Ready to talk

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Damon Kamda
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Re: Ready to talk

Postby Damon Kamda » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:18 pm

no-one i guess, no one i can find. nothing in my experience right now tells me there is anyone there
Please- no guessing... ;-) Stick to what is seen to be the case, ok?
Everything that is in my awareness
Is there such a thing as awareness in which things appear?
Where is the division between awareness and appearance exactly?
when i am not under whatever I-illusions i might be having.
What does it mean to say that "I am under an illusion"? How exactly does this function?

Have to log off for the night now, but will be back tomorrow.

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby woooway » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:52 pm

Hi Damon. Ok no guessing i promise.

As for is there such a thing as awareness in which things appear? I don't know not a something that i can perceive. When awareness is experienced clearly it feels like its just an absence of thoughts/feelings, or that there are less objects in awareness, or less attachments to them. But i don't feel awareness is itself as a thing, it feels as though its before and through things.
I can't see a division between awareness and appearance either, all i can see is appearance.
What does it mean to say that "I am under an illusion"? How exactly does this function?
It doesn't make any sense to me looking at it, because it is circular, what i mean is when the object of my attention is in a thought, perhaps a thought that is more invested in or emotionally charged, at those times it is harder to see that the thoughts are just thoughts, and the I content or component of it and what is projected from there (the past/future the spirals and webs of stories and meanings) doesn't have any real ground or reality, that they are noother than its place as an object in awareness. Half of my waking time I am really aware that there is no I no sense of me doing anything, more often than not i watch twinges in my hands, watch myself rolling a cigarette, getting into the shower, and notice all the decisions being made without my conscious control. My problem i think, and this is coming from just a day here working with your questions and guidance is that in experience i don't feel like i have to do anything more to be what i am or discover what i am, other than continue be aware of the realisation that i can't do anything anyway! and even that is something i can't control the frequency or intensity of. I just have to completely surrender to it.

After our exchanges I can already feel my mind (i am using words like mind and i out of convention here) getting involved in distinctions and differences and sensing agaiin that there is some quest for which it must be mobilised : to find the right sense of experience or non-experience, the right realisation or to achievea certain expression of that experience and communicate it effectively to you. As i type this, my awareness lands on my hands and i watch them move while knowing that 'im' not in control of anything that im doing, that the sense of me, pasts and future are jjust appended onto everything. And thats why when you said its not necessarily about clarity or sensing the experience of being more clearly, i can't help but disagree a bit, because to me the further i am from the idea that i have any part to play in the goings on of my consciousness, the more clarity i do feel and the more my attention rests in silence. Do i need to do anymore? when i feel i don't even exist in the sense that i could do something even if i tried?

Will i just know when that sense of identity has fully gone?

Can you help me make sense of this? Sorry if i have digressed somewhat and gone astray from the observation focus, but i couldn't help but share these aspects of where i am with you. I think they matter.

Sleep well and thankyou for today!
Richard

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby Damon Kamda » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:23 am

Hi Damon. Ok no guessing i promise.
Good, good, Richard.

I'll start by adressing the final portion of your post first, allright?
Can you help me make sense of this?
Yes. It's a good idea to get a grip on what it is exactly that we're doing here.
And thats why when you said its not necessarily about clarity or sensing the experience of being more clearly, i can't help but disagree a bit, because to me the further i am from the idea that i have any part to play in the goings on of my consciousness, the more clarity i do feel and the more my attention rests in silence. Do i need to do anymore? when i feel i don't even exist in the sense that i could do something even if i tried?
Clarity or an increased "sense of being" are specific states of consciousness, which may or may not be effects of the clear and direct seeing of the actual absence of self. The purpose of this conversation is to lead you to this clear and direct seeing, not to those states of consciousness. Do you see the difference? The reason I mention this, is because if you are specifically looking for these states, you may miss the point entirely, as it's so subtle and simple... ;-)
Will i just know when that sense of identity has fully gone?
We're also not trying to get rid of this sense of identity. Not at all. What we're looking for is the deep, visceral, irreversible insight into the nature of identity, all identity.
As for is there such a thing as awareness in which things appear? I don't know not a something that i can perceive. When awareness is experienced clearly it feels like its just an absence of thoughts/feelings, or that there are less objects in awareness, or less attachments to them. But i don't feel awareness is itself as a thing, it feels as though its before and through things.
I can't see a division between awareness and appearance either, all i can see is appearance.
Is awareness ever actually experienced, or is it just an idea, an abstraction?
Does it actually exist?

