When I close my eyes I see black/gray/orange depends on lighting, and I see all sorts of shapes and colors too sometimes.

Dried sweat on my clothes
Garlic

Thanks for sharing.

Senses: The thought about my back makes my back hurt? Does that sound crazy?

yep, can a thought do anything? It's too early to answer, but we'll come back to it.

You started noticing how you are adding tags to everything that is sensed. Absolutely everything is tagged and qualified in a rapid speed.
E.g. 'Police or ambulance sirens in the background", "Buzzing from the electronics in the room"
Does the sound say anything about its source, direction or distance? Aren't all these qualities added by thoughts?
As you can see, the experience is always and immediately interpreted, tagged and explained.
Try closing your eyes and opening them, you may for a split second not know what is in front of you, but the tag will appear almost instantly. Can you see it?

My tendency to comply would directly say No, because I really want to get it right and I use my intellect

I'm glad you see this - yes, most of us are conditioned to do just that, but notice it and be true to what you experience. So keep avoiding the desire to impress me with your wit or intellect, we're here to make you realize something.

Well done, so you've looked and found the five senses, and thoughts appearing. Quietness or stillness is describing a lack of something, and I'm not even convinced you actually experience a total lack of any perception - that would be similar to non-REM (or deep) sleep. This observation is not trivial! All you can actually experience is what you listed here.

Now, please repeat this sitting and looking with the following pointers:
notice how sounds, and sights and sensations are tagged with a presumed source, location, meaning.
- how is the attention shifting between the sense perceptions and thoughts? Is this something you control?
- what makes a thought appear?
- what makes a thought vanish?
- where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?
- do you need to do anything at all for the sounds, sights, sensations or thoughts to appear?
- can you stop them?

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

After the long post I was indeed afraid that I lost it and ended up posting it twice. Thanks for the advice about using a separate app, i will. Same for the being sober part, I wasn’t high yesterday but I have the tendency to smoke a joint or drink a beer every once in a while. I will do the investigation sober!

Try closing your eyes and opening them, you may for a split second not know what is in front of you, but the tag will appear almost instantly. Can you see it?

Yes there is a small moment where I don’t label. I practiced this in the past in nature, not labeling and really seeing all the beauty without mind. Beautiful practice.

Now, please repeat this sitting and looking with the following pointers:
notice how sounds, and sights and sensations are tagged with a presumed source, location, meaning.

Yes every sound I hear has a name, object or action, it’s hard or even impossible to split them.

- how is the attention shifting between the sense perceptions and thoughts? Is this something you control?

No it happpens without any control. I hear an airplane and I immediately think it is an airplane. The sound of a car immediately is a car. The sight of a plant is directly named as a plant.
Even when I don’t want to name it it still happens. I can correct myself and say the plant is green but it will still be the naming of green

- what makes a thought appear?

They can come up from nowhere, like in dreams when I don’t know where they come from.
And there still seems to be some control over them if I want to. For example I can choose to think about my ex-girlfriend now. Or I can think about the things I have to do for work today and even make a list in my head.

- what makes a thought vanish?

Another thought, they replace the former ;-)
But also observing my thoughts seem to work. When I sit in meditation in the morning and observe my thoughts they go away.

- where are the thoughts coming from, and where are they going to?

They start in my head I guess, actually I don’t know.
It’s hard to really see where they come from, the outside or the inside.
There are thoughts about thoughts coming from inside or from outside my head and I can’t really see where they come from.
They are staying inside of me and can either go away, stay a little longer or lead to an action. For example the thought about me making breakfast will lead to me making breakfast eventually

- do you need to do anything at all for the sounds, sights, sensations or thoughts to appear?

No most of them I don’t, or maybe a little. Let’s see
The sounds just come, no action needed
The sights need me to open my eyes, oh no they already are open. I have to close them to block it. I do need focus to have a good sight but there always is sight, even when I don’t focus
Sensations can appear out of nothing, for example the sensation of hunger after writing and thinking about breakfast. But sensations can also need a trigger, by touching my breasts I can sense aliveness. Or is this just a thought again... I can sense warmth when I touch my breasts.
Thoughts always seem the hardest sense to talk about, I don’t know why. In my perception there are thoughts which don’t need any stimulus and some do. For example:
The sound of a bike lock opening makes me think of a bike.
I can think about the things I have to do for work today when I want to.
But they can also come out of nothing, like me thinking about a friend right now.

- can you stop them?

Yes I can. By closing my ears and eyes I can stop getting stimulated by them.
When I drug myself I feel less sensations, although I think I can never stop sensations when I’m alive.
But it seems to be impossible to really stop my thoughts, the come if I want them or not. There are a lot of thoughts I don’t want but they keep on coming. I did find a way to observe them so I don’t get to much in them and let them go after a while. But stopping from appearing, no.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran.

Yes there is a small moment where I don’t label. I practiced this in the past in nature, not labeling and really seeing all the beauty without mind. Beautiful practice.

You can do a very similar practice anytime anywhere - turn your routines into min-meditations... when brushing your teeth, notice each and every part of this process, pay close attention to actions, tastes, smells.. Same with washing your hands, dressing up, going up/downstairs etc.


