Where am I?

[Unknown987]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
There is no separate self from life. ‘Me’, ‘I’ etc is only a thought, a compulsive thought that pop ups and acts like a parasite, trying to own an experience. There is walking, for example, the experience of walk, and a label ‘I am walking’ is immediately associated.

What are you looking for at LU?
I read the book Gateless Gatecrashers and I really applied “myself” into the process. And I got it, I saw the truth. But there is worry: I don’t know if I know that Santa doesn’t exist or if I saw that truth. Is this discovery merely intellectual or is it permanent? I really notice that the difference is quite subtle at this stage and I really want to do this properly. This has to be seen.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Just a guide during the process. I saw this is so simple, maybe too much? Am I missing something? I don’t want to miss anything. I must get it for sure. Four days passed since I started to read the book and I noticed 3 or 4 really interesting episodes. I really think that I saw the simplicity of this illusion, but I really need a guide, someone who carry the light in this path.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I searched during all of my life, I am 38. A lot of readings, a lot of thoughts, speculations, fantasies, philosophy. In 2015 I started working with psychedelics, then life changed naturally. I started to meditate and I moved my attention to Sadhguru and others Indian guru. A couple of weeks ago I realised I am full, I really am. Too much infos, too much energies involved into searching. I am not a mouse and this life cannot be a wheel, it’s so stupid and complicated. So I started questioning. Why all of these practices make me feel good and then stillness, peace, happiness always vanish? Because all of these things have one thing in common, a thing never questioned: that there is a self to improve, to heal, to find, to refine etc etc. This has been the implicit foundation of “my” life. So I started investigate and LU arrived naturally.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Vivien]

Hi,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. My name is Vivien and I'd be happy to assist you in your inquiry.

This is going to be your inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have. We can have a conversation and see where it takes you.

The purpose of which would be for there to be a realisation, more than just intellectually, that there never was and never will be a separate self, as, such. All our efforts will focus on that.

I will tend to ask many questions. That's my job here. These, will be pointers towards no self. It will be for you to examine your experience to find out what's true or not.

I would like to ask you to write only from your experience as you see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.
And also post daily. If you cannot post, or need more time, please let me know.
Can we agree on these?

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?
What are you hoping for to change?
What do you hope that should happen?
Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

Vivien

[Unknown987]

Hi Vivian,
thank you much for assisting me in this process, I am very happy to meet you! My name is Claudio and I'll do my best; I will write only from my experience as I see it, what feels true, with whole honesty.

Can we agree on these?

YES, 100%. Let's go.

Could you please tell me what are you really looking for? How would your life change if you find that?

I am really tired to feel myself inadequate, the path that lead to a state of peace and serenity is always been too long and frustrating. Every goal achieved always seems an illusion, there is always something more to do.
Life cannot be so complicated. Every form of life on this planet live and that's it, except "ME". This static voice, this monodimensional ME that rides thoughts, judgments, lies and emotions: I know this is the problem.
What I am really looking for? Lightness.

What are you hoping for to change?

If I don't exist then maybe this piece of life could enjoy life as it is.

What do you hope that should happen?

I really don't know, maybe nothing. Something happened already in how the present moment is perceived.

Do you have an image in mind how seeing through the self-illusion would be like or feel like?

The first interesting thing that happened is this: Three days ago I was reading the book "Gateless Gatecrashers", then I was chopping some vegetables for dinner, trying to apply the deep looking to the present.
So chopping happening and mind was quite, there was only the chopping. I noticed that if the mind is quite, there is no ME. So the label "ME" comes from the mind. As soon as I noticed that, mind waked up and started labelling: I AM chopping.
That was quite interesting.
The day after this episode there were two more: looking at the label ME it was so clear: ME is really an inert sticker, a lifeless label, a piece of thought that repeat itself forever and ever. "Can a thought think?" asks Ilona in her book?
WTF it was so clear! Can a lifeless thought receive life, organize it, enjoy something? Then, few hours later i was meditating and there was awarness, really deep awareness that lasted a long. No Me there, no thoughts. Again: as soon as this thing was noticed the mind said: WOW I AM so focused.
And there something happened. "I" was able to look at this stupid label, asking: WHO AM I? And there was nothing, the void, then some mind chatting, some distractions, but "I" was able to not give up. WHO AM I?? And you know what I saw?? A stupid fu*king picture of CLAUDIO at 5 o 6 year old.
WTF, REALLY??? This is ME? A stupid image of a kid who lived in the past?? This is the ME i built up with so many EFFORTS? A STUPID FUC*ING IMAGE??? And then came emotions: some frustration, some anger, but ME wasn't there anymore, there was only silence. And that's it.
P.S. Sorry for my english. :P

[Vivien]

Hi Claudio,

Thank you for getting through these questions about expectations. It’s important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now.

Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations result in comparison. Comparison between what is happening, and the imagined expectation. Thus what has been seen can be thrown out or ignored, since it doesn’t match the expected outcome.

Life cannot be so complicated

Yes, that’s true :) Life is not complicated. Only thoughts make it so (seemingly).

Every form of life on this planet live and that's it, except "ME"

I would say that every form of life on this planet live and that’s it, except humans. It’s not just about you. It’s not your doing. It’s a human condition. All of us affected.

If I don't exist then maybe this piece of life could enjoy life as it is.

And what if there is nothing, literally nothing that is enjoying or not enjoying life? What if there is just life, which doesn’t happen to anyone or anything?

I am really tired to feel myself inadequate, the path that lead to a state of peace and serenity is always been too long and frustrating.

And what if seeing through the self-illusion won’t lead to a constant state of peace and serenity? What if this is not about getting into any state, and feeling always good, but rather feeling all emotions freely?

Happiness and serenity are states, and no states are permanent, they are all subject to change. Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about seeing that emotions don’t belong to anything. They are free floating without being tied to or anchored to anything.

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case. Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual. Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

Why all of these practices make me feel good and then stillness, peace, happiness always vanish?

Because seeing no self is not a state. Not a special state without half of the human emotions.
Those were peak-experiences. Experiences/states come and go. It’s their nature to change.

Luckily, seeing no self doesn’t depend on any emotion or state :)

Please ponder on my comments to see your expectations from a different perspective. Because what I can say for sure, it won’t be how you imagine it to be. Since it cannot be known in advance. It’s never how one imagines it to be.

So it would be the best, if you could drop all your expectations, and just to be a clean slate.

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

I can see that you’ve already made progress in this inquiry, and you also had some peak experiences. But be aware that seeing through the self is not like an experience what you can have during meditation. It’s not like that at all. It’s not a different state than what is normally happening. It’s one thig to know no self in meditation, and it’s another to experientially see it in the midst of everyday life.

So, let’s focus on how the self shows up in your everyday life, when you are not looking.

So, I’m going to ask you to start to notice in the midst of your everyday life, when it feels like that ‘I am the thinker, I’m the doer, I’m the feeler, and life is happening to me.

When this happens, pay particular attention to the felt sense of Claudio.

What do you FEEL yourself to be?
What is the felt sense of Claudio?
What kind of feeling is it?
And where does Claudio felt in the body?

Vivien

[Unknown987]

It’s not just about you. It’s not your doing. It’s a human condition. All of us affected.

I didn’t want to speak for 7 billions people, but yes, I agree. 😄

And what if there is nothing, literally nothing that is enjoying or not enjoying life? What if there is just life, which doesn’t happen to anyone or anything?

This is quite interesting. A separate self can enjoy or not, because a separation is needed in order to join or disjoin, like or dislike etc. I understand that. Does a piece of life enjoy life? Does an arm enjoy a body? Does a tree enjoy a forest?

Please, put all the books and videos aside, we are going to be focusing on what you see, rather than what you have learned. Can we agree on this?

Yes!

What do you FEEL yourself to be?
What is the felt sense of Claudio?
What kind of feeling is it?
And where does Claudio felt in the body?

Ok, I hope I understand these questions.
Is quite easy to see that Claudio has nothing to do with some kind of activities. Almost all of the body experiences are easy to identify as automatic, like verbs without subjects or objects. “I am” arrives later and there is a strong identification with the experience, but Claudio “lives” only in a thought, a fantasy, and I see that. For example: walking happening, just this. After some time “I am walking” pops up, but it is an idea of Claudio who walks. A pure fantasy. Claudio has nothing to do with the body, nor with the happening of walking. But...
Despite that, a strong sense of “I am doing this and that” arises again. I fully understand that a Me doesn’t exists, and maybe I saw also that, but that “feeling” remains. It’s a feeling about the necessity of an entity who collect experiences, feelings, thoughts. And it’s visceral. And frustrating.

[Vivien]

Hi Claudio,

Almost all of the body experiences are easy to identify as automatic

You say ‘almost all’ – so what is not automatic?
Are thoughts automatic or not?
Are thinking a doing (done by someone / something) or a happening (happening on its own, without any doer)?

Despite that, a strong sense of “I am doing this and that” arises again. I fully understand that a Me doesn’t exists, and maybe I saw also that, but that “feeling” remains. It’s a feeling about the necessity of an entity who collect experiences, feelings, thoughts. And it’s visceral. And frustrating.

