Searching for my true nature and reality

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Fri Jun 05, 2020 3:39 am

Hi Baze,

Would you say that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition?

If, yes how does the shift itself FELT?

What has changed in normal everyday experience since the start of this conversation?
What hasn’t changed?
What is the main difference?

Is searching/seeking still going on?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:25 pm

Hi Vivien,
Would you say that there has been a shift from an intellectual understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition?

If, yes how does the shift itself FELT?
Yes, much more than when we started. I can't say it felt like something, it was more like "aha" moments and some laughs :).
What has changed in normal everyday experience since the start of this conversation?
What hasn’t changed?
What is the main difference?
Nothing really changed in normal everyday experience, the main difference I can say it's the perspective of looking at things.
Is searching/seeking still going on?
No, no more searching/seeking going on.

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Sat Jun 06, 2020 1:53 am

Hi Baze,
Yes, much more than when we started. I can't say it felt like something, it was more like "aha" moments and some laughs :).
Can you please say about these aha moments a bit more?
Can you point to the part of this inquiry when this happened?

Are you saying that you’ve discovered that the separate self you believed to be yourself to be in your whole life, but that discovery didn’t trigger any emotion? You discovered something very important and profound, and there was no emotional reaction to it?

And in this very moment, as you look at it, how does it feel to see that the self is just a fiction?

Nothing really changed in normal everyday experience, the main difference I can say it's the perspective of looking at things.
Could you tell a bit about how this perspective of looking at things changed?
How was it before, and how it is now?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Sat Jun 06, 2020 11:55 pm

Hi Vivien,
Can you please say about these aha moments a bit more?
Can you point to the part of this inquiry when this happened?
There were two points in this inquiry when I had those moments. The first one was at the beginning with doing the inquiry for free will and choice, when I told you that I went to the balcony to think and asked myself who made the decision to come there. It was clear that there was no "me" who chose to go there just mind labeling the already made choice with "lets go to the balcony". The second one was with the sensations in the body. Seeing how they were not "me" was also a big shift for me.
Are you saying that you’ve discovered that the separate self you believed to be yourself to be in your whole life, but that discovery didn’t trigger any emotion? You discovered something very important and profound, and there was no emotional reaction to it?
Before starting this inquiry I already told you that I was reading Gateless Gatecrashers, I was doing the inquiries as I was reading along and there I had the biggest shift of really seeing what this "I" was. In the first moment it felt very liberating and profound, seeing the perspective from where all the gurus and sages talk and that there is no "me trying" to do anything. But after that I couldn't see the point of doing something more, setting goals or improving "myself" in anyway, it all looked pointless. Also this fear appeared knowing that there is no "I" having control over anything. There were still parts of this "I" that I didn't want to let go even if I knew they weren't true. That's why I came here, to work on this mostly. But now seeing all this, is there anything more to life than to sit back, trust it and enjoy it? Good things and bad things happened before and will still happen it is all part of life, but who are "we" to say whats good and bad? It is all just an idea. I don't know, maybe I am still missing something. Am I?
Could you tell a bit about how this perspective of looking at things changed?
How was it before, and how it is now?
Before it was all these doings from the point of Baze. I am doing this, I am writing this, I am breathing, I and me in everything that happened in life. Now it's seeing that everything just happens with no controller, doer, thinker, feeler etc...
And in this very moment, as you look at it, how does it feel to see that the self is just a fiction?
Beautiful, amazing, profound, liberating, crazy and scary sometimes. Seeing the world as a big play with most of the people identified with this characters they believe they are can be all these things.

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:23 am

Hi Baze,

Thank you for your sharing. What we usually do at this state of the process is to ask some final questions that I will show to other guides to see if there is anything that we might have missed and that my guiding was clear. Other guides might or might not have further questions for you.

Are you ready for these final questions?
Or is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Sun Jun 07, 2020 9:38 pm

Hi Vivien,
Are you ready for these final questions?
Or is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?
Yes I am ready for the final questions. No, nothing right now that is not clear.

Thank you for your time and guidance. Much gratitude for you and everyone here helping people see the truth.

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 08, 2020 1:46 am

Hi Baze,
Thank you for your time and guidance. Much gratitude for you and everyone here helping people see the truth.
You are very welcome :)

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked. You’ve might written about what some of the questions asking, but please write as if you were never replying to these before.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.


6) Anything to add?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:42 am

Hi Vivien,

1. No, there is no separate self at all, in any shape and form and never was.

2. The illusion of separate self starts from a very young age when we start learning a language. We are given some name and we are told you are this, I am that. From there on everything is centered about this person with this name, we create beliefs about ourselves and form this character and we play all this roles throughout life never questioning what is actually true. We think we are in control, that we think, that we chose, but it is only an illusion there is no "we" ,"I", "me" that does any of these things.