OK, so clearly there is what we call sense perception, and there is an almost instant tagging and thought overlay, covering the raw experience. But we're just noticing it, not fighting it, we know it's there. Did you notice how experience changes before and after thought tags and qualifies?

Find a sound that is consistent, like your "electronics hum" or the fridge, close your eyes and listen, first notice the tags telling you what it is, where it is located, direction... and then zoom in on the sound alone, see if you can experience the sound alone and let me know if it has any qualities other than the sound alone?

Next close your eyes and sense your hands... do the same thing, what is sensed?
Does the raw sensation really say anything about it being hands?
Does it really say where you placed them?
If not, what does provide all that extra information?

Practice these, this will come in handy as we move along!


Now let's get back to your answers about thoughts.
Many if not most of your replies are not coming from looking at experience, but rather analysis. Remember my socks example?

They [thoughts] start in my head I guess, actually I don’t know.
It’s hard to really see where they come from, the outside or the inside.

that's rationalizing and trying to make sense out of the answer. Either you can tell where they come from, or they just appear out of nothing.
Can you experience a head when you sit there looking for the next thought? Isn't that just more thought and not an experience?

They can come up from nowhere, like in dreams when I don’t know where they come from.
And there still seems to be some control over them if I want to. For example I can choose to think about my ex-girlfriend now. Or I can think about the things I have to do for work today and even make a list in my head.

We can't look into dreams because they are not occurring now, now the dream is just a memory - a thought content. We are always interested in what is experienced NOW.
You say "there seems to be control over thoughts" Is there a pool of thoughts that you have access to, and choose to think about your girlfriend?
If there is choice here, you should be able to see all options and choose which one - can you?
What is it that you do to create (birth) a thought?

Yes I can [stop thoughts]. By closing my ears and eyes I can stop getting stimulated by them.
When I drug myself I feel less sensations, although I think I can never stop sensations when I’m alive.
But it seems to be impossible to really stop my thoughts, the come if I want them or not. There are a lot of thoughts I don’t want but they keep on coming. I did find a way to observe them so I don’t get to much in them and let them go after a while. But stopping from appearing, no.

Again, a lot of thoughts that you share here, you even say "I think", this is a dead end.

The sights need me to open my eyes, oh no they already are open. I have to close them to block it.

Really? Don't you see darkness/black when your eyelids are closed and in a dark room? Is sight ever off?


Same here: "No most of them I don’t, or maybe a little. Let’s see" You start with a thought, go to memories before you even look. You need to be able to tell a thought about a sense perception, apart from the actual sense perception.


Please sit down, eyes closed and wait for the next thought, watch like a cat watching a mouse hole - it will come at any second now, if you blink it's gone! Do this again and again before you answer each question:
- can you know what the next thought will be?
- can you choose to not have a thought?
- can you stop a thought in the middle?
- can you choose to have only pleasant thoughts for say 2 minutes?
- can you not have any thought for one minute?

Report your direct experience, not what the thoughts blah blah and debate about... I want facts.

I ended up giving you way more questions than I wanted, so if you need more time, take another day, but please make the effort to answer from experience and not just thinking about it.

Regards
Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

I will need another day for the proper answer of your questions. Still full on dedication. Thanks for all the guiding and patience so far, sending gratitude.

Joran

[Ronaldo]

Thanks for letting me know!
Talk soon,
Ron

[Joranoud]

Hi Ron,

I made time this morning for meditation and investigation.
This morning I realized how often I let my thoughts drag me into negativity or wanting to change what is. After all this meditation, vipassana, therapy and journeys with plant medicine I think I should be better. Hey but this is just more of the I stuff, and isn’t this the reason I’m drawn to this forum.. To let this I thought go... Interesting journey it is.

So I’ll keep in mind the seeing without labeling practice. I did it when walking the park yesterday and I will during the day and whit breakfast. Let’s start with answering your questions and reporting of my investigation.

Find a sound that is consistent, like your "electronics hum" or the fridge, close your eyes and listen, first notice the tags telling you what it is, where it is located, direction... and then zoom in on the sound alone, see if you can experience the sound alone and let me know if it has any qualities other than the sound alone?

No without a label it is just a sound, nothing more nothing less. Without thought it is hard to label it.

Next close your eyes and sense your hands... do the same thing, what is sensed?

I can feel my heart beating in them and touch of the surface they lie on.

Does the raw sensation really say anything about it being hands?

There is awareness that the feeling of heartbeat and touch come from the hands. But the being of hands, no, these are just thoughts.

Does it really say where you placed them?

There is a different feeling of touch when I place them on another surface and awareness in my body of the arm+hand moving which labels the hand feeling coming from the back or front. But the hand sensation alone doesn’t reveal where I placed them.

If not, what does provide all that extra information?

Reading the above answer it is my mind who links the awareness in my body with the sensation in my hands and provides information about it being hands and where they are placed.

Practice these, this will come in handy as we move along!