Please let some part of your attention during the day on this ‘sense of I am doing this or that’, as often as possible. FEEL it.

“It’s a feeling about the necessity of an entity who collect experienced, feelings, thoughts” – OK, keep the focus on this FEELING.

Just notice, here and now, this feeling.
Just hold this feeling, be with it like it's some new phenomenon for which you have no name.

What do you discover about the feeling, as a feeling only?

I would like to ask you not to bulk-reply, since every question is a pointer for you where to look. And if you bulk-reply, you might miss some important pointers. So please reply to them one-by-one.

Vivien

[Unknown987]

Hi Vivien,

You say ‘almost all’ – so what is not automatic?

Everything is automatic, no doubt about that. Walking, eating, sleeping etc: the body does every activity by its own.

Are thoughts automatic or not?

Yes, same story.

Are thinking a doing (done by someone / something) or a happening (happening on its own, without any doer)?

Thinking is a happening, without any doer. Thoughts just pop up randomly, all day long. Sometimes they appear stimulated by the contest (like memories, associations etc), for example: “I see” someone with a blue t-shirt and a memory pops up, saying “I had the same shirt 5 years ago.” Other times thinking happens not related to anything: just recycling.

What do you discover about the feeling, as a feeling only?

Ok, focusing on that “feeling” I saw a pretty interesting thing. It’s not a feeling, it’s just another thought. And if I focus on that thought it vanishes, followed by the same thought. This thought seems to be linked to a very mild discomfort, it’s not fear, it’s just discomfort.
So it is a thought which says: “There is a me!” Then “I” look and “show” the lie and another thought says: “Ok, but there must be a Me!”

I would like to ask you not to bulk-reply

Ok, sorry. 🙏🏼
Thank you Vivien, thank you so much!

[Vivien]

Hi Claudio,

Ok, focusing on that “feeling” I saw a pretty interesting thing. It’s not a feeling, it’s just another thought. And if I focus on that thought it vanishes, followed by the same thought.

You did a nice looking :)

But let’s dig a bit deeper.

Please pay close attention in your daily life when it FEELS that I’m doing this or that, or I am deciding, or I am choosing. Watch closely every doing, every decision and notice what is actually happening.
Let me know what you find.

What is making decisions? How decision making happen? What is deciding? What is choosing?

So it is a thought which says: “There is a me!” Then “I” look and “show” the lie and another thought says: “Ok, but there must be a Me!”

And how do you know that there MUST be a ME?

Search through the whole body for any evidence of a me. What do you find?

Vivien

[Unknown987]

Hi Vivien,

Watch closely every doing, every decision and notice what is actually happening.
Let me know what you find.

It’s just a label applied after an experience. This label compulsively marks everything as MINE. But in reality, the truth is that everything happens without a doer.

What is making decisions? How decision making happen? What is deciding? What is choosing?

Decisions happen by themselves. I noticed that it’s about automatic thinking + automatic emotions generated by thoughts + automatic thoughts generated by emotions and so on until a doing, an act, is achieved. For example: now the body is on the sofa, typing these words on a tablet. Little discomfort on “my” back, a thought appeared: pillow. Then a pillow is taken and the solution is obtained. This simply happened, body and thoughts interacted and problem is solved. Automatically. And then I FEEL pleasure, satisfaction, because the body is comfortable. But satisfaction is just another “emotion”, a reward for the achieved solution. Me is nowhere here and this is just another label. This is so diabolical. It’s like the Prometheus liver, which grow back overnight to be eaten again the next day by the eagle! Forever. 😨

And how do you know that there MUST be a ME?

I can’t. It’s just a thought, an assumption, an implicit belief, something never verified. Maybe this is the nature of the mind, but this is another assumption.

Search through the whole body for any evidence of a me. What do you find?

Nothing. There is nothing. Me is a label which in real life doesn’t point to anything. Me is a fantasy (a thought), it can point only to another fantasy (another thought).

[Vivien]

Hi Claudio,

Me is nowhere here and this is just another label. This is so diabolical. It’s like the Prometheus liver, which grow back overnight to be eaten again the next day by the eagle! Forever.

And is that the problem that things are labelled as me or my doing?
Problem for what/who?
Is there someone being dissatisfied with it?

Maybe this is the nature of the mind, but this is another assumption.

Nature of the mind? So you believe that there is a mind producing thoughts?

How does a mind itself is experienced?
And where is the mind? How big it is? What shape it has? What color? What texture? How does it look like?
Does it have a smell? Does it have a temperature? Can you touch it?

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?
What is it in the very moment you observe it?