What is experience? How many levels are there to experience?
My problem i think, and this is coming from just a day here working with your questions and guidance is that in experience i don't feel like i have to do anything more to be what i am or discover what i am, other than continue be aware of the realisation that i can't do anything anyway! and even that is something i can't control the frequency or intensity of. I just have to completely surrender to it.
Why can't you do anything anyway? Is that true?
If that is seen to be so, then how can you say you "just have to completely surrender to it"? What does that mean, how is that possible?
After our exchanges I can already feel my mind (i am using words like mind and i out of convention here) getting involved in distinctions and differences and sensing agaiin that there is some quest for which it must be mobilised : to find the right sense of experience or non-experience, the right realisation or to achievea certain expression of that experience and communicate it effectively to you.
Yes, of course there is. The mind (conventionally speaking indeed) responds to questions, and directive language.
Where exactly is the *problem* here?

Quite a few questions there for you. Good luck with them.

Take care,
Damon

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby woooway » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:23 am

Clarity or an increased "sense of being" are specific states of consciousness, which may or may not be effects of the clear and direct seeing of the actual absence of self. The purpose of this conversation is to lead you to this clear and direct seeing, not to those states of consciousness. Do you see the difference? The reason I mention this, is because if you are specifically looking for these states, you may miss the point entirely, as it's so subtle and simple... ;-)
Hi Damon, ok. i understand what you are saying. I am going to trust in this and keep the focus that you're asking for. To explain firstly what presents itself as difficulty is that I feel i have come to a place (excuse the i's etc) where in seeing thoughts for what they really are, and in being less attached to them i seem to fall back into a state of consciousness, naturally, which is free from the gripping and tightness which is what used to characterise my waking experience. and this feels right..the more time spent in what feels unchanging and quiet seems itself to further loosen notions of the self which are not real or which are more dreamlike. it seems it has its own inertia and alot of things are falling away by themselves. in looking as you're asking there feels like there is resistance to something that on some deep intuitive level is taking care of itself and doesn't need activity. However I am very grateful to be having this conversation with you, very grateful indeed and will trust in this. :-)
Will i just know when that sense of identity has fully gone?
We're also not trying to get rid of this sense of identity. Not at all. What we're looking for is the deep, visceral, irreversible insight into the nature of identity, all identity.
Ok that sounds good, very good.
Is awareness ever actually experienced, or is it just an idea, an abstraction?
Does it actually exist?

No is the answer. If i look right now at what i am experience i don't seem to be able to experience anything other than whats in front of me, whether it is thoughts, objects that seem to be in the external world, and even subtle shades of feeling which appear to be located in some sense of space in or behind the body. It is but one continual stream of different perceptions. Awareness is just a concept i am using to point to a knowingness of something greater than what i have traditionally taken as myself, but on account of that, it passes too and i am back to, in this case typing only. It feels there is nothing more than that. up till now cultivating this has lead me to greater sense of peace than any of the other ideas i have invested in. I have hoped also that this idea too will be taken care of and fall away of itself.
What is experience? How many levels are there to experience?
Expereince is what is happening right now in this moment; seeing my hands and movement, hearing birds and a hum outside my window, seeing the different shades and forms on my computer screen, and it always seems to be something taking place in contrast to a background of some kind; noise against no noise, colour appearing against absence of colour. that in order for the appearance and experience of these things i have to be aware that there is a backdrop of nothingness in which these things occur. when i look like this, i notice this as a pause or a stopping which for a split second a fraction of time nothing is being experienced. or at least experience of what that is feels very intense and unclouded almost outside of time. Its this feeling, almost catching *myself* out where i feel there is room to "not experience" and what i have been feeling a inclination to explore.
Why can't you do anything anyway? Is that true?
If that is seen to be so, then how can you say you "just have to completely surrender to it"? What does that mean, how is that possible?

