Explore

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Explore

Postby JonathanR » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:46 pm

Hi Ramon

Thanks for posting a few, times.
. I guess there is some getting used to having no more drive or structure. Like getting retired.
It may not always feel like this. This is exactly how it was for 'me' in the months after the illusion was seen. And I really wondered if motivation for working would ever return.

Fear-driven motivation never returned but new dynamics came into play. But as I mention this I can only say how its unfolded for me.

For one thing, there was the motivation to guide, which I'd never have expected. And then, after 30 years of neglecting to exercise I started to do it every day, lost weight, felt amazing. The previous version of Jon would never have embraced these things. But as I say, it's only the way things were experienced here.

I appreciate everything you've said in describing how things are for you now. About the appearance./reappearance of 'self'... Is it clear that this is not an actual entity that 'exists' for real somewhere, that is really 'you'?

If you are not that entity, what are you /what is happening?

Best wishes

Jon

User avatar
Ramonlull
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:10 am

Re: Explore

Postby Ramonlull » Sat Dec 28, 2019 4:34 pm

Dear Jon.
Thank you for sharing.
Either there is a strugle with time or it is not a 100% clear that I am not an existing entity.
Time makes it appear real sometimes.
If I am not an entity existing, who or what am I?
Good question to mull over.
Thanx. R

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Explore

Postby JonathanR » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:17 pm

Hi Ramon

Time is a very interesting one which we can look at.

Can you say more about the struggle with time?

Thanks,

Jon

User avatar
Ramonlull
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:10 am

Re: Explore

Postby Ramonlull » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:51 pm

Dear Jon.
First question, who or what am I?
No idea. I would like to write I feel one with all, but I don't. I do feel less separate, but the experience of individuality has not been replaced with anything yet. This seems to be a phase of deconstruction.
Second question, the struggle with time.
It seems to happen. There still seems to be a linear time. And more confusing, there seems to be a past of humankind. There may be just this moment. But it is rarely perceived/experienced.
(Linear) time seems to be the main contributor in upholding the inegrity of the illusion/dream/maya.
For example, there seems to have been a time before waking in the dream. Now there seems to be a time afterwards. And there may be a time in the future of waking up from the dream, to use Jeds terminology.
There is a strong but unfocused feeling that this is a part of the whole hoax. But I can' t grasp or specify it.
As long as there is time there is some individual story, some lingering sense of self, even a selfless self.
Best regards, Ramon

User avatar
Ramonlull
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:10 am

Re: Explore

Postby Ramonlull » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:26 pm

Time is context.

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Explore

Postby JonathanR » Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:45 am

Hi Ramon

I understand what you're saying about the appearance of time.

But right now, this instant, where is 'future'? Where is 'past'?

Are they actually real, right now?

And actually, what is it that is supposed to be 'the pesent'?
. For example, there seems to have been a time before waking in the dream. Now there seems to be a time afterwards. And there may be a time in the future of waking up from the dream, to use Jeds terminology
'Seems' is a good way to speak of these ideas.

What is time?

Happy New Year :)

Jon

User avatar
Ramonlull
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:10 am

Re: Explore

Postby Ramonlull » Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:37 am

Dear Jon.
In a discussiin with my wife it came to me that my problem with time is not really a problem, but a crutch.
Time helps the personality to keep things together.
For the 'me'.
What is really happening is disintegration. Space and time are flying away from me. Like in the big bang image.
This is a feeling akin to fear.
The ego is afraid. The new part isnt.
The ego likes time and space, because they give context and structure and routine.
The new part feels it is a hoax and tries to shed these beliefssystems.
It also came to me that what ever question I pose gets an answer. Either immediately or in a few hours or days.
This is also how this conversation here works.
You ask a question, then I ask it / questioning happens, then the answer comes.
Could you tell me a little more about this forum, please? It seems incredible that sth like this exists. On the other hand it makes sense.
Best regards, Ramon

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Explore

Postby JonathanR » Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:00 am

Hi Ramon

I appreciate everything you've said.

. Time helps the personality to keep things together.
For the 'me'.
What is really happening is disintegration. Space and time are flying away from me. Like in the big bang image.
Yes. 'Time' is one quite major aspect the illusion in which 'self' would seem to be a real entity, bound into linear or three-dimensional space and time, like a train on railway tracks.
. This is a feeling akin to fear.
The ego is afraid. The new part isnt.
The ego likes time and space, because they give context and structure and routine.
The new part feels it is a hoax and tries to shed these beliefssystems.
Yes. What you describe is very familiar.
. Could you tell me a little more about this forum, please? It seems incredible that sth like this exists. On the other hand it makes sense.
Sure. It might be best if you ask questions about it though. There's a lot that I could say. At the same time it is remarkably simple, in that guides just invite visitors to look at their own experience. It works. Some people do just look and it's seen that there was never an entity at the centre of things, controlling and deciding and making everything happen.

