Please guide me

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:39 pm

Before we go to exercises about thought stories let's see what is direct experience

Here in liberation unleashed we will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...

so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –
It is the raw experience of direct experiences colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. not the content of thought.

The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

Clear ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:56 pm

Image

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying,
"I'm looking at an apple." What is known for sure?
Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known color labelled ‘apple’ is known sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:26 pm

So if i say please see, touch, smell, hear, or taste this "self", can you experience this self ?
or it can only be thought ?

I try, but there is nothing except inner voice, and feeling of location - which really proves nothing.

Before we go to exercises about thought stories let's see what is direct experience

Here in liberation unleashed we will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...

so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –
It is the raw experience of direct experiences colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. not the content of thought.

The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

Clear ?

Understood, thank you


Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
However, is an apple actually known?

"Apple" is a label, a concept. I can see the color of the apple, its shape, hear inner voice, saying "apple", feel the position of the apple in space. "This apple" is a label, pointing to a chunk of reality, and smell, taste, tactile feeling of this chunk. But the word "reality" is also a label! What does this word really mean? Does this all mean that this apple doesn't exist? I'm starting to doubt that it exists, because I can only feel the sensations, and think thoughts about it.



Oh my god. As I was writing this, and thinking about the apple, I switched to thinking about the self, and suddenly it dawned on me - I have NEVER experienced myself! There was not a single moment when I could see myself! And there was a long-lasting sensation of peace and bliss (it is still there!). And a lot of laughter :D "It was all a fiction, a game!" And, oh, the connection to reality and the present moment is so strong...

I have to take a walk and let this sink in. Thank you SO MUCH, Adil!

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:36 pm

So if i say please see, touch, smell, hear, or taste this "self", can you experience this self ?
or it can only be thought ?



I try, but there is nothing except inner voice, and feeling of location - which really proves nothing.


Before we go to exercises about thought stories let's see what is direct experience

Here in liberation unleashed we will be using term "looking" and direct/actual experience often!
LOOKING is not done by thinking. It is plain looking.

The term ‘actual experience or direct experience is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...

so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now –
It is the raw experience of direct experiences colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. not the content of thought.

The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

Clear ?

Understood, thank you


Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
However, is an apple actually known?


"Apple" is a label, a concept. I can see the color of the apple, its shape, hear inner voice, saying "apple", feel the position of the apple in space. "This apple" is a label, pointing to a chunk of reality, and smell, taste, tactile feeling of this chunk. But the word "reality" is also a label! What does this word really mean? Does this all mean that this apple doesn't exist? I'm starting to doubt that it exists, because I can only feel the sensations, and think thoughts about it.
Wonderful looking!
Yes. apple is a label. :) And no it does not exist and yes word reality is just a label.
What is known is label, color, sensation+smell+taste+sound that thought suggests is an apple!

Oh my god. As I was writing this, and thinking about the apple, I switched to thinking about the self, and suddenly it dawned on me - I have NEVER experienced myself! There was not a single moment when I could see myself! And there was a long-lasting sensation of peace and bliss (it is still there!). And a lot of laughter :D "It was all a fiction, a game!" And, oh, the connection to reality and the present moment is so strong...

I have to take a walk and let this sink in. Thank you SO MUCH, Adil!
Yes there is no actual experience of a self. it is just a passing thought.
I am so happy to see that a shift of perceivement took place.
It is funny right :) IT is so simple and they call it cosmic joke.

Enlightenment is nothing more than seeing that self is an illusion. No angels, no magic wand erasing troubles, no people around you seeing a halo around your head and respecting you and all that :)
It is so simple. When you really look and see that you are not there, just life living of its own accord, you laugh.

So let it settle in and then look again and tell me when you are ready ?
Who is driving life? What’s really going on when you say “I”? Is there a center perceives ?
Or life simply unfolding ?

Sharing much love :)
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:31 am

Yes, it's really simple :D

Who is driving life? What’s really going on when you say “I”? Is there a center perceives ?
Or life simply unfolding ?

