Searching for my true nature and reality

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Thu May 28, 2020 5:17 am

Hi Baze,
I can't find someone who is actually afraid only the thoughts about a me being afraid and sensations of fear in the body. I don't know what you really mean on behalf of an actual, real person.
What I meant is that thoughts are constantly talking about ME, ME, ME! My car, MY feelings, I AM sad, I AM afraid, MY body, MY digestion, MY thoughts, MY friend, she hurt ME, etc.

So when I say ‘on behalf of an actual, real person’ what I mean if there is there is a person inside the body, whom all these thoughts are about? Or there are only thoughts about a me, but not an actual autonomous entity living inside the body, protected by the skin?

No, Baze is not the author of internal commentary or the thinker of thoughts, but it seems like all these thoughts appearing are about this Baze and that same Baze is being afraid of seeing no one being at the wheel.
So where is Baze? Where in the body? Find its exact location where Baze resides in the body?

How does Baze felt? What is the FEELING of Baze?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Fri May 29, 2020 12:01 am

Hi Vivien,
So when I say ‘on behalf of an actual, real person’ what I mean if there is there is a person inside the body, whom all these thoughts are about? Or there are only thoughts about a me, but not an actual autonomous entity living inside the body, protected by the skin?
There are only thoughts about me, not a real person. The only thing inside the body I can find are sensations.
So where is Baze? Where in the body? Find its exact location where Baze resides in the body?

How does Baze felt? What is the FEELING of Baze?
Baze is nowhere to be found, not in the body or any other place. Baze is just collection of thoughts, beliefs and memories. Baze can't be felt and there is no feeling of Baze, Baze can only be experienced as a thought or a sensation.

Thank you,

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Fri May 29, 2020 6:16 am

Hi Baze,
Baze is nowhere to be found, not in the body or any other place. Baze is just collection of thoughts, beliefs and memories. Baze can't be felt and there is no feeling of Baze, Baze can only be experienced as a thought or a sensation.
But in the midst of your everyday life, when not thinking about this, what do you feel yourself to be?

Does it FEEL that I am thinking?
Does it FEEL that I am the one making decision?
Does it FEEL that I am walking, I am driving, I am eating my dinner, I am washing my teeth?
Does it FEEL that I am feeling emotions and sensations?
Does it FEEL that I am making decisions?
Does it FEEL that I am choosing in the morning what to wear, I’m choosing what to say to others, I’m choosing whether to reply to this post or not?


Please observe what is happening in the midst of daily life. And write what you can notice in your everyday life. That is what we have to work with.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Sat May 30, 2020 2:03 am

Hi Vivien,

To be completely honest when I first read the questions, I knew and I had this feeling that sometimes in everyday life I still feel that this I is doing something or more like it is not completely gone. Looking back on the day I can see that everything was done pretty automatic and that sometimes I had to do some self inquiry to remind myself that everything is just happening. Sitting alone and answering this questions to myself I can see that I am not doing anything, but in the midst of everyday life I get into different situations, conversations, planning or maybe pressure to make some immediate decisions that I forget about all this.
But in the midst of your everyday life, when not thinking about this, what do you feel yourself to be?
I don't know what I really am, I just know what I am not. I can tell you what I know but not from my direct experience :).

Thank you,

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Sat May 30, 2020 2:54 am

Hi Baze,

The impression I get from your replies is that you are investigating things on the ‘level of the head’, investigating thinking and not really investigating the felt sense of me, on the level of the body (but please correct me if I’m wrong).

The self is not just simply a thought, but it’s very much a felt sense in the body. It’s a feeling, literally a sensation.
Just observe this in your daily life, that it FEELS that I am inside the body, it feels like that I am experiencing through the body the world out there. I am somewhere in the chest and/or in the head, looking out through the eyes.

Find this sense of me in the body.
Where is it?
How does this feel?
V: But in the midst of your everyday life, when not thinking about this, what do you feel yourself to be?
B: I don't know what I really am, I just know what I am not. I can tell you what I know but not from my direct experience :)
Baze, with my above question I did not intend to imply that there is an actual real self, which can be discovered and said that ‘this is what I really am’. Not at all. What I wanted to point to you that this seeming self appears as a sensation felt in the body, hence the question ‘what do you feel yourself to be?”.

Have you had the assumption that there is a really self, and I can figure out what I really am?

Please look into this with honestly.

Do you hope that as the result of this investigation you could find you ‘what I really am’?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Sun May 31, 2020 9:50 pm

Hi VIvien,

Sorry for the late reply I wasn't feeling okay this few days.
The impression I get from your replies is that you are investigating things on the ‘level of the head’, investigating thinking and not really investigating the felt sense of me, on the level of the body (but please correct me if I’m wrong).
Yes looking back it was more thinking, because I had this thought that self can't be sensed.