3. Seeing it for the first it was this mixture of feelings of liberation, freedom, like something was lifted off of me because I was thinking that I am the one who is trying in life, who is doing all these things. After that it was followed with all these dark thoughts and feelings of seeing no point at doing anything, setting goals, and improving myself and also not accepting that we have no free will and choice even if deep down I knew it was the truth. But now after doing this inquiry I feel more open to life, there is more acceptance to what is, no fighting it and expecting every new day like what happens next?

4. I can't say it was like only one point, it was like all the little steps and realizations piling up on one another. I think it all started with doing the inquiry of comparing the experience of me saying in my head "I am breathing" and "breathing". That is when something clicked, from there on doing the inquiry for choice and free will and with the sensations of the body everything started becoming more clear and clear.

5a. Everything just happens, there no "thing" that makes things happen. We always choose what we think is the best in the given situation, we have a random thought about doing something, some sensation or instinct that is already predetermined and there is only the mind labeling the experience afterwards with "I'm doing, chose, control this". We think that if something unexpected happens is just a coincidence, if we plan it, it is our doing, but its only finding a reason in the mind to what happens. Example would be choosing what to eat for lunch at work, sometimes it is some craving and then automatically decision happens to eat that thing, or something I smell or see and decision just happens randomly.

5b. In reality there is no "I" that is responsible for the happenings in life, but we still hold this "personal" responsibility to act accordingly in life. Seeing through the illusion doesn't mean we stop taking care of stuff,things or people. Example would be taking care of family, friends, pets.

6. Just to say thank you again, and to ask you for some recommendations for books that had an impact on you. Also is there anything left to do from here?

Thank you so much again.

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:00 am

Hi Baze,

I have some clarifying questions if you don’t mind, just to make sure that everything is clear.
But now after doing this inquiry I feel more open to life, there is more acceptance to what is, no fighting it and expecting every new day like what happens next?
What is it exactly that is more open to life?
What does life happen to?
We think that if something unexpected happens is just a coincidence, if we plan it, it is our doing, but its only finding a reason in the mind to what happens.
What is it that thinks?
What is it that plans?
And what is mind?
Is there a mind actually doing something, like labelling?
Example would be choosing what to eat for lunch at work, sometimes it is some craving and then automatically decision happens to eat that thing, or something I smell or see and decision just happens randomly.
When you say “I smell” – what do you mean by I? What is doing the smelling?
What is it that is experiencing smell?

Just to say thank you again, and to ask you for some recommendations for books that had an impact on you.
Is there a feeling that something is not complete?
That there might be something missing, and this missing link might be found in books?
Is seeking still happening?

Also is there anything left to do from here?
How do you feel? Is there?

The core belief of being a separate self is seen through which also includes others beliefs that support this idea. However, like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots (beliefs, patterns) that need undoing. Falling away of conditionings can last at the end of the organism. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Tue Jun 09, 2020 9:16 pm

H Vivien,

Yes sure, I know I am using "I", "me", "we" in my answers but I don't know how to express otherwise, and also english is not my native language. I'm really amazed and grateful that you don't give up easily on me and you are trying to see that everything is clear. I really appreciate that :). Ok, lets see if everything is clear.
What is it exactly that is more open to life?
What does life happen to?
It is this sensation, feeling of openness happening, that would be more accurate expression. Life doesn't happen to someone or something, life just happens. Life is happening as sensations, and they are one, not separate.
What is it that thinks?
What is it that plans?
And what is mind?
Is there a mind actually doing something, like labelling?
There is no it that plans or thinks, its only thoughts/thinking and planning happening. There is no mind, it is only thoughts appearing from nowhere. Mind is not doing anything, labeling just happens. Labeling is more like a "natural" thing for what we call mind that starts with the learning of a language.
When you say “I smell” – what do you mean by I? What is doing the smelling?
What is it that is experiencing smell?
I didn't meant "I" like a separate entity, it was again poor choice of words. It's just the sensation of smell happening that triggers a decision to be made what to eat.
Is there a feeling that something is not complete?
That there might be something missing, and this missing link might be found in books?
Is seeking still happening?
How do you feel? Is there?
I knew you would ask me this questions when I wrote that :). But actually you answered all of these with the last sentences, that was more what I wanted to ask. And no, nothing is missing, if anything books were more confusing, now is just reading for amusement. Started reading Jed Mckenna recently, really funny and entertaining guy :).

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:00 am

Hi Baze,
Yes sure, I know I am using "I", "me", "we" in my answers but I don't know how to express otherwise, and also english is not my native language.
Yes, I thought that it was probably just a language thing, but it’s better to check to make sure. Your English is excellent, by the way :)

I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:05 am

Hi Baze,

Other guides have no further questions for you. Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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