Subside the story

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:35 pm

Hi Vivien,
Are you absolutely clear that awareness and experience are not two separate / distinct things?
There was still some thinking of separation there up until now. After your explanation, it is clear that they are not separate.
The separation has been falling away from some other concepts too. There is no more seeing of individual objects, there is just seeing, if that makes sense?
Prior to this there was an illusion of a separate self that seemed to be seeing the objects.... that illusion fell away and there was just seeing objects... however now there is just perception of seeing. (It's not always clear, as I said before, old habits tend to resurface).
Can there ever be a ring without gold? Can you even imagine that?
No, I can't imagine that.
And can there be gold without a ring? Can there be a gold without any sort of shape (ring, necklace or a blob of melted gold)?
No.
Can you even imagine gold without any sort of shape?
No. Whatever thought of gold appears, gold already comes in a shape.
Can you see that gold and the ring are totally inseparable?
Even less than that.... There is not even two things there? The gold and the ring are the ONE and the SAME?
Yes I can see that. Conceptually they may seem as two separate things, however in reality it is just one.
Can you see that it’s the same for experience and awareing?
Yes, conceptually the mind is trying to separate experience and awaring into two, although these are just labels to describe one and the same.
It's funny to see this now.... when the word 'awareness' is used the brain turns it into a "spaceless space, untouchable, unseeable" etc.... however when the word 'experience' is used, the brain associates it with the senses. As you have pointed out, and it is clear now they are one and the same.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:43 am

Hi Greta,
The separation has been falling away from some other concepts too. There is no more seeing of individual objects, there is just seeing, if that makes sense?
Yes :)
Prior to this there was an illusion of a separate self that seemed to be seeing the objects.... that illusion fell away and there was just seeing objects... however now there is just perception of seeing. (It's not always clear, as I said before, old habits tend to resurface).
That’s all right. The illusion doesn’t have to stop in order to see that it’s just an illusion. It’s like when seeing a mirage in the desert. When you discover that it’s just a mirage and not an actual oasis, the mirage doesn’t necessarily stop. But you gradually stop falling for it.

At the beginning, for almost everybody, there is a flip-flopping back and forth between seeing and identifying. Even after the self is seen through. The old conditioning of identifying is still strong, and there is a pull back to identify. So at this stage, which can last some time (and it cannot be known in advance how long it will take, maybe years), looking should go on to help to stabilize this flip-flopping.

Can you say with certainty that it has been clearly seen that there is no separate self in reality?
Is there any doubt?

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

How does it feel to see this?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:43 pm

Hi Vivien,
Can you say with certainty that it has been clearly seen that there is no separate self in reality?
Is there any doubt?
There is no more doubt. I have certainly seen through the illusion. I don't think it would ever be possible to not see it for what it is.
Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?
Anything that rises are just random thoughts that are insignificant because they relate to the illusion of the separate self. Anything else that pops up can be seen through investigation. There's no need to ask questions because it seems pretty clear.
How does it feel to see this?
It is everything you said it would be.....and by that I mean, it is simple and just there. It's just how it always has been but without the constant suffering. The thoughts don't stop, nor do the feelings....but they are constantly seen for what they are. Although there is still suffering sometimes due to old conditioning, it does not last as long as it used to. There's a lot more peace/love. And much more understanding towards others, because I can see the suffering caused by identifying with a separate self.
At the same time, everything is vivid and fascinating.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:23 am

Hi Greta,

Thank you for your beautiful replies :)

At this stage, we usually ask some checking questions to see if everything is super clear.

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Tue Feb 02, 2021 11:54 pm

Hi Greta,

How are you with the question I posted some days ago?