Find this sense of me in the body.
Where is it?
How does this feel?
This sense of me in the body is where my attention goes, all over the body. Yes it feels like I'm in a body, experiencing the outside world. The feeling is like a sensation or tingling something like that.
Have you had the assumption that there is a really self, and I can figure out what I really am?
No I didn't have the assumption that there really is a self, but I thought I can figure out what I really am because I thought your question implied that. It was just a misunderstanding, sorry.
Do you hope that as the result of this investigation you could find you ‘what I really am’?
Looking now I can see that deep down I want to know what I really am, and yes I know that i don't have to have any expectations. I will try to look more through my direct experience then thinking.

Thank you,

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:18 am

Hi Baze,
I will try to look more through my direct experience then thinking.
Yes, please do so. Looking at experience is essential. You cannot think yourself into seeing no self. It’s impossible.
Looking now I can see that deep down I want to know what I really am, and yes I know that i don't have to have any expectations.
But what if there is no I at all, that could ‘am’ or be? The whole point of this investigation is to see that there is literally nothing that can be identified and said: ‘this is what I am’. Since there is no I whatsoever that could be anything. It’s about seeing that the word I, literally doesn’t point to anything in reality.
Yes it feels like I'm in a body, experiencing the outside world. The feeling is like a sensation or tingling something like that.
Please focus on this feeling in the midst of your everyday life as often as possible. Look at it with curiosity, as if you were a scientist who just discovered some unusual phenomenon, and you would like to know it better.

So, as you FEEL this ‘sense of me’ being inside the body, investigate:

How do you know that this feeling/sensation = me?

Search through the whole body by FEELING, do you find a person inside?

Is this feeling/sensation in charge of the body?
Is this sensation moving the body?

What makes the body move?


Be very careful not to think about the answers, but rather investigate your immediate raw experience.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Mon Jun 01, 2020 1:21 am

I would like to add something. It’s very important that you write what FEELS TRUE in your everyday life, and not what you THINK how things are. It doesn’t really matter if you understand no-self intellectually, while you still FEEL in your everyday life that I am being inside the body, separated by the skin from the outside world, I feel MY emotions, I think, I move, I decide, I choose, etc.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:43 am

Hi Vivien,
But what if there is no I at all, that could ‘am’ or be? The whole point of this investigation is to see that there is literally nothing that can be identified and said: ‘this is what I am’. Since there is no I whatsoever that could be anything. It’s about seeing that the word I, literally doesn’t point to anything in reality.
Yes I know and I see that, I was thinking more like what is left, if this I doesn't point to anything in reality.
How do you know that this feeling/sensation = me?
Because I can only experience my feeling/sensation in the body, I can't feel the sensation in the feet or the arms in anyone else.
Search through the whole body by FEELING, do you find a person inside?
No, no person inside, only heart beating, chest and stomach filling in and out with air, sensations in the arms, in the feet, feeling hot or cold, feeling pain or pleasure.
Is this feeling/sensation in charge of the body?
Is this sensation moving the body?

What makes the body move?
This feeling/sensation is not in charge of the body, I can feel the sensation of my heart beating for example but I don't make my heart beat, it does it's job by itself.
I had a hard time trying to see what makes the body moves. Every movement looks like it is done instinctively, like it was learned before and it knows what to do. Thought comes, fingers are typing, sensations to scratch the arms or legs, scratching happens. But when I become mindful of the movement I don't really know what makes it move, I can say in my head lift the arm but it won't move just like that, it needs something like force or energy to move.

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:24 am

Hi Baze,
V: How do you know that this feeling/sensation = me?
B: Because I can only experience my feeling/sensation in the body, I can't feel the sensation in the feet or the arms in anyone else.
Dear Baze, this reply is purely intellectual. Just the result of thinking, and not looking at the feeling/sensation and investigating it on the level of experience.

If you experience the feeling/sensation, then how could you be that same feeling/sensation? Do you see the faulty of this logic?

You cannot get anywhere with thinking and logical conclusions. It’s a complete dead-end.

You LITERALLY have to investigate your own experience in order to see that what you THINK and believe in (you above reply) can stand up to the scrutiny.

Put the attention on this feeling/sensation.
And while you FEEL this sensation, investigate if this feeling/sensation is an actual person, who is feeling, thinking, deciding, doing things?

Since you believe yourself to be a person, who feels, thinks, decides and does things, right?
If you believe that are all of the above, then investigate if that feeling/sensation can actually DO all of these.
If not, how could that feeling/sensation be you? How?
This feeling/sensation is not in charge of the body, I can feel the sensation of my heart beating for example but I don't make my heart beat, it does it's job by itself.
If this feeling/sensation is not in charge of the body, then how could it be YOU?

Do you see that you haven’t really investigated this, but you just wrote down your beliefs and assumptions?

I had a hard time trying to see what makes the body moves.
How do you know that there is anything moving the body? What if there is nothing moving the body, but it just moves on its own?

Let’s go back to your first reply again:
B: Because I can only experience my feeling/sensation in the body, I can't feel the sensation in the feet or the arms in anyone else.
The body is here.
There are feeling and sensations in the body.
And there are other bodies too.
And there are feeling and sensations in those bodies as well.