Because I feel i am just reacting to things as they come and present themselves, i don't feel really in control of my experience in the sense of being an author, or choosing, i deinitely feel that sense of doing is there but its not attached to the notion of I or collection of thoughts and ideas i use to tell my story. Even when i talk to people and ultimately use words and ideas they take charge of themselves and when they have stopped they stop. i don't feel like an agent, but more just an experience of them happening. This is something that only changed over the last few months. I read maharshi's be as you are and *decided* to surrender and see what happens, and almost instantly a sense of things taking their own shape took hold.
When i get a sense that i am owning things i see it almost before its passed out of my consciousness and see it for what it is and let it go. It means moving from a place of surrender than from a place of action, even if it is but an idea, in the trust that over time the notion that you could act anyway is seen as something that was erroneous all along and just in the way.... is this not a way to change false belief through the effect it has on my cognition and experience?
After our exchanges I can already feel my mind (i am using words like mind and i out of convention here) getting involved in distinctions and differences and sensing agaiin that there is some quest for which it must be mobilised : to find the right sense of experience or non-experience, the right realisation or to achievea certain expression of that experience and communicate it effectively to you.
Yes, of course there is. The mind (conventionally speaking indeed) responds to questions, and directive language.
Where exactly is the *problem* here?
There is no real problem now, lol. Not today right here. I felt resistance to it yesterday because i felt like i was engaging in a strategy again, when i know there is no strategy to be had, and i didn't want to give any more fuel to the idea that there could be another mind-generated way to get at the truth. I tried everything up to this point and realised that trying gets in the way of seeing. Maybe again i am confusing the state/insight thing you mentioned and i just have to trust.
+I do have the feeling that as soon as i explain myself, i may as well have not written anything because its already in the past and inaccurate...i feel trapped by how i've characterised things, that as soon as the words are written, they get in the way again. :-O

Richard :-)

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby Damon Kamda » Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:20 pm

Hi Richard,
i seem to fall back into a state of consciousness, naturally, which is free from the gripping and tightness which is what used to characterise my waking experience. and this feels right..the more time spent in what feels unchanging and quiet seems itself to further loosen notions of the self which are not real or which are more dreamlike
Yes, beautiful. Just don’t try to hold on to that state. It comes and goes (as you’ve probably noticed already).
in looking as you're asking there feels like there is resistance to something that on some deep intuitive level is taking care of itself and doesn't need activity
It does happen by itself. I’m just inserting suggestions to speed it up a little…
up till now cultivating this has lead me to greater sense of peace than any of the other ideas i have invested in. I have hoped also that this idea too will be taken care of and fall away of itself.
You mean the notion of awareness as the space in which everything occurs?
Yes, that is a monumental step in the awakening process for sure. Yet, as you indicate, there is further to go. It seems as if you’re already past that now, am I right in saying that?
Because I feel i am just reacting to things as they come and present themselves, i don't feel really in control of my experience in the sense of being an author, or choosing, i deinitely feel that sense of doing is there but its not attached to the notion of I or collection of thoughts and ideas i use to tell my story. Even when i talk to people and ultimately use words and ideas they take charge of themselves and when they have stopped they stop. i don't feel like an agent, but more just an experience of them happening. This is something that only changed over the last few months. I read maharshi's be as you are and *decided* to surrender and see what happens, and almost instantly a sense of things taking their own shape took hold.
That’s a very clear description. Wonderful.
When i get a sense that i am owning things i see it almost before its passed out of my consciousness and see it for what it is and let it go. It means moving from a place of surrender than from a place of action, even if it is but an idea, in the trust that over time the notion that you could act anyway is seen as something that was erroneous all along and just in the way.... is this not a way to change false belief through the effect it has on my cognition and experience?
Yes, that is the way to drop false beliefs.
There is no real problem now, lol. Not today right here. I felt resistance to it yesterday because i felt like i was engaging in a strategy again, when i know there is no strategy to be had, and i didn't want to give any more fuel to the idea that there could be another mind-generated way to get at the truth. I tried everything up to this point and realised that trying gets in the way of seeing. Maybe again i am confusing the state/insight thing you mentioned and i just have to trust.
+I do have the feeling that as soon as i explain myself, i may as well have not written anything because its already in the past and inaccurate...i feel trapped by how i've characterised things, that as soon as the words are written, they get in the way again. :-O
It seems you’ve come a long way already.
So that begs the question: what is missing?
What’s being looked for still?
Can you put that into words?

