Subside the story

[Vivien]

Hi Greta,

Yes, there's a feeling of something, not necessarily a being...but something.

Is this ‘feeling’ an actual feeling? Where do you feel it in the body?

What is the experiential proof for an observer?

Is there an observer which is something special, apart from the five senses?
Is observer something independent of and prior to sense perception?

V: How is this entity/observer itself experienced?

G: It is experienced when there's relaxation, when there's no focus on anything specific. All other senses seem to become sharper when that happens. Things look, sound and feel much more conceptual as nothing is labeled.

Yes, this is a conceptual reply.

OK, so sometimes there is relaxation, without a specific focus.
But relaxation is not = observer.
Relaxation is just a sensation.
Relaxation is the sensation of relaxed muscles.

So go to the direct experience of the observer itself.
Not the sensations labelled ‘relaxation’.
What is the experience of an observer? Is there any?

No, the presence is always there, the focus just gets shifted from objects to thoughts to the experience and once the focus is relaxed, it becomes aware of itself. It's not an independent observer, just an essence or something that's there.

You are talking as if this ‘something’ would be separate from everything else. As if this ‘something’ would be an entity, who / what could be aware of itself.
So where is this entity that is aware of itself?
Describe the entity itself, not a special state, but the observer entity itself.

Vivien

[NYX]

Hi Vivien,

My reply to this post didn't get posted the other day for some reason...

Is this ‘feeling’ an actual feeling? Where do you feel it in the body?
What is the experiential proof for an observer?

It is not an actual feeling. There is nothing physical about it. I don't feel it anywhere in the body. There is no proof of it apart from a thought appearing and disappearing.
The mind has created another entity, same way it created the story of Greta. An observer is just another concept.

Is there an observer which is something special, apart from the five senses?
Is observer something independent of and prior to sense perception?

The observer only exists in thought. Even if the observer was real, it could not be prior to sense perception because the senses are always present.

What is the experience of an observer? Is there any?

There isn't any. There are senses touch, smell, see etc...present but nothing else apart from that.

So where is this entity that is aware of itself?
Describe the entity itself, not a special state, but the observer entity itself.

I can't describe the observer, because there's nothing physical. There is just awareness of the senses, but nothing else. Even the senses aren't separate from one another, they are all happening at the same time.

Greta

[Vivien]

Hi Greta,

You did an excellent investigation :)

What do you do exactly in order to think?

How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?

Please be careful not to think about these questions, but actually sit and NOTICE how you think, how you do it exactly. So don’t go to theories, speculations, philosophy, or any learned information. Just notice what is happening here now in the immediacy of your own experience.

Please spend a whole day investigating these questions. Look again and again and again. Even if the answer seems to be clear, look more.

This investigation is about persistent repetition. Looking at the same thing again and again in experience, what brings about the realization.

Vivien

[NYX]

Hi Vivien,

What do you do exactly in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) thoughts into existence?

Once a thought appears, the next one occurs from some detail from within the first thought. Other times it may be triggered by senses. If I see something, it may trigger a memory. It seems to be a response to what is happening around me. Some seem to be absolutely random. There is no control over what thought appears.
Other times it seems that they appear out of nowhere.

''This looks like this..'' and that ends up triggering a new thought.
''What I have to do today...'' same thought occurs over and over but it comes out of nowhere.

When a thought occurs the visual content of the thought takes over the visual field. All focus is on that thought and everything around seems like it disappears. The thought seems like it is a real object. But it's appearance is not controlled.

Greta

[Vivien]

Hi Greta,

When a thought occurs the visual content of the thought takes over the visual field. All focus is on that thought and everything around seems like it disappears. The thought seems like it is a real object. But it's appearance is not controlled.

Nice observation :)

Once a thought appears, the next one occurs from some detail from within the first thought.

If you don’t analyse (by thinking) the contents of thoughts (what they are about), but you just stay with noticing them as they appear, can you actually (literally) observe that one thought is coming another thought?
Or is this just a logical conclusion?

Other times it may be triggered by senses. If I see something, it may trigger a memory.