Nothing. There is nothing. Me is a label which in real life doesn’t point to anything. Me is a fantasy (a thought), it can point only to another fantasy (another thought).

And what knows / sees all of these?

Vivien

[Unknown987]

Hi Vivien,

And is that the problem that things are labelled as me or my doing?

No that mechanism just happens.

Problem for what/who?

It’s the expectation, again. It happens, I see it. And there is frustration. Looking at this emotion there is a thought behind with the same story, a self that cannot loose time chasing labels and bla bla. The label Me is automatic, emotions about the story of Me too.
Before you answer something happened. A thought came, a sort of insight. It said: “Looking at the real life it seems that a lot of time was spent in the mind, chasing the story of Claudio, building the character. Doing that I LOST a lot of real things.”
Immediately a strong emotion arise, a deep frustration, followed by physical discomfort (increased heart rate). This was noticed: at this point the identification with this character Claudio, who has lost 38 years of pure life chasing fantasies and thoughts was strong. Again. 😐 Does this mechanism function this way: thoughts do their job, emotions too, identification starts, looking is applied, truth is recognised, identification stops? Observing what happens during the day this is how it seems.
At this point, to answer your question, problem for who? It’s impossible to find a subject. Identification happens, doesn’t have a doer. Aha! Everything happens, no subject, no object. This is true!

Is there someone being dissatisfied with it?

No, there is not. It’s just a thought.

Nature of the mind? So you believe that there is a mind producing thoughts?

No I don’t. This is the perfect example to show that language contains assumed things and was used improperly.

How does a mind itself is experienced?

It can’t, it is a concept.

And where is the mind? How big it is? What shape it has? What color? What texture? How does it look like?
Does it have a smell? Does it have a temperature? Can you touch it?

Mind can’t be experienced by a body.

Can you observe what you call ‘mind’ here and now?

No, mind is like me, has the same nature.

What is it in the very moment you observe it?

It’s a thought.

And what knows / sees all of these?

Nobody. Seeing and looking just happen.

[Vivien]

Hi Claudio,
The impression I get from your replies is that you are investigating things on the ‘level of the head’, and not really investigating the felt sense of the me, on the level of the body (but please correct me if I’m wrong).

The self is not just simply a thought, but it’s very much a felt sense in the body. It’s a feeling.

Just observe this in your daily life, that it FEELS that I am inside the body, it feels like that I am experiencing through the body the world out there. I am somewhere in the chest and/or in the head, looking out through the eyes.

Find this sense of me in the body.
Where is it?
How does this feel?

It’s the expectation, again. It happens, I see it. And there is frustration.

When there is a frustration, it FEELS that this frustration is happening to ME.
Find this feeling.
Find the sense of me that life is seemingly happening to.

Vivien

[Unknown987]

Hi Vivien,
I just noticed a thing, tell me if I’m going off topic. Reading your reply a little bit of frustration was felt. Frustration, again. So I looked at this frustration and this was really uncomfortable. It’s like I was expecting a ‘Bravo’ from you, a ‘well done’, a gratification. So ok, I am making my best to look and not to think, but now I see that my first concern is to figure out what is supposed that I should write. I’m really honest with my looking, so realising this is overwhelming. I know, I’m riding the expectations again, I know, I see. But there is this sensation, that I will see that Claudio doesn’t exist but this me who is terrified of judgements, who want to be the first of the class and want a candy every two seconds, it will never go away. He is saying: ok, do whatever you want, but I will never leave! And this Claudio is the same Claudio who doesn’t exist. Isn’t it crazy???
This is the strongest sense of me that I can FEEL right now. So I’m looking at this feeling. When I try to look at this frustration a lot of thoughts pop up. A lot. And these thoughts are there to distract me, to discourage me. Thoughts and frustration/anxiety/fear are linked, If I look at one of them the other interferes. It’s a loop. I noticed another thing: the most effective defending mechanism is the one located in the background, away from my looking. If I look at the feeling, billions of thoughts keep popping up, tell me “this is useless” and bla bla. So I do a switch and look at these thoughts and in the background the frustration grows. They are working together to protect I don’t know what, nothing. And I really am going to bang “my” head on a wall today. But I will never give up, and “my” thought know this.
Ok, let’s focus on your questions. I will write you soon.
Thanks Vivien, your help is so precious!

[Unknown987]

Find this sense of me in the body.
Where is it?

This sense of me is not always present, or maybe is not always perceived. It seems to me that it appears only after a doing, an experience. It is always in the background. When observed this feeling show itself for what it is: a thought surrounded by other thoughts. There are a lot of experiences that happened without a me, like creative experiences, during which actions flowing. The “feeling” of me seems to be a thought that reinforces the thought of me, it makes the thought of me true. I don’t know, now this work is hard, because is easy to make supposition.