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby woooway » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:18 pm

Hi Damon, thanks for your reply. It definitely sparked something.
I think on some level i needed some approval from you that the kinds of feelings i have been feeling, while maybe not an end point, if that exists, have a vector thats gradually pointing to the right spot, or at least the weak spots/blocks. What you said about a visceral unshakeable insight has stuck with me. And i think this is exactly what i want. Clarity not necessarily a pleasurable experience or a refuge from other *normal* experience. That normal experience isn't too bad now, in fact i don't really have much to complain about about how i feel on a daily basis. I dont have ideas about enlightenment or awakening as being a way-out of anything. I feel it is more about a way into reality, more and more so. and i hope that only gets deeper, because i want to see the truth and live it!!!if i can!

Something you said prompted me to realise something today. At the bus stop of course. You said maybe i was confusing a state or experience with an insight, something along those lines. And something seemed to clear up.although time has passed since and i should have written down what came to mind then. Maybe before i was viewing the ever-growing gaps in between thoughts/feelings etc in opposition to content of experience, and now i see that the content and the gaps are not different. Simply the content in the gaps is less clouded by the delusions that mediate between consciousness and whatever it perceives?? Its a collapsing into something, not a moving away from or sidestepping. And now i remember when I had this peak experience, i wasn't looking for it all it just felt like everything caved in.
So i can only start from this moment and see where it goes. Even the bus stop realisation must come and pass..right?

I don't know, i think that might have been a block. I suppose with a special experience, it leaves a trace in the mind and you forget that it was never you who achieved it anyway!
You mean the notion of awareness as the space in which everything occurs?
Yes, that is a monumental step in the awakening process for sure. Yet, as you indicate, there is further to go. It seems as if you’re already past that now, am I right in saying that?
[/quote] YEs i think so. It was nice to hear that from you. Helped. I think further to go just means i don't as yet feel that visceral, total sense of clarity that i know is there, inside. always really just hiding a bit. I kind of know i'm not here really which is a weird thing to write but i know that before and after, each paradigm is on opposite ends of the see-saw and its kind of oscillating. I feel it enough to always bring it to mind, but not enough to always live it or for it to live through me. I know intellectually it is,even in delusion and suffering, but thats not enough for me. I do want that clarity because it feels like its only garbage thats got in the way and ive spent so long fumbling and struggling clearing it away piece by piece before really knowing what it was that was happening, that now nothing else matters much. :-S

[
quote]So that begs the question: what is missing?
What’s being looked for still?
Can you put that into words?
[/quote][/quote]

But its clear to me now that i'm not looking for an experience. That changed in the last 24 hours i think! Just a truthful living. Its something spontaneous and free and something thats behind everything thats been added to it.

