Alekx

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Alekx

Postby Nemo » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:52 am

Hi Alekx, welcome.
What are you looking for?
"Having the answer isn't enough. You have to do the math." - Jed McKenna
http://nemonavigator.blogspot.com/

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Re: Alekx

Postby Alekx » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:53 am

I talked to phi and I want to answer the questions.

Thanks.

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Re: Alekx

Postby Nemo » Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:56 am

Okay, let's start with this one.
Do you exist?
"Having the answer isn't enough. You have to do the math." - Jed McKenna
http://nemonavigator.blogspot.com/

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Re: Alekx

Postby Alekx » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:49 pm

I think I'm very contaminated with 'others' beliefs and opinions, so I can retain in my memory from read other posts and replys, I have read this is not true somewhere else, so I don't know if I have my direct experience (hence opinion), so I will tell you, to be really honest... don't know.

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Re: Alekx

Postby Alekx » Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:46 am

I don't know why today a BIG BEETLE land into my house, i'm not so much of a supersitious guy but I actually experienced so much of a sinchronicity after reading Conversations with god Book#1... I think it's a message but I don't know what this s**t means.

When I was doing my boxing work training I felt so fu***ng lonley but just dured one second... then a BIG space within me arised and I felt fear, and then I let go, and I wanted to cry but I didn't do anything.

Of the question, Do I exist?... Well, when I felt that voracious void in that moment it really doesn't matter if I existed or not... not because I felt like a lonley victim but because I felt a big sense of peace after that. Don't know what it is, or if it has any correlation whatsoever.

I'm sick of detours, I will experience truth.

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Re: Alekx

Postby Nemo » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:52 am

It's actually impossible to experience anything but truth.
If something wasn't actually real, how would we experience it?
The illusion part is in the misidentification or misinterpretation of truth.
I think I'm very contaminated with 'others' beliefs and opinions
Yeah, that is something that happens. And it's okay too, as long as you are aware of it, which you seem to be.
It's not necessary to try and delete all that stuff if it's seen for what it is.

Your direct experience contains other people's beliefs and opinions, not the other way around.

So, you have all this second-hand information in your mind. There's no reason this should get in the way of looking at what is really happening in this moment. Just keep your inquiry honest. "Is this something I have only read, or have I actually seen it?" Keep it really simple, look at what is going on around you, and not just at what is going on in the mind. There really is no line between internal and external.

Right now, Alekx, when you use the words "me" or "I", what is being referring to?
"Having the answer isn't enough. You have to do the math." - Jed McKenna
http://nemonavigator.blogspot.com/

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Re: Alekx

Postby Alekx » Sat Oct 08, 2011 3:50 am

Right now, Alekx, when you use the words "me" or "I", what is being referring to?
Thanks for the reply Nemo.

Mostly Feelings , sometimes ideas tha I get when ask for questions, like today... I felt a tingly spark in my back when I honestly looked around and ask, WHAT IS THIS? the time seemed to pass so FAST while experiencing external world, and then proceed to take a view with fresh eyes (not that I was aware off) but only lasted like 2 or 3 seconds, then the autopilot viewer and mental rant, continued again.

Yesterday, I avoided people, and the more I avoid them the more they manifest in some strange ways, like the ladies. I think I have a pent up anger towards them I don't know why... In some part I love them but at the same time I hate them... this is something that was in my mind today ruminating, I think this thing have years running in the back of the mind, like seeking aprobation, trying to get their attention, sending them mean looks, completley ingnoring them... and as you said in the reallity there is no difference in external and internal, but if I have conflicting sensations and thoughts about it in my body about the woman, why they keep manifesting. Maybe it's fear of rejection, maybe is crap.

Now, I think this is a small but annoying obstacle that must be shredded to pieces, I am neutral about it, the expenditure of energy in this thing, it's crazy, It would be better spent using auto digesting myself. :D

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Re: Alekx

Postby Nemo » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:23 am

Hey there Alekx.
I'm really sorry about the delay in my reply, I've been a little busy.