But the question is not how can one body could feel the other body’s sensations… not at all.
The question is whether there is an ACTUAL REAL PERSON, a FEELER INSIDE any body at all.

Non separation is not about gaining some special abilities to be able to feel other bodies, or somehow being able to merge with other bodies and become one, or feel all the bodies from one single source. None of these.

Rather if there is ANYONE inside the body at all.
If there is an FEELER at all, who/what supposedly could feel the sensations in the body.
Or sensations simply just there, without happening to anyone.
Can you see the difference?

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:05 am

Hi Vivien,
If you experience the feeling/sensation, then how could you be that same feeling/sensation? Do you see the faulty of this logic?
Omg how did I not notice this?? it is so obvious, I am FEELING this sensations, I can only notice and know this sensation, how it can be ME? I see now that some of my previous answers are contradicting.
And while you FEEL this sensation, investigate if this feeling/sensation is an actual person, who is feeling, thinking, deciding, doing things?

Since you believe yourself to be a person, who feels, thinks, decides and does things, right?
If you believe that are all of the above, then investigate if that feeling/sensation can actually DO all of these.
If not, how could that feeling/sensation be you? How?
This sensation can not do any of these things and no it cannot be me. This sensation is not an actual person who is feeling, thinking or doing things, "I" can only know or notice my thoughts or feelings or sensations. So there is only thinking, feeling, sensing happening. Wow I still can't believe how I didn't see this at first :).
How do you know that there is anything moving the body? What if there is nothing moving the body, but it just moves on its own?
In my previous answer about what moves the body I got confused when I said MINDFUL of the movement of the body. I see now that same mindfulness is actually no different than noticing the sensation/feeling in the body. The body is just moving, "I" was just mindful of the movement of the body. Language is confusing the mind sometimes :).
Can you see the difference?
Haha, yes I can see the difference now :).

Thank you

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Wed Jun 03, 2020 1:25 am

Hi Baze,

You did an excellent investigation :)
Language is confusing the mind sometimes
Do you think that there is such thing as a mind?
How does mind experienced in this very moment?
What it is in this moment, as you observe it?
This sensation can not do any of these things and no it cannot be me. This sensation is not an actual person who is feeling, thinking or doing things, "I" can only know or notice my thoughts or feelings or sensations.
Nice :) Now let’s go a step further.

What is it exactly that is noticing thoughts, feelings and sensations?
Is this noticing a doing or a happening?


Please look at these as often as possible in the midst of your daily life. Let me know what you find.

Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Wed Jun 03, 2020 11:18 pm

Hi Vivien,
Do you think that there is such thing as a mind?
How does mind experienced in this very moment?
What it is in this moment, as you observe it?
There is no such thing as mind, there is only thoughts and images. Observing it is seeing thoughts happening, planning happening, one thought connecting with another creating stories, images appearing occasionally.
What is it exactly that is noticing thoughts, feelings and sensations?
Is this noticing a doing or a happening?
i can't say that it is anything exactly, it is more like no thing, it just is?
Noticing is just a happening, whatever is needed in the situation noticing happens, if pain appears noticing that pain happens, if thinking is needed noticing thoughts happens, if reading is needed noticing letters and words happens.

Baze

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Vivien
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Vivien » Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:44 am

Hi Baze,
There is no such thing as mind, there is only thoughts and images. Observing it is seeing thoughts happening, planning happening, one thought connecting with another creating stories, images appearing occasionally.
Yes. Mind is just a concept. An imagined placeholder of thoughts, where thoughts are made and coming from :)
Noticing is just a happening, whatever is needed in the situation noticing happens, if pain appears noticing that pain happens, if thinking is needed noticing thoughts happens, if reading is needed noticing letters and words happens.
Nice observations. Noticing is also just happening.

Is there anything that doesn’t happen on its own?
Is there any doing at all?

Is there a sense of a doer in your everyday life when not looking?
Does it feel like that I am doing, deciding and controlling things?

If yes, where does this sense of a doer feels in the body?

Find the sense of ownership, does this sensation own anything?

Does life happen to sensations or AS sensations?

Does life happen to a sense of me or AS the sensation + label ‘me’?

Does sensation of a doer make anything happen?


Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Bazex
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Re: Searching for my true nature and reality

Postby Bazex » Fri Jun 05, 2020 12:41 am

Hi Vivien,
Is there anything that doesn’t happen on its own?
Is there any doing at all?
No there is no doing at all, everything is happening on it's own. No one doing anything just things, thoughts, sensations, happening.
Is there a sense of a doer in your everyday life when not looking?
Does it feel like that I am doing, deciding and controlling things?
No, not at all. There is only doing and deciding but no I doing all those things.
Does life happen to sensations or AS sensations?

Does life happen to a sense of me or AS the sensation + label ‘me’?

Does sensation of a doer make anything happen?
Life is happening as sensations, in everyday life after every doing comes the label me or I to claim ownership of everything happening around. Sensation of a doer can't make anything happen, because there is only noticing sensation happening.

Baze


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