I had some questions to ask you, but have forgotten most of them. One was it would be helpful to me if you could describe what happened for you, even just an aspect of the process as it was for you. That would great for me. If its beyond the bounds of this I totally get it though. :-)

Richard

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby Damon Kamda » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:13 pm

Hi Richard,
Maybe before i was viewing the ever-growing gaps in between thoughts/feelings etc in opposition to content of experience, and now i see that the content and the gaps are not different. Simply the content in the gaps is less clouded by the delusions that mediate between consciousness and whatever it perceives?? Its a collapsing into something, not a moving away from or sidestepping. And now i remember when I had this peak experience, i wasn't looking for it all it just felt like everything caved in.
The content and the gaps are not different! Nicely put. That's a huge step.

Now what about "consciousness and whatever it perceives"?

The way you describe it makes it seems as if there's consciousness here and things being perceived out there. Two sides, two poles to experience. Is that actually the case?
I had some questions to ask you, but have forgotten most of them. One was it would be helpful to me if you could describe what happened for you, even just an aspect of the process as it was for you. That would great for me. If its beyond the bounds of this I totally get it though. :-)
I'm not sure if that's going to be helpful at this point. This is different for everyone and making comparisons may be counterproductive. Do you have a specific question you'd like to ask?

For now, let's focus on the question above, ok?

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby woooway » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:36 pm

Ok sure. I get it.
Now what about "consciousness and whatever it perceives"?
The way you describe it makes it seems as if there's consciousness here and things being perceived out there. Two sides, two poles to experience. Is that actually the case?


No. Thats kind of what i meant before when i said that in viewing things from the separateness of I, everything seems more dual or opposed than it actually is in experience. And the same with what is being perceived and consciousness, its just all the same really, just that in looking for an experience as synonymous with awakening, the totality of consciouness is broke up, and one part is trying to fight itself to get hold of the other part which it sees as different. but if its about seeing the experience without the dirty glasses on then the content of experience is always expressed in consciousness, just you aren;t used to seeing it??

The more i am looking the more i see less between or less difference between *me* and everything outside. things feel less obstructed somehow.

The question can wait.I had specific ones earlier but forgot them. I'm just interested in the way beliefs change i guess and how they become lived and wondered how you would describe that process in your story. Wasn't looking for details as such. But it can wait. You are right. ;-)

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby Damon Kamda » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:49 pm

The more i am looking the more i see less between or less difference between *me* and everything outside. things feel less obstructed somehow.
Is there an inside and outside at all?

Is there a self at all?

What is the self?

Checking out again, will be back tomorrow.

All the best,
Damon

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby woooway » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:45 pm

Hi Damon :)

Time passed today before i wanted to write. Fortunately this week is holiday in Spain, and the school where i work is shut so lots of time to just explore everything, and many things have happened today. There was a real intensity in my experience, it has all felt quite connected. A little realisation, this time while looking out of the window at the sky and birds and stuff. there was the thought that the I seems to get overlayed once the focus comes out of experience and drops back into some middle ground somewhere. But i have been continuing to look and reengage with whats around me more and the thought, albeit a thought that asks whether i exist at all seems to push me back into looking quite automatically. Anyway to answer your questions :-)
Is there an inside and outside at all?
Not really it feels like those distinctions, that one in particular is just a lens. I do have a doubt though that an awakening might just be another lens to look through no more valid than all the others. CBT changes lenses and results in a different way of seeing. What is there to say that this new or revealed way of seeing is more truthful... But anyway i'm digressing. inside/outside seems to be falling away somewhat in favour of immediate kind of perception.
Is there a self at all?
Hmmm. If im totally honest i don't think/feel like there is. But i am determined to approach this like an explorer ! leaving no stone untouched and looking in everything on the assumption it must be there somewhere. I don't want a half-washed new belief but a clear knowing of it.
What is the self?
Again, all i can see tells me what is going on is automatic and belies the notion of a self. Its not anywhere in my experience, apart from sometimes in a cloudy miragy kind of processing space after perception where things seemed to be gathered and filed. which feels deeply subconscious but is coming more to the surface the more i look. Sorry for these psycho-descriptions. i am realising alot of the mental filtering processes that i have acquired seem to be telling me quite alot about whats standing in the way of immediate clear experience. If its not useful please just shout at me ;-)