This stuff about emotional reactions regarding women is a good place to investigate identification.
These sorts of things are patterns that are built up over time, through environmental and circumstantial factors, would you agree? And at this point it doesn't really matter too much about painstakingly dissecting a lot of these factors or causes, they are just a story about "life" that became a story about Alekx, and they can be easily indulged more than they need to be. And it all happened somewhere in the past. A story about the past exists only as thoughts in the now. Can you call that story you? Of course there is no need to discount the past completely, a lot of it is necessary context that this present moment is related to - it's only the identification and attachment with past and patterns that needs to be looked at.
When I look at the story of my past, it is a very wild, crazy, dramatic roller-coaster of an adventure. But these days when I think about it, it is not too much different from thinking about a movie I might have watched a week ago. It still even has the potential to conjure emotions or empathy for the characters sometimes, as any good movie does. But it is only seen as just a story, it does not feel like "me" at all any more.
When we have spoken you have mentioned to me your interests in autolysis and "self-digestion". This is what I hope I can be helpful in guiding you with here. As I said, I worked on autolysis myself. I see this as interactive autolysis.
So, autolysis is a process of finding out what's true, by throwing bits of your self into the fire, one by one. Yeah? Now, there is no right or wrong way to go about this liberation stuff. If you're sincere, honest, dedicated and focused, you can do it. It will get done. This emotional "pattern" you have regarding women is like one of the many pieces of your self that need to be examined to be thrown in the fire or digested, yes?
Now, check this out. There are many many "pieces" and aspects and beliefs and patterns, etc, that are attached to, identified with and make up, Alekx, and this illusory self. So you want to rip them off one by one. But!
What if you could turn this whole process on it's head, and instead of painfully pulling the thorns out of the toe one by one, you could just remove the toe?
Now, I'm not suggesting that the thorns - the pieces attributed to being "Alekx" and all the associated problems - are just going to instantly disappear by doing this. But, it is quite important to enter into this process with this one very large and very crucial step - the foundation on which liberation or enlightenment is based. Illusion of self is that from which all other illusions/delusions operate from and are spawned by. It is the root cause of suffering. In seeing through it, the digesting of old patterns and beliefs can be done from the most honest and authentic perspective available. Think about it, how honest and effective is a delusion - self - going to be about observing itself and reality? Take that away and truth, life, honesty are running this investigation.

So, let's do this.
I asked "when you use the words "me" or "I", what is being referring to?" and you replied "mostly feelings". Can you examine this a little more and elaborate? Look at these feelings. Where do they originate? Who feels them? Who or what makes them happen?
"Having the answer isn't enough. You have to do the math." - Jed McKenna
http://nemonavigator.blogspot.com/

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Re: Alekx

Postby Alekx » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:45 am

So, let's do this.
I asked "when you use the words "me" or "I", what is being referring to?" and you replied "mostly feelings". Can you examine this a little more and elaborate? Look at these feelings. Where do they originate? Who feels them? Who or what makes them happen?
YQ; Where do they originate?
MA: Yeah, I looked to the feelings, or more so felt the feeling... They got originated by a tought, what tought? of whom? I really don't know, it's a little hard to grasp for me... maybe it's a reaction of the succint event that was developing, and then it went through the filter of an imperfect tought, about other tought, and about other tought, that is not me. (Altought here honestly, I sense that I am pointing to what I should be experiencing, rather than the real experience of this... I think I triying to convince myself, and then I got confused)

When I start to ponder in this answers I feel myself trying to convince myself of something I am not experiencing directly...It's like when you enter in a calculator 2 + 2, and you know the answer it's 4, but... surprisingly the calculator did't display the answer, after you pressed Intro or =, you just know it has to be 4 but you don't see.

So I don't know what's happening here. (I hope I explained well, too)

YQ: Who feels them?...
MA: At first glance it seems that the observer that I only know as 'like (me)' is experimenting those feelings. But as always, I am ahead of myself, maybe for detriment. You told me (and I read that form McKenna too) that the 'I' I tihnk of me is not me... so WHO's feeling the feelings?... This is honestly, beyond my comprehension right now, I think I'm regurgitating 2nd hand experiences & juggling with semantics here, confused... Please be ruthless.

YQ: Who or what makes them happen? (feelings)
MA: Who?... well the thing that pop into my mind it's, events and interpretations (toughts, beliefs) about the events.

Again, thanks for your response Nemo, and please, do not feel sorry for that delay.

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Re: Alekx

Postby Nemo » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:52 am

You're starting to look, and investigate, and that's great. But you are getting caught up in thoughts, and thinking thoughts about thoughts. When this happens just try to pull back into the simplicity of looking at what's right in front of you. Thoughts can and will continue on in the background but you can waste a lot of time following them on wild goose chases. Reality isn't complicated, it's the simplest thing there is. It's true nature, and it's what is happening everywhere all the time.