Have a nice day,
Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:05 pm

Hi Vivien,

The questions were fine, just over the last few days there have been a lot of very intense emotions rising. I haven't experienced them this intensely in many months. However, what you said is always there in the background, that this flip flopping may continue for a while.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
No, there is no 'self', 'me', 'I' or anything else that describes some sort of a figurative entity. It never existed. This was an illusion. It was only thoughts that were arising with these stories of a separate entity having an experience. Once this was seen through, it seems silly to even give it any sort of attention, however old habits and conditioning are still arising. Thoughts that have been associated with the separate self are still causing some emotional turmoil, however it it seen through quiet quickly, most of the time.
2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?
The illusion of the separate self shows up through thoughts. Thoughts that are of/associated with the separate self appear and due to old conditioning the body/mind react usually quiet emotionally to these thoughts. For example: ''Greta'' experienced quiet a lot of anxiety as a result of certain situations experienced over the years. Now, when a thought associated to one of those situations appears, the body/ mind instantly react to that thought with a feeling in the body that would usually be labeled as ''anxiety''. Prior to investigation, the body/mind and the experience were all ''Greta's''. Things that were happening around, where happening to Greta. Thoughts and emotions that were appearing, were Greta's.
It all seemed personal. Investigating that there was no separate self, showed that non of it is happening to ''Greta'', or is personal because there is no person, just the experiencing of senses. And that cannot be touched by thought/suffering caused by thoughts. In saying that, it is as it always has been....simple and ordinary...and nothing has changed that much apart from not associating with an imaginary Greta anymore and having a lot less suffering.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It has been a rollercoaster of emotions. Firstly, it showed how simple, fascinating, peaceful life/experience is...that suffering is only caused by the belief in thoughts that appear randomly, without anyone controlling them. How there is no one in control of anything (including thoughts, emotions, sensations, anything that appears.) With that understanding a lot of compassion for others appears, because there's a realization that no one is in control of anything they do or what happens. There's acceptance of what's happening. Then again, other emotions are appearing all over the place and out of control (obviously).
Although a lot of this is happening lately, the emotions that are appearing don't seem to be as personal as it would have before, they are just appearing. Yet, this fluctuation has been very tiring.
In general, it is just how it always has been but slightly clearer and more vivid. Senses are heightened, thoughts don't have as strong of a pull as they did. Emotions are also heightened but there's also a sense of peace even though all these things are happening and appearing. The content of thoughts has become insignificant. Only when a thought is followed by a certain feeling, do emotions start to rise up.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
Emotions/reactions resurfacing towards situations...even though it seemed like they were dealt with. This need for ''self development'' lead to this (which was introduced to me by someone close). Once the illusion of the separate self was seen through, the need to ''self develop'' also fell away...as there is no one to develop. Through constant investigation, beliefs fell away over the few months, because it was obvious they were not true.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
There is no one that makes things happen. Things just happen. A thought appears, then the body does it or doesn't depending on the next thought. A thought appears ''coffee'', then another thought appears; ''I would like some''...then the body gets coffee. Other times a thought appears as a result of direct experience, a smell of coffee appears, then a thought appears ''that smells like coffee, I'll go get some'', then the body goes and gets some. Decision, intension, free will, choice and control are all just concepts in thought. Thoughts are totally random or appear as a result of direct experience. If there was free will and choice, everyone would choose to be happy all the time then...there is no one choosing/doing anything.
Another example: A thought appeared that ''I would like to get back to work''. The next thought appeared; ''I will update my portfolio''....and the body did that. There was absolutely no control over what thoughts appeared. No one could predict them, but the body tends to follow some of those thoughts.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
There is no one that could be responsible, because there is no one in control of any of it. For example; when my mother makes a comment about me, the body/mind instantly reacts harshly....when she just says something, it tends to react the same way...harshly, because this is the type of interaction ''Greta'' has been used to. I don't ever want to react in that type of way, whether I like the comment or not, however there is clearly no control over it. I used to overthink and suffer a lot over these type of reactions, because I didn't want to react this type of way. After seeing it for what it is, there's acceptance that things are just happening this way and maybe eventually this type of reaction will fall away too...maybe not....
I'm not responsible for my emotions, nor my thoughts. Thoughts appear randomly. Nor am I responsible for anything that appears in experience. There is no one controlling anything. Although this is clear, it might take long time for old beliefs to fall away.
6) Anything to add?
I would like to thank you for your time and patience. For opening my eyes to see what was already right there seen by the eyes, but distracted by thoughts. This is something others seek for decades, that which is already there, and with your help it became clear within a few months (would have been faster but my replies kept getting lost by the Pigeon post! Haha)
So thank you again. <3

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:19 am

Hi Greta,
I would like to thank you for your time and patience. For opening my eyes to see what was already right there seen by the eyes, but distracted by thoughts. This is something others seek for decades, that which is already there, and with your help it became clear within a few months (would have been faster but my replies kept getting lost by the Pigeon post! Haha)
So thank you again. <3
You are most welcome dear Greata :)
The questions were fine, just over the last few days there have been a lot of very intense emotions rising. I haven't experienced them this intensely in many months. However, what you said is always there in the background, that this flip flopping may continue for a while.
Yes, this can happen. And sometimes when it’s seen that there is no separate self, emotions can come with a stronger force since there isn’t much break on them, the break of a self, so they can come up freely to be noticed and felt. With time the intensity will lessen. But for now, they are here to felt :)

I’m giving you some more questions, just help to have a bit more clarity around certain things.
A thought appears, then the body does it or doesn't depending on the next thought.
Are you saying that the body follows the thought? How do you know this?