How does this feel?

Ok, it happened right now.
I was looking outside the window and a pigeon was flying. I felt an immediate sense of gratification and enrichment. Attached to this feeling a thought: that this experience of seeing a bird flying is an enriching experience.
So I kept looking. Enriching why? for who? For Claudio, who is the experiencer of experiences, the owner, the one who learn from life, who takes lessons from things. And that experience was a good one, so the attached feeling was good. It’s about a strong need for meaning, everything HAS TO teach something TO ME, so I can work on a pursuit, my story/character can have a direction in life, Claudio has to level up. This mechanism not always happen. If I scratch my back I don’t feel that I’m scratching my back. But if I do something that has a meaning TO ME, to the story of me, then yes, I’m this body who has seen that beautiful sunset and this is a nice experience happened TO ME.
But, keep looking, I saw that me doesn’t point to anything real, this is a broken link. I saw very clearly that it is a label/thought. But the fact is that the feeling of fulfilling satisfaction generated by the pigeon or the sunset or whatever experience is still there, even if there is nobody there.
I understand another pattern now: when the looking becomes more challenging thoughts have the tendency to interfere in the process. It’s a mess. 🤯
Find this feeling.

Find the sense of me that life is seemingly happening to.

Am I already answered?
Thank you Vivien!

[Vivien]

Hi Claudio,

It’s like I was expecting a ‘Bravo’ from you, a ‘well done’, a gratification. So ok, I am making my best to look and not to think, but now I see that my first concern is to figure out what is supposed that I should write. I’m really honest with my looking, so realising this is overwhelming.

It’s very good that you can see this. And I have to say this again, you are not alone in this. :) It’s part of human nature to seek approval.
I know, I’m riding the expectations again, I know, I see. But there is this sensation, that I will see that Claudio doesn’t exist but this me who is terrified of judgements, who want to be the first of the class and want a candy every two seconds, it will never go away. He is saying: ok, do whatever you want, but I will never leave! And this Claudio is the same Claudio who doesn’t exist. Isn’t it crazy???
Emotions that are linked to the self are important. Since as soon as a pattern is triggered, the associated emotion arises, and providing the reality-effect to the self.

This is the strongest sense of me that I can FEEL right now.

Great. So watch out for any sense of self that comes with emotions. These are excellent opportunities to inquire. And when an emotion-based sense of self is seen through, that’s where recognition can happen.

They are working together to protect I don’t know what, nothing.

Yes, exactly. It SEEMS that there is something, that there is SOMEONE who needs protection.
So search for this someone every time when there is a need to protect.
Since if the need to protect arises, it means that in that moment the self is taken to be real.

This sense of me is not always present, or maybe is not always perceived. It seems to me that it appears only after a doing, an experience. It is always in the background. When observed this feeling show itself for what it is: a thought surrounded by other thoughts.

When you notice this feeling of ‘sense of me’ be careful not to divert back to thinking and just saying that it’s just a thought surrounded by other thoughts.

Since when the self is taken to be real, it’s NOT just thoughts surrounded by other thoughts. It’s LITEREALLY a sensation in the body, taken to be a person.
Watch out for this.

Try to catch this sensation of me. It’s usually in the chest and/or the head. It’s often moving, or jumping from one place to another when you try to observe it.

Focus on FEELING what is happening in the body.
It literally feels like that I am inside the body, behind the skin.

It’s the physical feeling of I’m moving MY body, I am thinking, I am deciding, I am choosing, I am feeling MY emotions, I’m orchestrating from within.

Find where these FEEL in the body.
Find the sensation that feels to be me.

I was looking outside the window and a pigeon was flying. I felt an immediate sense of gratification and enrichment. Attached to this feeling a thought: that this experience of seeing a bird flying is an enriching experience.
So I kept looking. Enriching why? for who? For Claudio, who is the experiencer of experiences, the owner, the one who learn from life, who takes lessons from things. And that experience was a good one, so the attached feeling was good. It’s about a strong need for meaning, everything HAS TO teach something TO ME, so I can work on a pursuit, my story/character can have a direction in life, Claudio has to level up

Here you described the story of me. And yes, the me is a thought story, but NOT just that. It’s also a physical feeling/sensation in the body. And since that sensation is real, and actually happening, that provides the reality-effect to the story.

The story FEELS real, since the sensation is real. Can you see this?

Please spend lots of time during the day, and notice the moments, when the story is being supported by physical sensations. Especially pay attention when any emotion is present.

Vivien