I hope you are well
Richard

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby woooway » Thu Apr 05, 2012 5:38 pm

Hi Damon,

Just wanted to add something i just thought about regarding the nature of the i. Is it just that the i is an umbrella or coagulator of all the separate part of experience we can locate in ourselves, both inside and outside, and that it has been slowly inculcated in us to group or categorise the experiences of these separate phenomena as unified, this unification leads to a separation with what's not ours i.e. external world and all the fighting and fear that comes from that tension which is manifest as a distortion in the perception of all things. Because if what we actually are is consciousness itself then we are not our bodies either, but we think we can marshal them when all we are doing is glueing together ,in post-perception somewhere,what we already have already mistakenly perceived to be separate things (on account of a previous working assumption of I) Its like a mistake that perpetuates itself in all we do, because it has become so ingrained in everything, we live steeped in it. And that division between us and the external world comes about side-by-side, for the i has to have the not I, other people and the I's actual environment. The fear that drives us to control and dominate everything because of our separateness. But the fear is felt through the instability of the I that comes because on some deep level the organism knows it isn't separate at all. Because surely it can't on a precognitive level know itself less than the illusion which gerrymanders everything - its intelligence manifest already!

Earlier on i started asking myself ~~(it seems so ridiculous to write I, but the passive tense is so cumbersome!!!!) questions with everything that was happening. "Who's walking up the stairs?" "Who's washing the bowl" etc and the I just doesn't refer to anything. It definitely doesn't refer to the body, we see it as something more than that which includes the body when we want it to. But there again there seems another problem with I. Its not even a stable concept! because it modifies itself and its members on account of satisfying pleasure and pain. Does that very need for pleasure and avoidance of pain come from its own creation aswell???!!! Fuck. Its like one big nasty mess. Its shocking.

I think that enough for now!sorry for the rant :-S Going to keep looking for it till its visceral.

Richard

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby Damon Kamda » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:01 pm

I hope you are well
Yes, mate, thanks. A bit busy, so I might be a bit slower in replying...

You're so incredibly close- it oozes from your writing. Really nice to read this. You seem perfectly able to ask exactly the right questions, which is wonderful because you get to be your own guide and I get to watch it unfold, with a drink and a bag of popcorn, which is awesome.
I do have a doubt though that an awakening might just be another lens to look through no more valid than all the others.
Forget about awakening for a moment. It means nothing.
Who would do the awakening, who would wake up?

Look at that for a moment.

I'm not interested in handing you a new lens to look through, new ideas, theories, frameworks. None of that matters in the slightest.

We're looking at the mechanism of perception, of experience.

Is someone looking through any lenses- or is that just an image?

Is there a self at all?
Hmmm. If im totally honest i don't think/feel like there is. But i am determined to approach this like an explorer ! leaving no stone untouched and looking in everything on the assumption it must be there somewhere. I don't want a half-washed new belief but a clear knowing of it.
Then look!
Think obvious, simple, in your face.
Not complex, not hidden, not mysterious.