Can you literally observe that the body follows a thought?

Is there a causality in experience?
How is it known that there is a cause and effect relation?


Other times a thought appears as a result of direct experience, a smell of coffee appears
Thoughts are totally random or appear as a result of direct experience.
So experience is causing a thought to appear?
Is there an actual link between experience and thought? Where is this link?

There was absolutely no control over what thoughts appeared. No one could predict them, but the body tends to follow some of those thoughts.
So how can the body follow thoughts?
Does the body know about those thoughts?
Thoughts that are of/associated with the separate self appear and due to old conditioning the body/mind react usually quiet emotionally to these thoughts.
For example; when my mother makes a comment about me, the body/mind instantly reacts harshly....
In everyday language, yes we can say that the body/mind reacts emotionally to those thoughts. But is this really how it is in experience?

Is there an actual, observable link between thoughts and emotions?

And is there an actual body and a mind that reacts?


Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:10 am

Hi Vivien,

Are you saying that the body follows the thought? How do you know this?
This was an assumption made without going back and investigating it. In that moment that's what it seemed like, because I was relying on thoughts and memories to construct the answer. After reinvestigating, things are happening as they have always happened. Thoughts appear totally randomly or sometimes as commentary about what's happening.
Can you literally observe that the body follows a thought?
No, that was just an assumption/ another thought.
Is there a causality in experience?
How is it known that there is a cause and effect relation?
No. Experience is what is happening right now. Any sense of continuity or connection between events is creating another story. Thoughts appear and try to link experiences to create this story.
So experience is causing a thought to appear?
Thoughts appear randomly. Their content is also random most of the time, sometimes it is a commentary on what is happening in that moment. Their appearance is not dependent on experience.
Is there an actual link between experience and thought? Where is this link?
It is an assumed link, another concept as it cannot be experienced through the senses.
So how can the body follow thoughts?
Does the body know about those thoughts?
The body doesn't follow thoughts. A thought appears, the body does something similar to that thought content and another thought can appears making a connection between the two...but this is just another way of getting caught up into thought content.
Experience is happening, thoughts and emotions are appearing independently and yet nothing is separate. The idea of the body is an appearance and part of the experience, it is not a separate thing that can know thoughts.
In everyday language, yes we can say that the body/mind reacts emotionally to those thoughts. But is this really how it is in experience?
In experience these are all just appearances. Experience itself never changes, what appears; senses, thoughts and their concepts are constantly changing. Even saying that ''the body/mind reacts emotionally to those thoughts'' is another thought/story that is told.
Is there an actual, observable link between thoughts and emotions?
There is no actual observable link, only a thought/assumption.
And is there an actual body and a mind that reacts?
No, these are concepts. What only exists is experience/perception of senses and thoughts. A concept, what is labeled as a 'body' can be seen, however it is just an image that is part of the whole. There is no actual physical thing that exists separately.

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Sat Feb 06, 2021 12:18 am

Hi Greta,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Other guides might have further questions, and if they do, I will bring them to you.

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Sat Feb 06, 2021 2:05 pm

Hi Vivien,

That sounds great. Thank you!

Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:03 am

Hi Greta,

Other guides have no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Please don’t forget that this is just a beginning. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of conditionings, which needs further looking to help them to dissolve. All sorts of old beliefs, emotions and feeling can come up to see them and feel them. Please don’t stop looking if you want things to deepen.

If something comes up and you don’t know how to deal with it, please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look. I do further looking private sessions (video calls) and emotional inquiry. If you are interested, you can read more about that on my website (you can find the link in my signature).

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:43 pm

Hi Vivien,

Once again, thank you so much for your time and help!

I was wondering if you have any suggestions of non-duality writers/ teachers that you enjoy reading or listening to? (not that any of it is necessary for investigation but I love a good book!)
I'm familiar with Rupert Spira, John Wheeler, Joan Tollifson.
Also others such as Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi.

Anything along those lines haha!

Best wishes,
Greta

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Vivien
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Re: Subside the story

Postby Vivien » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:05 am

Hi Greta,

I don't really read too many books around this topic, it find them quite boring :) but... there is someone I really like, and that is Byron Katie. She not just simply talking about this no self business, but she offers the most excellent (imo) way to question and undo any belief or thought that is stressful and causes suffering. She has lots of videos on youtube about the work.

Do you know her?

Vivien
The most profound discoveries arise from questioning the obvious.

Website: https://www.viviennovak.com/

Blog: https://fadingveiling.com/

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NYX
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Re: Subside the story

Postby NYX » Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:45 am

Hi Vivien,

I have never heard of her. That's perfect, I'll check her out.

Thank you! 😊

Greta


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