Nobody is driving life. There is indeed no manager, making actions and decisions. "I" is a concept, which is used to tell stories; thoughts also tell stories about "me". And there is no center that percieves, only perceptions. Life is indeed simply unfolding, with no controlling centers :)

Much love,
Vlad

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:44 am

Yes, it's really simple :D

Who is driving life? What’s really going on when you say “I”? Is there a center perceives ?
Or life simply unfolding ?

Nobody is driving life. There is indeed no manager, making actions and decisions. "I" is a concept, which is used to tell stories; thoughts also tell stories about "me". And there is no center that percieves, only perceptions. Life is indeed simply unfolding, with no controlling centers :)

Much love,
Vlad
Sure. Beautiful.
Thank you.
:)
How do you feel ?
Do you think you have seen that there is no self any form any shape ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:57 am

How do you feel ?

Well, I feel different. It's as though nothing has changed - there are still colors, thoughts, emotions and feelings, but my attitude towards them is different. I feel detachment from pleasure and pain, thinking: "This is fine". I'm starting to get that in reality, there is no "good" or "bad". Also, my meditation has gone a lot deeper.

I still get selfish thoughts and habits, but their power on me is starting to diminish. It feels like a start of a long process... :)

Do you think you have seen that there is no self any form any shape ?

Yes, I have seen that, definitely. And it was very powerful. Though, I still get doubtful thoughts sometimes, but when it happens I try to look - and then reconnect with the fact that there is nothing there :)

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:07 pm

How do you feel ?

Well, I feel different. It's as though nothing has changed - there are still colors, thoughts, emotions and feelings, but my attitude towards them is different. I feel detachment from pleasure and pain, thinking: "This is fine". I'm starting to get that in reality, there is no "good" or "bad". Also, my meditation has gone a lot deeper.

I still get selfish thoughts and habits, but their power on me is starting to diminish. It feels like a start of a long process... :)

Yes as you say nothing changes. It already is as it is. What drops is the belief that “I” is the orchestrator. And nothing drops it. It just falls away when the truth is seen.
In seeing there are the seen, the seer and the seeing—as one. There are no separate parts.
In hearing—the hearer, the heard and the hearing—as one. There are no separate parts.
In orchestration.
the "fog" might dissolve right away, but most of the time, not all of them
disappear in an instant. The difference, however, is that
with the understanding, for the first time you can deal with that
"dust" in an authentic way. As you continue, no much "noise" will bother any more.
Emotions and feelings pop out, then disappear, and then pop out ... thats it.
And yes it is not the end of anything, it is the beginning. But there is no long road to go. Drop any expectations.
It's a free fall now.
Do you think you have seen that there is no self any form any shape ?

Yes, I have seen that, definitely. And it was very powerful. Though, I still get doubtful thoughts sometimes, but when it happens I try to look - and then reconnect with the fact that there is nothing there :)
i also see that it is realized.
But let's look the idea of free will, body, and time to go deeper then i will give you the final questions ok ?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:12 pm

I see, thank you!

But let's look the idea of free will, body, and time to go deeper then i will give you the final questions ok ?

Yes, sure.

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 05, 2018 12:13 pm

First let's look to this idea of decision and control,
Can you please do this simple exercise and report what comes

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down. 2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:16 pm

There are only the thoughts about which hand to raise, an intention of raising a hand, and the event of its raising. Sometimes, there are no thoughts, or intention and the event are simultaneous.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?

There is nothing choosing, only the thoughts about it - of patterns of choosing. Either the thought of a pattern comes up, and the pattern is adhered to or broken, or it just happens automatically. When there are thoughts, which hand is chosen is dependend upon them, and when there aren't - it just happens.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No, there is no entity doing the choosing.

What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

There is no controller, it is just a process. In my direct experience, there is nothing making the hand move. There is intention of moving it, there is its movement, but nobody moving it.