Let's look at those questions again. Where do feelings originate? If you can examine a real life example, of a feeling happening right now, even better. Was this feeling manifested by an internal being or source, a "you"? Did it originate inside "you", or was it external influences? Do you own this feeling? Does it need you to cause it and/or feel it to exist? Is it possible that experience can exist without an experiencer?
When entering 2+2 into the calculator, forget that you already know the answer is 4. The answer could be anything, and you will never find out what the truth is unless you can do the math yourself, and be honest about whatever answers you come up with. Don't guess, and don't just take anyone else's word for it. Or there will always be potential for doubt.

If you look at direct experience, right now, what can the senses verify as being real? Furniture, walls, floor, objects? The body? Sounds, textures, colours? Emotions? And thoughts too, right? So thoughts themselves are real phenomena. It's what's in a thought that might not be real - that is, not verifiable when compared to reality. How about self, are there thoughts about a self? Can you actually find a self anywhere in reality though? Take a good hard look. Don't worry about semantics, don't worry about secondhand experiences, it's all just more thought. Let it go. Actually LOOK at what is real, right now.

So often we have all these beliefs that we never even stop to think about or call in to question. And often this can be because we are not even aware that these are our beliefs. They are so deeply rooted that we simply take them for granted. Self is like the Grand Poobah of these beliefs. The one that reigns over all others. But no more, we are going to hold it up in the light and see it for what it really is.

This is what you need to do. Find it, and expose it. Systematically go through each place, concept, or belief in which self might potentially be dwelling, and see if it's there. Shine the light of truth in every dark corner. Leave no place left for it to hide, no rock unturned. It's the only way you can be sure. This does not need to be a particularly long and painstaking process, but it does require courage, focus, and honesty. Once you see it, though, it can never be unseen. So look at direct experience. Look for a self. Tell me what you find.
"Having the answer isn't enough. You have to do the math." - Jed McKenna
http://nemonavigator.blogspot.com/

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Re: Alekx

Postby Alekx » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:03 am

Q: Where do feelings originate? If you can examine a real life example, of a feeling happening right now, even better. Was this feeling manifested by an internal being or source, a "you"? Did it originate inside "you", or was it external influences?
A: Oh no I don't indentify with the feeling, It just feels right in the gut.
It's hard for me to track down the origin of the feeling, the only thing Is that I just got alert or more so 'aware' of that, when I feel the void in the gut, or the wrenching in the throat, but then it passes.


Q: Do you own this feeling?
A: Not really I have been practicing the leting go the sedona method teaches and it has worked just fine of letting go issue, altough the images of seeking aprobation, or trying to impress 'others' the 'triggers' still dance in the mind, but without emotional reaction, sometimes. I think I need to work some more with this.

Q: Does it need you to cause it and/or feel it to exist? Is it possible that experience can exist without an experiencer?
A: I think it need a 'me' to cause it when the images in the brain/mind; happens, so the feeling is triggered sometimes with this images, or movies.

Q: Is it possible that experience can exist without an experiencer?
A: I think yes, but It needs a reference point... to exist.
If you look at direct experience, right now, what can the senses verify as being real? Furniture, walls, floor, objects? The body? Sounds, textures, colours? Emotions? And thoughts too, right? So thoughts themselves are real phenomena. It's what's in a thought that might not be real - that is, not verifiable when compared to reality.
Yeah sense of sight... all common sensorial perception the human has, and the subjective internal experience of the 'thoughts'...
Wow... So, the content of the tought it's just an illusion... but...
Is created by whom? What If I can imagine a tree in the mind... so who's doing the tree? I know this is not
reallity but more like a internal representation of a tree, not a 'real tree', Is this important?
Q: How about self, are there thoughts about a self? Can you actually find a self anywhere in reality though? Take a good hard look. Don't worry about semantics, don't worry about secondhand experiences, it's all just more thought. Let it go. Actually LOOK at what is real, right now.
A: You mean self, like a person or an entity? no... there's nothing...
This does not need to be a particularly long and painstaking process, but it does require courage, focus, and honesty.
This!... I think I'm getting a little caught up in the melodramatic portrait of enlightenment McKenna does of the 'waking up'.
and This! Courage, Focus, honesty-

I'm not shure if some parts totally click in me.