Has there ever been a you????
Is it possible for there to be an actual you at all?
Just wanted to add something i just thought about regarding the nature of the i. Is it just that the i is an umbrella or coagulator of all the separate part of experience we can locate in ourselves, both inside and outside, and that it has been slowly inculcated in us to group or categorise the experiences of these separate phenomena as unified, this unification leads to a separation with what's not ours i.e. external world and all the fighting and fear that comes from that tension which is manifest as a distortion in the perception of all things. Because if what we actually are is consciousness itself then we are not our bodies either, but we think we can marshal them when all we are doing is glueing together ,in post-perception somewhere,what we already have already mistakenly perceived to be separate things (on account of a previous working assumption of I) Its like a mistake that perpetuates itself in all we do, because it has become so ingrained in everything, we live steeped in it. And that division between us and the external world comes about side-by-side, for the i has to have the not I, other people and the I's actual environment. The fear that drives us to control and dominate everything because of our separateness. But the fear is felt through the instability of the I that comes because on some deep level the organism knows it isn't separate at all. Because surely it can't on a precognitive level know itself less than the illusion which gerrymanders everything - its intelligence manifest already!

Earlier on i started asking myself ~~(it seems so ridiculous to write I, but the passive tense is so cumbersome!!!!) questions with everything that was happening. "Who's walking up the stairs?" "Who's washing the bowl" etc and the I just doesn't refer to anything. It definitely doesn't refer to the body, we see it as something more than that which includes the body when we want it to. But there again there seems another problem with I. Its not even a stable concept! because it modifies itself and its members on account of satisfying pleasure and pain. Does that very need for pleasure and avoidance of pain come from its own creation aswell???!!! Fuck. Its like one big nasty mess. Its shocking.
This is really good stuff.
Now let the seeing deepen.
Can you the depth of the illusion- just how deep it runs- how it colours everything?

This has always already been known, felt and seen. Deep inside. Could it actually be true?

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Re: Ready to talk

Postby woooway » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:57 pm

Forget about awakening for a moment. It means nothing.
Who would do the awakening, who would wake up? This made me laugh out loud when I first read it this afternoon. Properly. Makes total sense. N-one.

Is there a self at all?
I decided to really get with the program with this. And its not been easy I am looking at every available opportunity sieving through the content of my experience (there we go, my experience) to see when and where any hint of self comes up and where and what its attached to and, a lot of it seems to be background fuzz, thoughts that kind of hover around or slip in between other clearer thoughts. But I’m still having those thoughts and just move on from them to look again. I feel a little bit helpless here and maybe that’s ok – wow that was actually thought and written down before it was realized for what it was. It is much clearer with respect to the body.
Who the fuck is i? It keeps popping up. And when writing I keep chugging out I’s all over the place. It’s just become so easy to reel off stories, its now becoming annoying that they seem to just start by themselves. Lots of images of older ‘me’s from different points in life coming up often much younger 12/13 maybe even younger.
Every time an ‘I’ is about to be written i am stopping and asking myself what it is or what it refers to.
The ‘I’ definitely seems to be a constellation and it definitely, although it floats it seems to have more than one face. And kind of appears as a cloud over something, and its not easy to spot this its so insidious sometimes. Feel like I’m in my own video game suddenly and I’m determined to get this *thing* on the operating table.

Is someone looking through any lenses- or is that just an image?
It feels that way. It feels annoying that when things relax the lenses seem to come off and experience is much more direct. When *looking* I have to keep reminding myself that I am not doing anything. And when I start to look intensely things feel clouded or strained. There’s definitely confusion here which I could do with your take on? Is that a natural part of this, or am I pushing to hard and should revert to just relaxing and surrendering. They feel like very different processes.

Then look!
Think obvious, simple, in your face.
Not complex, not hidden, not mysterious.

Yes- when I am looking, sensing, perceiving I can’t find the self in any of the contents, save for a lingering that know the content is a bit smeary.

Feel frustrated this eve and a bit conflicted about this looking. I feel like there’s a conflict between looking and relaxing into seeing, and maybe as soon as I task something up I make it into an effort. Like – find the self in your experience – ok suddenly I’m firefighting all sorts of vague and funny morphs in my mind and it all seems out of control a bit.

