Looking for some help please

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:13 pm

PS I can't find the "I" feeling outside the body either

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:41 am

The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

There is a body. It can be seen, it can be pointed to. "I" can't "see" the brain/mind, so without drilling a hole in my skull I cant verify there's a brain in there but I'm pretty sure there is.
There is no "body". Period!
We will be looking more into this :)
You will see it yourself.



Now please take a good look and point with your index finger where you you can locate this "i" (feeling) in the body ?

Chest?
Head ?

Point there and tell me...Don't go to thought stories and take a good look and tell me please what is really (Actually) there?

There is no "I" feeling in the body so I can't point to anything. However - a feeling is abstract. So I cant point to any feeling - unless I suppose there could be a feeling of queasiness in the stomach, for example. Doesn't mean there is anything physically there actually in the stomach, just a bunch of sensations.

Thank you
So It is good that there is no "i" feeling .
Sure only sensation(s) exist.

So where are you Lynne ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Tue Sep 24, 2019 9:44 am

PS I can't find the "I" feeling outside the body either
So if you cannot find it does not exist!
That easy.

Actual experiences are

Sight
Smell
Touch sensations
Sound
Taste sensations
and thought.

Thought as a face value but not the content of the thought as we saw.

So what is the actual experinence of "me" i" "self" ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Tue Sep 24, 2019 4:40 pm

There is no "body". Period!
This is messing with my head. If I had a psychiatric evaluation right now I think I'd be committed :)
It is like "looking" for your keys in your pocket..You touch and you feel with your hands to see if they are there or not.
There IS a human body made of flesh and bone. People call it Lynne in order to identify it and make communication easier. "I" see it, I touch it. It is as real as the chair, the bed, the cat next door, the keys in the drawer. It might not be mine, or have an owner or manager, but it exists! Even you say:
Now please take a good look and point with your index finger where you you can locate this "i" (feeling) in the body ?
yet you tell me it doesn't exist?
What am "i" missing here?
So where are you Lynne
Where can I be if I don't exist?

The answer that came immediately was nowhere and everywhere at the same time.
So what is the actual experinence of "me" i" "self" ?
Logically if i/me/self does not exist it cannot experience anything. If i/me/self is a mental construct (which it must be if it doesnt exist) it is therefore just a thought. And thoughts cant have a real experience (although they might think they can).
There is no thought of "self" when there is no thought. Just actual experience. Then thought comes in and claims it as "i/me/self" but like the goldfish its a thought and not real. Therefore even when there is thought it is just actual experience.
Actual experience is happening to nobody, it is just happening. Yet..... this body (that you say doesn't exist) has a pair of ears, eyes, can sense touch etc which allows the sound, sights, touch sensations etc to be experienced.

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:30 pm

Maybe the body (sorry I know you say it doesn't exist but my perception is that it does so I can't pretend it doesn't.. ) is like the arrow on Streetview. So consciousness can direct it left right up down, a bit like a character in a video game. And then it can experience sensations via the body's receptors...ears eyes etc
Sorry this is just thought, not looking and not actual experience but occurred to "me" when walking tonight

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:01 am

Sorry for the late answer.
Some technical problems here.
Now going on looking...
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:17 am

Thank you for the answers Lynne.

There is no "body". Period!
This is messing with my head. If I had a psychiatric evaluation right now I think I'd be committed :)

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

IS a sensation a body
IS a thought a body
IS an image a body
Is a sound body
IS a smell a body
Is a taste i a body

?


So what is the actual experinence of "me" i" "self" ?

Logically if i/me/self does not exist it cannot experience anything. If i/me/self is a mental construct (which it must be if it doesnt exist) it is therefore just a thought. And thoughts cant have a real experience (although they might think they can).
There is no thought of "self" when there is no thought. Just actual experience. Then thought comes in and claims it as "i/me/self" but like the goldfish its a thought and not real. Therefore even when there is thought it is just actual experience.
Good looking here.
You see that this i - me - self is just a thought!

So can thoughts think?
Can thought be controlled ?
What is the difference of "i" thought then other thoughts?




sending much love.
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:25 am

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:58 pm

Hi ...no problem at all and thank you for your replies...
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

IS a sensation a body
IS a thought a body
IS an image a body
Is a sound body
IS a smell a body
Is a taste i a body

?
Sensing, thinking, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting are all verbs = experiencing. The actual experience of the body is that which it experiences - whatever it touches, sees, hears, smells, tastes?

A sensation, thought, image, sound, smell and taste are nouns - labels given to individual experiences? None of these are a body. But combined they can "describe" or "evoke" a body or anything. If its a thought its not real. But if it can be seen, touched, heard etc is it not real?
So can thoughts think?
The content of a thought is not real. So thoughts cannot think.
Can thought be controlled ?
Good question. I did think that I had some control of thoughts - e.g. stopping a thought in mid flow, or changing a negative thought with a positive thought. Thoughts can be programmed e.g. watching TV which may bias thought but won't control it
What is the difference of "i" thought then other thoughts?
"I" suppose the I thought is what isolates us from the rest of the world, believing we are separate. The "i" thought claims ownership, takes things personally, thinks it's in control. Wants to keep things to itself rather than share. It has an image of itself to uphold and protect. It's a distorted view. The "I" thought is the story creator.