Let’s dig a bit deeper here.

1. Let’s say a flower is seen.
2. Then a thought about a memory appear.
3. Then another thought says: the memory was triggered by the seeing of the flower.

If you don’t analyse anything, rather just look what is happening, can anything else be said other than first there is the seeing of a flower, and then there is a thought about a memory?

Can you see that saying that the sight of the flower caused the memory-thought is just a logical conclusion and not something observable in experience?
Can you see that the link between the two is just assumed?

Vivien

[NYX]

Hi Vivien,

If you don’t analyze (by thinking) the contents of thoughts (what they are about), but you just stay with noticing them as they appear, can you actually (literally) observe that one thought is coming another thought?
Or is this just a logical conclusion?

This is just a logical conclusion. The mind is so used to working in this manner, analyzing for so many years that sometimes it's hard to recognize that it is not observing anymore but that it goes to analyzing mode.

If you don’t analyze anything, rather just look what is happening, can anything else be said other than first there is the seeing of a flower, and then there is a thought about a memory?

I can see what you are saying. There was also a lot of anticipation involved as the investigation went on. A thought ''where will the next thought appear from?'' occurred quiet often and was mistaken to be part of the observation. As observation went on, it became more of an analyzing session.

Can you see that saying that the sight of the flower caused the memory-thought is just a logical conclusion and not something observable in experience?
Can you see that the link between the two is just assumed?

I can see that it's just assumed. Once there is any sort of analyzing, the experience/ observation becomes a thought process.


Greta

[Vivien]

Hi Greta,

The mind is so used to working in this manner, analyzing for so many years that sometimes it's hard to recognize that it is not observing anymore but that it goes to analyzing mode.

Is there a mind who/what is analysing?
And sometimes this mind switches to another mode, to observing?

Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something, like thinking thoughts, analysing or observing?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?

Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

Vivien

[NYX]

Hi Vivien,

I was more so referring to the brain about analyzing things, rather than the idea of 'mind'. I often use them interchangeably and cause confusion.

Is there a mind who/what is analysing?
And sometimes this mind switches to another mode, to observing?

The mind is another concept. The mind does not do anything, it does not observe, it is just a thought. Similarly, the way Greta is an illusion, later the brain created a ''being'' or ''essence'', now there's ''a mind''.

Is there a kind of entity called ‘mind’ that does something, like thinking thoughts, analysing or observing?
Can you point to the ‘mind’ here now? Can you find one?
Can you observe a ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment as you observe it?
What about its shape? Color? Texture? Size?

I cannot physically point to it, or describe it because it's just an idea in a thought. Some thoughts appear as visual images, however a ''mind'' cannot be observed because it's a concept, it's not a real thing that has physical features.

How ‘mind’ as such is experienced?
As a thought? Sensation? Sound? Imagination?

The mind is experienced as a thought, it is not there unless a thought appears about it.

Greta

[Vivien]

Hi Greta,

I was more so referring to the brain about analyzing things, rather than the idea of 'mind'. I often use them interchangeably and cause confusion.

But can you OBSERVE a brain here now while it performs the act of analysing?

What is the experience of brain now?

Remember, direct experience is that what is taken in with the senses right now in this very moment. Senses are seeing, tasting, smelling, hearing and feeling aka physical sensation. Plus the noticing of thoughts, like in "Hey, here is a thought."
The content of thought is something else.

Is the content of a thought ever experienced?

If a thought says: “the brain is analysing things” – then is the content (what the thought is about) is an actual experience?
Or these are just concepts in the here-and-now experience? Nothing real, just ideas?

Vivien

[NYX]

Hi Vivien,

But can you OBSERVE a brain here now while it performs the act of analysing?

I can't observe it. Any ''evidence'' of analyzing is just a thought appearing.

What is the experience of brain now?

I am experiencing the senses.... but not the actual brain. There is nothing to experience. There's this urge to say that the brain is experienced through thoughts but that is clearly just another assumption...or a thought. When I'm trying to experience it, there is nothing solid there.