I will leave your other questions for another time. But could do with your help a bit.
For me it seems like I KNOW there’s no me doing anything when I look, but as soon as I start really looking intensely, I feel like I’m in a conflict with myself. Like the ego takes interest in the prospect of a challenge and puffs its chest out in search of itself. GRRRRRRRR makes me doubt myself in relation to this method.:-S

Anyway good night
Richard

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Damon Kamda
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Re: Ready to talk

Postby Damon Kamda » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:54 pm

Hi Richard,

How's it going?
This made me laugh out loud when I first read it this afternoon. Properly. Makes total sense. N-one.
;-) Isn't this the funniest thing ever?
The ‘I’ definitely seems to be a constellation and it definitely, although it floats it seems to have more than one face. And kind of appears as a cloud over something, and its not easy to spot this its so insidious sometimes. Feel like I’m in my own video game suddenly and I’m determined to get this *thing* on the operating table.
Yes! Dissect it, take it apart, deconstruct it completely. What is the I made of? What keeps it together and operational?
There’s definitely confusion here which I could do with your take on? Is that a natural part of this, or am I pushing to hard and should revert to just relaxing and surrendering. They feel like very different processes.
Yes, that is part of this. Keep going.
For me it seems like I KNOW there’s no me doing anything when I look, but as soon as I start really looking intensely, I feel like I’m in a conflict with myself. Like the ego takes interest in the prospect of a challenge and puffs its chest out in search of itself. GRRRRRRRR makes me doubt myself in relation to this method.:-S
Lol.

Is there an ego that is able to do anything?
Even thought effort and conflict appear- is there ever anyone actually making the effort and having the conflict?

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woooway
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Re: Ready to talk

Postby woooway » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:25 pm

Hi Damon. Rapid fire response here.
How's it going?
Total honesty, i'm not at all sure. I feel more confused and angry than i have done in a LONG time. I need to story waffle a bit, to soundboard. I gave up meditation because after having explored it i knew deep down it wasn't going to provide any more benefit for me. It seemed to erect walls not help them fall apart. Maybe chasing a state or just the fact that it presupposed some kind of I doing it. In the last few months in total acceptance of what is and a gradual but emerging sense of what is not, everything just started gravitating of its own accord to what i then thought was a 'place' inside myself which was unchanging, impeturbable even. With your help i have realised that it wasn't a place, it was a kind of direct seeing, in which the murkiness of perception was being cleared and some apperception was taking its place. A real trust developed and a living breathing feeling that everything was doing itself. Now, I feel alot of emotions which i know deeply are taking me away from that way of being which felt so right. And i feel like i felt with meditation. I think the active process of looking turns me back into a chaser an achiever all the tendencies i experienced as a kid which ultimately brought me to a nervous breakdown at 27 and detsroyed everything. Which was necessary!!! :-) My life was one big panic attack lol and i left everything of my old life behind and slowly piece together a form of living again. What i'm trying to say is...maybe the *path* of surrender works for me because if given something to do - i.e. look for the self - i become a bit of a maniac. :-) an end point is formulated and a striving just happens which ties me in knots. SO i am unsure where i stand + i know that i don't really stand anywhere either.
Yes! Dissect it, take it apart, deconstruct it completely. What is the I made of? What keeps it together and operational?
I can see the I is just a thought, that it doesn't do anything, that it comes and goes and isn't commensurate with experience or its own referencing - at all. That there's no freedom in it, that it gets in the way of seeing and living.
Is there an ego that is able to do anything?
Even thought effort and conflict appear- is there ever anyone actually making the effort and having the conflict?
[/quote] No i know there isn't but i don't feel it as i feel i should.

Sorry for the doubting, i can't help it. PS> When i was experiencing panic back in the day, I would have intense derealisation experiences which felt TOTALLY empty of content. Thats the very thing that triggered everything and scared the shit out of me. In hindsight, i feel that might be the very experience i need to confirm to meet that the seeking has fallen away as have the blinkers.

Sorry, i know you're not a counsellor :-S but if i'm here im going to be totally frank about it all. I feel at odds right now.

Hope you are well!!
;-) Richard


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