Other thoughts ...are just thoughts. It's raining. That's pretty. That hurts.

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:38 pm

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.
I suppose we could be looking at a photo of an apple or seeing an apple in a dream. But when we smell it and touch it and cut it in two and taste it, we know for sure it's a real apple as opposed to a thought of an apple (like the goldfish)
What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.
What do the content of thoughts describe?
They provide detail, often minute detail, in the way a writer would when creating a character or describing a place. They provide flavour and often drama to what is perhaps a bit ordinary.

I'm struggling with the idea that thoughts are actual experience but thoughts ABOUT something are just more thought. So the thought "it's cold" is direct experience but "it's colder than it was yesterday" isn't? If not could you please give me an example?
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Back to the goldfish example - a thought of a goldfish can never be a real goldfish. This assumes a "real" goldfish can be found in actual experience. If "apple" can't be found in direct experience, nothing can be found in direct experience, except the experiencing itself.

Which is great in theory but...reminds me of a story Jeff Foster told, where his brother asked him to give him a hand with the washing up. To which Jeff replied "there is no washing up, its an illusion". BUT in the real/dream world whatever the correct label is, the washing up was still there needing to be done!

So can "apple" be found in actual experience - no because it's a noun, and actual experience is verb driven, e.g. seeing, touching. But - the apple exists, the dirty dishes exist - because it rots if it's not thrown away, or it stacks up if it's not washed...?! So - can things exist OUTSIDE of actual experience? Or is actual experience all there is?

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:12 pm

Hey Lynne..

Because of an urgent situation i need to stop guiding for a time period.

But one of my dear talented guide friend "Paula" will be taking you over after this...

All ok..All is well.. I will be following from time to time but i wont be having so much time for guiding for a while...

It was pleasure to work until now.

Paula is an amazing guide and remember that guide and guided is the same.
Trust the process keep it simple, realization is here and now..

;Sending you much love...

See you..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby adilerten » Sat Sep 28, 2019 1:17 pm

She will be starting over on Tuesday with you..

Sending much love..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:10 pm

Hi Adil

Thank you so much for your time, wishing you well with whatever it is you need to sort and sending you love.

I know I will be in good hands.

Thank you again

Lynne

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BeHereNow
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby BeHereNow » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:25 pm

Hi Lynne,

My name is Paula and I am looking forward to continuing your Looking process!

I have reviewed where you are at until now and you have done some wonderful Looking.
the apple exists, the dirty dishes exist - because it rots if it's not thrown away, or it stacks up if it's not washed...?! So - can things exist OUTSIDE of actual experience? Or is actual experience all there is?
In this scenario, you have confused looking and thinking. You could not in actual experience find the apple, but in thinking about it, you don't think it's possible for it not to exist. This is all thinking. We will be looking at thought more directly later in the process, so you can just label this a "thought" for now.

Just a reminder about Looking, which is all we are doing in this process:

LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...
so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –

It is like "looking" for your keys in your pocket..You touch and you feel with your hands to see if they are there or not.

You looked for an apple and did not find one, so that is the end of the process. The more you Look, the more you will see that yes activity still happens, i.e. washing the dishes happens, but the thinking about it is an additional layer. Again, we will look at this more deeply in a little while. For now let's continue to deepen Looking.

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine form, size, weight, temperature, keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.
Open your eyes; is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?


Here is another exercise:

Close your eyes and imagine you are in the kitchen. Just visualize and look around, notice where things are put. Notice the space, the feel of it.
This is an image, it can trigger feelings and contractions - expansions, thought stories and feelings attached to them.

Open eyes and see how an image can be created and explored in the mind.

Go to the kitchen and look at the same things that you saw in the image, how does imagining and experiencing the same things differ? Is the image of the kitchen and experience of the kitchen the same?


Let me know how these go!

Warm wishes,
Paula

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Lindylou
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Re: Looking for some help please

Postby Lindylou » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:27 pm

Hi Paula

Thank you so much for offering to guide me.

Still slightly stuck on the Apple thing...so it's in my pocket (really not imagined) and I touch it , feel it, take it out of my pocket and see it (all direct experience not thought) - why have I not found the Apple? Like looking and finding keys in your pocket.

On to the exercises...
Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine form, size, weight, temperature, keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.
Open your eyes; is there a spoon here, in real life?
No (of course not)!
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
I opened my eyes and saw there was no spoon (thought had already entered to say it wasn't real and it wouldn't be there)
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?
It never existed, it was just a thought.
Close your eyes and imagine you are in the kitchen. Just visualize and look around, notice where things are put. Notice the space, the feel of it.
This is an image, it can trigger feelings and contractions - expansions, thought stories and feelings attached to them.

Open eyes and see how an image can be created and explored in the mind.

Go to the kitchen and look at the same things that you saw in the image, how does imagining and experiencing the same things differ? Is the image of the kitchen and experience of the kitchen the same?
Yes I saw how the image was really strong in the mind.
When I went to the kitchen the "real" experience was much more in depth, i realised my imagination had been selective in what it chose to remember and what it left out. The image was guesswork and approximation (thoughts arising from store of memories) and felt dream like in its lack of accuracy. The experience felt "real" and accurate, could be verified by touch, sight etc


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