I will reread this one, with more (Courage, Focus, honesty-)

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Re: Alekx

Postby Nemo » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:56 am

Hey Alekx.
Q: Do you own this feeling?
A: Not really I have been practicing the leting go the sedona method teaches and it has worked just fine of letting go issue, altough the images of seeking aprobation, or trying to impress 'others' the 'triggers' still dance in the mind, but without emotional reaction, sometimes. I think I need to work some more with this.
Cool. I'm not familiar with the sedona method. If it works, keep going. Also, "letting go" becomes far easier once self illusion dissolves, and it's realised that any holding on is an illusion too, as there isn't really anyone there to hold on. The urge to try and impress others can still come up, but that's all it is, an urge. Not your urge, no you trying to impress others, just an urge standing all on it's own. Just a thought. And, as you said, "the content of the thought it's just an illusion."
Q: Does it need you to cause it and/or feel it to exist? Is it possible that experience can exist without an experiencer?
A: I think it need a 'me' to cause it when the images in the brain/mind; happens, so the feeling is triggered sometimes with this images, or movies.
Look at this a bit more closely. Images in the brain/mind happen. Is there a you behind them, do you consciously decide to will the images into existence, or do the images just appear on their own? So why is there this illusion of a 'me' causing things...?
See if this is true: Does the "I" thought come in after the images appear and try to take credit, try to make sense of things by attaching ownership and identification with the images? Take a look, find out what is happening for sure.
Q: Is it possible that experience can exist without an experiencer?
A: I think yes, but It needs a reference point... to exist.
Sure, there appears to be a reference point. But is the reference point any more a self than the body?
If you look at direct experience, right now, what can the senses verify as being real? Furniture, walls, floor, objects? The body? Sounds, textures, colours? Emotions? And thoughts too, right? So thoughts themselves are real phenomena. It's what's in a thought that might not be real - that is, not verifiable when compared to reality.
Yeah sense of sight... all common sensorial perception the human has, and the subjective internal experience of the 'thoughts'...
Wow... So, the content of the tought it's just an illusion... but...
Is created by whom? What If I can imagine a tree in the mind... so who's doing the tree? I know this is not
reallity but more like a internal representation of a tree, not a 'real tree', Is this important?
Who IS doing the tree? Is internal really separate from external? If eyes had never seen a tree externally would mind be able to create the image of a tree internally? If there is a separate entity inside who can decide to imagine things, can you ask him to imagine something made up entirely of components he's never seen before? Can he think of a colour that doesn't already exist?
Are you doing the tree, or is everything but you - life, environment, circumstance - doing the tree?
Q: How about self, are there thoughts about a self? Can you actually find a self anywhere in reality though? Take a good hard look. Don't worry about semantics, don't worry about secondhand experiences, it's all just more thought. Let it go. Actually LOOK at what is real, right now.
A: You mean self, like a person or an entity? no... there's nothing...
This is wonderful! And not just something you've heard, something you've found out to be true in personal experience. Excellent, you're doing really well.
This!... I think I'm getting a little caught up in the melodramatic portrait of enlightenment McKenna does of the 'waking up'.
Yes, it's really easy to get caught up in someone else's portrait and experience of enlightenment (particularly McKenna's) and have it become a hinderance on your own.
You know how Jed talks about that old Buddhist saying, "If you meet The Buddha along the road, kill him" ?
Well, this is the point along your road where you meet Jed. It's time to slice his fucking head off! :)
and This! Courage, Focus, honesty-

I'm not shure if some parts totally click in me.

I will reread this one, with more (Courage, Focus, honesty-)
Beautiful, Alekx. Music to my ears. Take these three weapons and sharpen them, they will make quick work of destroying belief in self.