Is the content of a thought ever experienced?

The content of a thought is not experienced through direct experience. Only the thought itself is experienced. It can be visually powerful.

If a thought says: “the brain is analysing things” – then is the content (what the thought is about) is an actual experience?
Or these are just concepts in the here-and-now experience? Nothing real, just ideas?

The content is not an actual experience. It is just another idea. The content itself cannot be touched, smelled, seen in real life etc. it can be imagined but that's just a thought appearing with visual content.

We experience directly through our senses....this helps to understand what is real and what is only a concept.
Then we have thoughts which are considered to be ''real'' or objects...if emotions and feelings are concepts, why aren't thoughts just concepts too(not their content but thoughts themselves)? I understand that thoughts can be visually powerful, similarly emotions can have physical impact.


Greta

[Vivien]

Hi Greta,

I can't observe it. Any ''evidence'' of analyzing is just a thought appearing.

Exactly! Just notice how much story-telling is happening. Thoughts almost constantly judging, commenting, interpreting, analysing everything, and offering ‘solid truths’… but if you look closer, these ‘solid truths’ turns out to be not that solid.. and not even truth :)

Thoughts are constantly spinning and weaving stories, theories, and offering all sorts of explanations… and we LOVE explanations… it gives as a sense of security… which is by the way a false sense of security.

I am experiencing the senses.... but not the actual brain. There is nothing to experience. There's this urge to say that the brain is experienced through thoughts but that is clearly just another assumption...or a thought. When I'm trying to experience it, there is nothing solid there.

Yes. This is just another story woven by thoughts… just more thoughts… just notice that thoughts don’t really know what is going on. They are babbling only about their ideas :)

I understand that thoughts can be visually powerful, similarly emotions can have physical impact.

Visually powerful thoughts? Is this really so? Or is this just another story told…

How does a thought get visually powerful? What tells about power? Thought? That thing (thought) that points to nothing in experience?

We experience directly through our senses...

What if this is just another story told? What if there is no we who could experience through senses?
What if all there is the sense perception?

Is there an experiencer? Where?

if emotions and feelings are concepts, why aren't thoughts just concepts too(not their content but thoughts themselves)?

The content of a thought is always just a concept, something that is not real, something that is NOT an experience.
But the thought itself, as a phenomenon is experienced. When a thought is present, its presence is known. Right?

So if you have a thought of Batman, then the thought is there, the thought itself is experienced. But what the thought is about (the content), Batman itself, is NOT experienced. Can you see this?

Emotions and feelings are not fully concepts.

They have two parts:
physical sensation + thought label

So the sensation is experienced. When there is fear, then the contracted sensation in the chest and the shoulders are real experience. The sensation is there, and real. Can you see this?

Only the label ‘fear’ is a concept.

And isn’t concept just another label for thoughts?

Concept = thought

Vivien

[NYX]

Hi Vivien,

Visually powerful thoughts? Is this really so? Or is this just another story told…
How does a thought get visually powerful? What tells about power? Thought? That thing (thought) that points to nothing in experience?

Once again it is another story. A visual thought occurs and and in an instant another thought with a story, comment or an explanation appears, just as you said. It is very easy to forget that these comments/explanations are also just contents of a thought. Thoughts full of nonsense and yet there is so much attention given to them.

What if this is just another story told? What if there is no we who could experience through senses?
What if all there is the sense perception?
Is there an experiencer? Where?

There is no way to point to the experiencer, just the way there's no way to point to the mind etc...once again it is another story/explanation. There are senses...next thing, a thought appears ''well there has to be an experiencer because why else are these senses there?''
There seems to be a series of scenarios created by thoughts from Greta to entity to mind to an experiencer etc...thoughts are producing explanations for everything that is happening.

So if you have a thought of Batman, then the thought is there, the thought itself is experienced. But what the thought is about (the content), Batman itself, is NOT experienced. Can you see this?

Yes, I absolutely get what you are saying.