Whooooehoooee! Will do

They [thoughts] start in my head I guess, actually I don’t know.
It’s hard to really see where they come from, the outside or the inside.

that's rationalizing and trying to make sense out of the answer. Either you can tell where they come from, or they just appear out of nothing.
Can you experience a head when you sit there looking for the next thought? Isn't that just more thought and not an experience?

Thoughts just appear in a constant stream. When I close my eyes and focus on my breath they stop but this is only temporary. After a short while the thoughts come back out of nothing and take it over again, the stream starts.

You say "there seems to be control over thoughts" Is there a pool of thoughts that you have access to, and choose to think about your girlfriend?
If there is choice here, you should be able to see all options and choose which one - can you?

Ex-girlfriend, but this doesn’t matter for this example ;-)
Funny that there seems to be a pool of thoughts which keep occurring on a day, something like central themes in my life. But no, I don’t have a choice to pick one. I can right now choose to go deeper in them, for this example there are thoughts about work, I can choose to put my mind at work to create an overview of what I should do today or keep on focusing on the reply.

What is it that you do to create (birth) a thought?

Nothing. They do just come up.
When replying yesterday I thought (haha) I was able to open up a thought, for example work again. Now there is some realization that this is still a thought coming up where there is possibility to focus on. Hmmmmm, this is something.

So in my thoughts there seems to be an option to scroll trough different topics, the pool of thoughts about things I have to do. But the thought about doing this is just a thought, this is not me. Intellectual but hard to comprehend, I will stick to seeing ;-

Seeing answer: Nothing, only with thoughts I can come to more thoughts

Really? Don't you see darkness/black when your eyelids are closed and in a dark room? Is sight ever off?

True! I can see black when close my eyes in the bathroom and its really dark. When I close them now it is orange/red and there are 2 dots moving to the right. Now when close them again I see the sun constantly changing the colors from red to orange and back. Beautiful!!

Please sit down, eyes closed and wait for the next thought, watch like a cat watching a mouse hole - it will come at any second now, if you blink it's gone! Do this again and again before you answer each question:
- can you know what the next thought will be?

No, I can’t. Like I said before there are some topics that keep recurring so I can make a guess. But knowing, No!

- can you choose to not have a thought?

No, I can try to block the thoughts temporary but they will come eventually.

- can you stop a thought in the middle?

No I can’t. It just comes up and goes away. I do have a choice to focus into the thought and expand it to maybe some conclusion or I can just let it go away by refocusing on my body/breath.

- can you choose to have only pleasant thoughts for say 2 minutes?

No I can’t. When I just sit in silence and wait for thoughts to come there don’t seem to be any control over it.

What I can do is ask myself where I am grateful for, like I use to do in morning meditation. Then I have some control over my thought process and think about pleasant things where I am grateful for.

- can you not have any thought for one minute?

Wauw, that is hard. I first tried with just sitting in silence and practice not having thoughts. That didn’t work out at all. Just random things come up.
Next I tried focusing on my breath or a place in my body, now there are less thoughts coming up but still hard to block them all out. When I think about having no thoughts I notice them on the background.
I tried with timer setting on 1 minute to not have any thoughts and it didn’t work so far. As I said I can focus attention on my breath or body but in that case I’m just thinking more about my breath or this part of my body and try to blank all other thoughts out. Which I can’t in the end because they are still there when I lose focus.


I have difficulty by naming the facts instead of thoughts about what I should feel. This is my intellectual side who really wants to get it. Thanks for - and please keep on - attending me when I do. This is a major pitfall for me.

Gratefulness and regards,
Joran

[Ronaldo]

Hi Joran

You did a nice investigation, now you're on to something.
We're going to focus on thoughts and choice, because this is a key element. Surprisingly, such a basic part of human experience is hardly ever unexplored as we grow up.

I can choose to put my mind at work to create an overview of what I should do today or keep on focusing on the reply.

Did you decide to put your mind at work, or is that an after thought?
In other word, the thought about work appeared, the next thought said "let's think about work now" etc. But what made the initial thought about work even come up, is that a choice or an appearance?
Don't answer from memory, check it out during your day or right this moment.

Thoughts do seem to come in streams and revolve around a topic for a while, which seem like "thinking".
Here is a subject: "black cats are not like regular cats".
Now please spend a few moments "thinking" about this subject before proceeding.

You'll notice arguments about the validity of this statement.
is this a thinking process, or do thoughts just appear?
Do the thoughts actually "touch" each other? Can you find a direct link?
Are you actively doing any thinking? If so, how exactly?


Are you making choices? Is there a selection process that can be controlled?
Please follow each step and do it, slowly, and very carefully.

Pick a country
Got one?


I don't like that one, pick another please.
Got it?


Let's dissect each step and examine it:
1. a thought came out of the blue and said "England" (or whatever).
* Did you choose this? Or was it just what came?
Were all countries available? Not really, only what is known.

2. I asked you to change your selection, so there might have been what seemed like a selection process.
Say France and Germany and Spain came up, but for some reason Pakistan didn't.
was that limited group of countries selected by you?
did you decide not to include Pakistan?

3. a new choice was made - say France, and now a thought explains - "yea, I love French wine", or "I ate Camembert the other day, that's why".

Can you see that no choice was ever made?

Let me know what you find,
Ron