How is the decision made?

A decision made implies that somebody is deciding. But there is nobody to decide!

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:10 pm

There are only the thoughts about which hand to raise, an intention of raising a hand, and the event of its raising. Sometimes, there are no thoughts, or intention and the event are simultaneous.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?

There is nothing choosing, only the thoughts about it - of patterns of choosing. Either the thought of a pattern comes up, and the pattern is adhered to or broken, or it just happens automatically. When there are thoughts, which hand is chosen is dependend upon them, and when there aren't - it just happens.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

No, there is no entity doing the choosing.

What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

There is no controller, it is just a process. In my direct experience, there is nothing making the hand move. There is intention of moving it, there is its movement, but nobody moving it.

How is the decision made?

A decision made implies that somebody is deciding. But there is nobody to decide!
Brilliant. Very good looking.
Let's also look for the idea free will on the next post..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:13 pm

Look back into the story of your life and find one important decision that you made. Could be anything. A proposal, choosing a house to buy, place to live..
Then ask this- could you have made a different decision at given circumstances?
Was that the best and only way to proceed?
Was there any free will involved, as in could you choose independently of situation? Was it you that made a choice or situation made you take the only way possible?
Can you choose something that is not "right"?

Write what you notice doing this exercise.
Then bring focus to here now.
Can anything be different than what it already is? If yes, How do you know that?
What is that made the choose to be here now?
Does it make a difference if you think that you made the choice to be here or not?
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha

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mockroot
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Re: Please guide me

Postby mockroot » Wed Dec 05, 2018 5:41 pm

Then ask this- could you have made a different decision at given circumstances?
Was that the best and only way to proceed?
Was there any free will involved, as in could you choose independently of situation? Was it you that made a choice or situation made you take the only way possible?

It happened. And since there was no one to make the decision, there could be no other way at given circumstances, and this was the only way to proceed. I'm not sure if it was the best way, because paths do not seem good or bad to me. There was only an illusion of free will, because there was no "I" to make the decision - so, the life unfolded in its only way.

Can you choose something that is not "right"?

In the relative moral sense - yes. There might be a "choice", which will lead to thoughts like: "This was a wrong thing to do", or other people may tell me that. But in reality there is nothing "right" or "wrong" - these are just concepts and ideas of the mind.

Can anything be different than what it already is? If yes, How do you know that?

I can only imagine something being different - and that is just a mind's story. Actually, there is only that which already is, now.

What is that made the choose to be here now?

Reading your message - "Then bring focus to here now." - made me do it.

Does it make a difference if you think that you made the choice to be here or not?

Actually, it doesn't, because these are just thoughts, and in reality it just happened.

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adilerten
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Re: Please guide me

Postby adilerten » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:46 pm

Then ask this- could you have made a different decision at given circumstances?
Was that the best and only way to proceed?
Was there any free will involved, as in could you choose independently of situation? Was it you that made a choice or situation made you take the only way possible?

It happened. And since there was no one to make the decision, there could be no other way at given circumstances, and this was the only way to proceed. I'm not sure if it was the best way, because paths do not seem good or bad to me. There was only an illusion of free will, because there was no "I" to make the decision - so, the life unfolded in its only way.

Can you choose something that is not "right"?

In the relative moral sense - yes. There might be a "choice", which will lead to thoughts like: "This was a wrong thing to do", or other people may tell me that. But in reality there is nothing "right" or "wrong" - these are just concepts and ideas of the mind.

Can anything be different than what it already is? If yes, How do you know that?

I can only imagine something being different - and that is just a mind's story. Actually, there is only that which already is, now.

What is that made the choose to be here now?

Reading your message - "Then bring focus to here now." - made me do it.

Does it make a difference if you think that you made the choice to be here or not?

Actually, it doesn't, because these are just thoughts, and in reality it just happened.
Very good.
Let's move on..
Events happen, deeds are done, but there is no individual doer thereof."
Buddha


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