Is there a you?
"Having the answer isn't enough. You have to do the math." - Jed McKenna
http://nemonavigator.blogspot.com/

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Re: Alekx

Postby Alekx » Mon Oct 17, 2011 10:14 pm

Look at this a bit more closely. Images in the brain/mind happen. Is there a you behind them, do you consciously decide to will the images into existence, or do the images just appear on their own? So why is there this illusion of a 'me' causing things...?
See if this is true: Does the "I" thought come in after the images appear and try to take credit, try to make sense of things by attaching ownership and identification with the images? Take a look, find out what is happening for sure.
Yes it happens automatically, as allways when I turn my internal focus or conscience on the brain: it's chattering seeing images, BY IT'S OWN. Haha how fool of me thinking that I 'create' images at will. And when I'm not operating this shit keeps going; ranting, and cataloguing, judging, fantasising, hard punching imaginary people... hehhe

The images happens, so tought happens, there's no I.
Sure, there appears to be a reference point. But is the reference point any more a self than the body?
I cannot think of other reference point, other than the one you mentioning.
Who IS doing the tree? Is internal really separate from external? If eyes had never seen a tree externally would mind be able to create the image of a tree internally? If there is a separate entity inside who can decide to imagine things, can you ask him to imagine something made up entirely of components he's never seen before? Can he think of a colour that doesn't already exist?
Are you doing the tree, or is everything but you - life, environment, circumstance - doing the tree?
It's a 'conceptualization' of the external... again I am not doing anything.
Nope I cannot think/made of anything that I don't have at least one piece of information stored in my bodily senses.
Is there a you?
There is no me, when I search inside I found nothing but memories of external events, that I called me, but there's only like... How can I say it... was and is like a show and just some- 'one' -'thing' was observing/experiencing, but parents and the parents of them (no blame intended) came with names, cutesy and cosy little attachments when you said something funny when you where little, or sang some song... but heck... It's like there just where a thing inside a body experiencing external events. It's little freaky, now that I think of it. The big word here is ATTACHMENT.

Theres no me, the me I tought as me, it's just a collection of emotions & memories recalled inside the brain, sometimes in a messy way, sometimes in a ordered way... but quoteing myself... the content of a tought it's an illusion, so all that I experienced as reallity is, well; an illusion. If I remove or more so 'let go' of this memories and emotions, (the destroying process) what's is left, is truth? This is turning a little scary.

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Re: Alekx

Postby Alekx » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:42 pm

I must say I'm interested in dreams, and because for the curious note:

I dreamed about my parents died, both of them, the grief was very very painful during the dream, even now recalling the dream gets me so off balance, but I can handle it.

Also I dreamed being I was in a movie teather with them (Heh I know, the 'plato cave' Jed's version) It was SO comfortable, even in the theater whe had a cozy blanket and some delicious snacks, and yes more people.
And also we bought some tickets to a go to a very expensive concert.

I think It's the way subconsious has to get me aware like:
Hey dude realize what you are dropping... Put in balance the things you will loss... Meh... I think it's too late for that warning, and besides anything is loss.

But to be honest it's becoming a little hard.

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Re: Alekx

Postby Nemo » Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:21 am

Dreams are amazing, I absolutely love dreaming. Sometimes they seem deep, sometimes they're like a bunch of random thoughts. I can't say whether they can tell us anything. Whatever you need to be made aware of, the waking world can do just as good a job - or perhaps an even better and less cryptic one.

It stil seems you are holding on to some of Jed's ideas. What do you think you will lose? Being liberated from belief in self shows you that you never actually owned anything anyway. Your parents, your friends, your stuff, your own body, none of it yours. So you can never actually lose anything. When Jed says you lose everything it's a pointer, and I believe it is this that he is pointing to. Seeing nothing was ever yours means you lose everything. But it also means there is nothing to lose. The only thing that can really be lost is belief in self. But as you'll see, this never belonged to you either.


Your entire post before that was absolutely terrific.
There is no me, when I search inside I found nothing but memories of external events, that I called me, but there's only like... How can I say it... was and is like a show and just some- 'one' -'thing' was observing/experiencing, but parents and the parents of them (no blame intended) came with names, cutesy and cosy little attachments when you said something funny when you where little, or sang some song... but heck... It's like there just where a thing inside a body experiencing external events. It's little freaky, now that I think of it. The big word here is ATTACHMENT.

Theres no me, the me I tought as me, it's just a collection of emotions & memories recalled inside the brain, sometimes in a messy way, sometimes in a ordered way... but quoteing myself... the content of a tought it's an illusion, so all that I experienced as reallity is, well; an illusion. If I remove or more so 'let go' of this memories and emotions, (the destroying process) what's is left, is truth? This is turning a little scary.
This is it, you're looking right at it. Keep looking at this, and explain it some more. Was there ever a you? What was the trigger in seeing this? Now that you see this, what has changed?
"Having the answer isn't enough. You have to do the math." - Jed McKenna
http://nemonavigator.blogspot.com/


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