So the sensation is experienced. When there is fear, then the contracted sensation in the chest and the shoulders are real experience. The sensation is there, and real. Can you see this?
Only the label ‘fear’ is a concept.
And isn’t concept just another label for thoughts?

I get it. The idea of 'anxiety' is totally made up...however the tense feeling in the body is real.

Greta

[Vivien]

Hi Greta,

I get it. The idea of 'anxiety' is totally made up...however the tense feeling in the body is real.

Yes, nice observation. Only thoughts categorizes sensations into different types, labels them, and then weave a story around that label “I am the one who is anxious, and I don’t like it”.

thoughts are producing explanations for everything that is happening.

Yes. Thoughts are almost constantly offer explanations, labels, judgements, etc.

But does a thought actually know what it’s talking about? Or it ever offers ‘information’ but without actually knowing (being aware of) what it’s babbling about?

Let’s look at these stories.

Generally there seem to be two kinds of thoughts:
1. thoughts which content point to something which is directly experienced, now in the moment.
2. thoughts which content point to nothing in DE (direct experience), rather to other thoughts content.

#1 would be ‘There is a table’, or ‘my hands are wet’, or ‘the flower is blooming’ - since something is SEEN at the moment, the thought points to something, even though table / hand / flower is just a label for something SEEN / EXPERIENCED.

#2 would be "I had dinner last night”, or “she said something nasty to me”, or “I want to be free”, or “I am going to do some shopping tomorrow”, etc.

Now please, gently observe your thoughts, noticing how do their thing, chatting about this and about that, labelling, interpreting, giving meaning to events and things, analysing how things could have done differently, and so on.
While noticing the dance of thoughts, how they go around in loops trying to find verification for their own self-appointed truth…. check for yourself if the above given statement is true.

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.
Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really points to another thought only?

Please spend a whole day looking at this. Check this again and again throughout your day.

Vivien

[NYX]

Hi Vivien,

But does a thought actually know what it’s talking about? Or it ever offers ‘information’ but without actually knowing (being aware of) what it’s babbling about?

No, a thought is just an object that appears and disappears. Something that is triggered by DE or other thoughts....it has no control of what it's talking about. It's something that just happens.

Are there two ways of thoughts or do you find more? If yes, please do give an example.
Does one set of thoughts point to something in DE and does the other one really points to another thought only?

There seems to be only the two types of thoughts. During the observation there was no other type of thought.
The thought that was caused by DE came in a form of a comment or a label.
Other thoughts rose from these DE thoughts... which meant it was a thought rising from another thought. For example: I looked at the fire burning in the living room...next a thought about how cozy the fire was appeared, then another thought appeared in a form of a memory being cozy in someone else's house.

Some thoughts appeared randomly out of nowhere and triggered other random thoughts. They weren't always connected to ones from DE, which shows how random and unpredictable they are.

Everything you have listed there, has occurred ... the commenting, analyzing, labelling etc. Once the attention is on the thought, there is constant babbling. Once attention is shifted to something else, the thought disappears quiet quickly.

There has been a lot more quietness, a lot less attention is given to thoughts and their content, and suddenly they seem irrelevant to the experience. They are welcomed as they are but also not concentrated on that much, because now I can see for what they really are.

Why do some thoughts seem more attractive than others?


Greta

[Vivien]

Hi Greta,

There has been a lot more quietness, a lot less attention is given to thoughts and their content, and suddenly they seem irrelevant to the experience. They are welcomed as they are but also not concentrated on that much, because now I can see for what they really are.

Nice :)

Why do some thoughts seem more attractive than others?

Attractive for who?
Is there someone being attracted to certain thoughts?
Where is this one?

Here are two exercises for you along the same lines.

1. Take a piece of paper and divide it in two parts.
- In one part you mark each thought which content points to the intake of senses,
- on the other part you make a mark for all thoughts which don't point to anything in DE, like into the so called future/daydreams/plans or past/memory.

Take half an hour time for it or longer and have a look how the percentage is.

2. Play around and notice thoughts during the day, and label them according to which category they belong to.

Share what you find. This time please give a list of examples for both categories.

Vivien