All best

Jon

User avatar
Ramonlull
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:10 am

Re: Explore

Postby Ramonlull » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:53 pm

Dear Jon.
How is it possible to assist some one to crash the gate or to find the gate, or whatever this site attempts? What does it attempt?
Passing through does happen or does not happen.
Is this not just ego again trying to accelerate this?
All this does not make sense to anyone intellectually. And once it is experienced it is not needed, except maybe as an orientation.
I also sometimes feel an urge to share or assist or explain. But who wants to do this and why? The ego constantly searches for sth to do. To do sth meaningful.
But there is no meaning.
This is no criticism. It is great that the site and the service exists. But why?
The same could be asked about any kind of therapy, too. What for? Why? For whom?
Best wishes, Christian

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Explore

Postby JonathanR » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:37 am

Hi Ramon
How is it possible to assist some one to crash the gate or to find the gate, or whatever this site attempts? What does it attempt?
Perfectly possible, provided that the one seeking to crash the gate is willing at some stage to notice what's already really happening (and really not happening). If there's a willingness to 'see', guiding will be almost unnecessary, or only a little will be needed. If there is some motivation to see the illusion then with some encouragement and some exercises and maybe a little conversation it may well happen. There is no guarantee. Some people are quite afraid to look. Others may be more intrested in debating or arguing and eventually stop writing.

We attempt to assist those who would like to investigate 'self' to notice what's actually happening and what only appears to be going on. That fixed ideas of a separate controlling self, possibly identified with 'my body' or 'my awareness' or 'my ego', 'my mind' are only referring to an illusory 'me'.
Passing through does happen or does not happen.
It's possible to say that, yes.
Is this not just ego again trying to accelerate this?
That could happen. Quite easily. Unless its doesn't.
This is no criticism. It is great that the site and the service exists. But why?
The same could be asked about any kind of therapy, too. What for? Why? For whom?
And yet there are over twenty waiting now at LU Gate to investigate. Why is academic. We either feel like guiding or investigating, or not.

Jon

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Explore

Postby JonathanR » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:56 pm

Hi,

How is it going?

Jon

User avatar
Ramonlull
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:10 am

Re: Explore

Postby Ramonlull » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:36 pm

Dear Jon.
Great. Thank you.
No questions presently.
Except the one with assisting someone in health or spiritual welfare/ progress.
I know it works, but it is a paradox. There is no reason it should work and many reason it should not.
Best wishes, R

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Explore

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:00 pm

Hi Ramon,

If you feel motivated to guide then I'd like to ask you to answer a few questions, please?
You may or may not feel like answering these but it's important if you are going to guide at some stage.

. Here they are, six in all. Feel free to answer them in two posts, or split them up, one at a time if you prefer..

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Thank you.

Jon

User avatar
Ramonlull
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:10 am

Re: Explore

Postby Ramonlull » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:48 pm

Dear Jon.
Good questions you guys and gals have.
Not easy to put into words, but it is a good exercise.
I try to answer them from my experience of the last 7 months, especially the last 2 months.

1. There is no true self. There is a personality that feels real, yet it is not the self. There is no higher or subconscious self either. There is experiencing personality.
Was there ever? - is a question impinging on the subject of time, which is being explored presently. I cannot answer it now honestly from experience.
2. The illusion of separation is a kind of habit or brainwashing or imitation game. It is acquired for personalities to interact. It is not needed when being alone, viz. no other human beings nearby. It arises with thinking, emotions, speach, worries, fears, hopes, sense of time etc. Otherwise it is not present and not needed. When I do nothing it is gone. The personality does not disappear but is disengaged.
3. It feels disorienting and liberating at the same time.
It is different every day, every week.
Different to before this dialogue is that I had trouble putting it into words and communicating it. This is much easier now.
4. To realize that there is no one home. I liked this wording from David Carse but one day it was realized what he meant.
5. There is no dicernable free will. No decisions or choice. Things happen. I do not know why and how.
Responsibility is a bit more tricky. To feel 'the flow' and go with it does not mean one can do anything or cannot do anything or can just sit around and do nothing or commit a crime etc. There are laws in this reality. As long as one plays the reality game it is better to assume that there is responsibilty/ karma.
Example: there seems to be a choice for my personality to do or not to do a certain kind of work. For example therapist. Its not a bad line of work. So ok why not? It feels like a choice continuing to work or sit at the beach watching the waves all day long. It does not matter. Or to do course X or not to do it because it is just another dream system in the end. It does not matter. Unfolding happens. Shedding happens. No matter what the personality does or thinks it decides. The same goes for guiding or not guiding in this forum.
6. I read "Are you dead?" at first. Maybe. No. Nothing to add.

Best wishes. Ramon

User avatar
JonathanR
Posts: 4314
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:14 pm

Re: Explore

Postby JonathanR » Mon Jan 06, 2020 11:11 pm

Hi Ramon,

Great answers. Thank you.
. Was there ever? - is a question impinging on the subject of time, which is being explored presently. I cannot answer it now honestly from experience.
Right. Fair enough.
. To feel 'the flow' and go with it does not mean one can do anything or cannot do anything or can just sit around and do nothing or commit a crime etc.
Very interesting. Yes. It can sometimes happen that no choice or free will is interpreted as meaning that one cannot do anything. But in that case there is still the idea of a 'me' that 'can't do'. You're right. It's neither doing anything nor not doing anything.

Thanks again.

Now I'd like to invite fellow guides to take a look at our chat in case they may have further questions. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. And it may take them a couple of days to let us know. Don't disappear ;-}

All the best

Jon


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest