This is it

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Mawi
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This is it

Postby Mawi » Fri Nov 23, 2018 6:28 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

To me it means that the body-mind is a functioning 'machine', fully conditioned, i.e. programmed by happenings and experiences in the past. All thoughts,feeings, perceptions and actions are automatic, they are a happening in the large play of consciousness. We could say everything that is happening within and through this body-mind is predetermined

What are you looking for at LU?

I seem to know the theory of it, and i have put so much work into trying to 'see' the Truth, and even though i may have seen it (during a near death experience), there is clearly still a sense of 'me', which creates suffering. I'd like this sense of 'me' to be truly seen as non-existant and be free from it forever. I also would love to help others to see, once I am free.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

Nothing in particular, just helping me to see....To be present to the obstacles i will put up without my knowing/wanting to...and show them to me...Someone compassionate for the 'stupidity' of still hanging on. I am actually feeling some fear already, writing this. Fear of the unknown...of not knowing how my life will be, and also fear it would not really change my life-experience in any way...

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

I have been on a spiritual path for over 30 years. Twenty years with an Indian Guru on a devotional path. then i had enough of rituals and mantras and felt it was not leading me to freedom. I then went to Oneness University in India, several times, and learned the theory of 'there is no doer', but it did not shift anything in my experience. After that, I found non-duality teachings, and watched lots of videos of Adyashanti and Spira. And then again, I felt I could get lost in the concepts and found Roger Castillo, and his Guru Ramesh Balsekar. This is the teaching which feels the most practical to me, because my desire is to be free from a suffering 'me'.
I have been six times to India, and the last time was with a radical Zen Master, two years ago. She relentlessly pointed to the truth, but I did not really truly get it, even though it helped me see to what extent thinking is involved in living, and how it's just thought! I had some aha moments and emotional relief with laughing and crying...but here i am, still...


On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

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suma
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Re: This is it

Postby suma » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:07 pm

Dear Mawi,

Welcome to LU.

My name is nina and I am happy to assist you with exploring the concept of the separate self.
there is clearly still a sense of 'me', which creates suffering. I'd like this sense of 'me' to be truly seen as non-existant and be free from it forever.
You have already a profound background.
What we offer here is to look at challenging concepts and beliefs.
To look at and question what you thought you are.

Lets see if there is a 'you' as you know it.


Please learn to use the quote function, here are the video instructions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Finally you can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

Are you ready?

with warm regards

nina
Now. Here. That.

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Mawi
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Re: This is it

Postby Mawi » Sun Nov 25, 2018 1:21 am

Dear Nina,
Thank you so much for your willingness to guide me.
I saw your note only tonight, as I did not know how to open the message. I will look at the video re: quotes.
And I am ready!
With gratitude,
Mawi

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suma
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Re: This is it

Postby suma » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:38 pm

Dear Mawi,

great!

Before we start just a few more generalities:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day.
If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience.
Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is.
If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue.


And finally: it is always advisable to save your post in a medium on your device. (Word or whatever)
Sometimes the page is not so stable, one never knows…good to have a copy saved.

I am actually feeling some fear already, writing this. Fear of the unknown...of not knowing how my life will be,
and also fear it would not really change my life-experience in any way...
This is very valuable. A good sign of something happening indeed!

So to get started and to become a bit more aware of what your expectations about this exploration are,
could you please answer in your own words the following questions:

1) How might life change when you directly experience the truth/no-self ?
2) How would you change then?
3) What will be different?
4) Can you name and specify what is missing presently to see the truth?


Whishing you all the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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Mawi
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Re: This is it

Postby Mawi » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:45 pm

Dear Nina,
Thank you for your questions.
1) How might life change when you directly experience the truth/no-self ?
2) How would you change then?
3) What will be different?
4) Can you name and specify what is missing presently to see the truth?
1) How might life change when you directly experience the truth/no-self ?
I think that the flow of life will be exactly continuing as it is meant to be. However, I guess that once there is clear awareness of no 'me', that then gradually thoughts related to this self-image (which is a thought), may be either seen as that and not acted upon, or even, gradually, disappear. Ex: fears, avoiding, trying to control others or life situations. In other words, I guess that there will be less resistance to the flow of life in form of avoidance, judgments, fears, and so there would be more lightness, carefreeness, acceptance of what is. In interpersonal relationships I guess words will not be taken personal any longer, so this of course would change the relationship for more allowing to be as it is.
2) How would you change then?
There would be more feelings of lightness, acceptance of how life unfolds, acceptance of how others are, and how this body-mind that I will still be, is.
3) What will be different?
I believe (there is the belief), that the flow of life, which means all events and interactions, will be as predeterminded as it has always been, that the programming of this body mind will continue to have it's preferences and dislikes, - but - there must be something different, otherwise, why would we bother doing this, right!? - i guess/hope, that the psychological reactions to what's happening, will gradually diminish and fall away: the judging, planning, fearing, avoiding, hoping, commenting, of what's going on in the moment. I know that hoping, as i just said, is an expression of non-acceptance of what is, so that's what I am doing now, when I am writing this...
Or, maybe, there will just be clearer seeing of the fact that all these stories behind judging, planning, fearing, avoiding, hoping, are just a bunch of words, meaning nothing.???? Well, that would be great too:).
4) Can you name and specify what is missing presently to see the truth?
I know the right answer would be 'nothing'. But I feel that something needs to happen that has not yet happened fully: the clear awareness of the absence, of the non-existence of a self, a me.

These are my answers, dear Nina. Looking forward to your response!
With gratitude,
Mawi

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suma
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Re: This is it

Postby suma » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:11 am

Dear Mawi,

thanks for the lovely answers.

Ex: fears, avoiding, trying to control others or life situations. In other words, I guess that there will be less resistance to the flow of life in form of avoidance, judgments, fears, and so there would be more lightness, carefreeness, acceptance of what is. In interpersonal relationships I guess words will not be taken personal

Yes, resistance towards the is-ness of the present moment might cease when seen as such.
So just looking at all the making of the mind is the key.


so this of course would change the relationship for more allowing to be as it is.

Yes, without the screen of conceptualization you may relate to others more truly.


There would be more feelings of lightness, acceptance of how life unfolds, acceptance of how others are, and how this body-mind that I will still be, is.
Maybe yes, maybe no, let’s see.
that the psychological reactions to what's happening, will gradually diminish and fall away: the judging, planning, fearing, avoiding, hoping, commenting, of what's
going on in the moment. I know that hoping, as i just said, is an expression of non-acceptance of what is, so that's what I am doing now, when I am writing this...

So you are already quite certain, that all that can be ‘done’ is to see non-acceptance as non-acceptance,
to see the futility in all that because what is - is just what is.
Although this is quite mere commonplace talking and you might know it already, don’t worry; we’re going into it step by step.


Or, maybe, there will just be clearer seeing of the fact that all these stories behind judging, planning, fearing, avoiding, hoping, are just a bunch of words, meaning nothing.???? Well, that would be great too:).
You might notice the substance-less-ness.

But I feel that something needs to happen that has not yet happened fully: the clear awareness of the absence, of the non-existence of a self, a me.
Yes, however awareness is always clear, there is nothing like unclear awareness.
Just notice yourself and your surroundings. The perception of all this is totally clear and in no way blurred.
Is there in that perception something like a self, a separate self necessary?

Ok, but now enough talking on my side.
Here comes an exercise to just go into it:


Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is
embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time.
Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects.
Just look at the seeing itself.
Observe the pure process of seeing.
This is direct experience (DE)

Please let me know how you go.

Whishing you all the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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Mawi
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Re: This is it

Postby Mawi » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:40 pm

Dear Nina,
Thank you for your inputs.
So here is my exercise:
Sit quietly and relax, take your time just looking at what is in front of you for awhile.
Observe how the mind is dividing and labelling every thing into objects and is
embellishing them with stories about what they are.
Give it some time.
I was looking at my nightstand and saw that each looking triggered an association of what the object is for, and even more strongly of a recent memory how I used this object. I did not notice an embellishment. It was interesting how much it was all about objects being ‘useful - to me’. If there’s a useful, there must be a hidden belief in a me. Ex: how I turned on the lamp last night, and how handy it is to have light. In sum, yes, I can clearly see how the mind tells stories about what is seen.
Then, stop watching the objects as labelled objects.
Just look at the seeing itself.
Observe the pure process of seeing.
This is direct experience (DE)
First I thought I had to look at the objects just as they are, and it took me while to see. I then noticed much more details in the objects. But then I read your instructions again and saw I need to pay attention to the seeing, and then I saw that wherever the eyes go, there is an appearance of objects. It’s a quick jumping into presence and when I look away it’s gone and something else jumps in. But to remain looking at one object is difficult, because then the mind comes in again with a story. As if I had to stop thinking in order to really see. Is that true? But then how would the stopping happen?

This is it for now, Nina.
Thank you so much! I highly enjoy this and feel privileged to having a ‘private teacher’, ha ha.

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suma
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Re: This is it

Postby suma » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:34 pm

Dear Mawi,
In sum, yes, I can clearly see how the mind tells stories about what is seen.
Very good!


I saw that wherever the eyes go, there is an appearance of objects. It’s a quick jumping into presence and when I look away it’s gone and something else jumps in. But to remain looking at one object is difficult, because then the mind comes in again with a story. As if I had to stop thinking in order to really see. Is that true? But then how would the stopping happen?

It is not that thoughts need to subside. Thoughts are just thoughts are just thoughts…
All that can and need to be seen is simply that there’s no truth in what thought says.
Who is the author of thoughts?
Is there anything authoring thoughts?
We are going to look a little later more precisely at thought.

In your introductory post you wrote that you had a near death experience.
Was this experience at the beginning of your ‘spiritual quest’, in the middle or had it nothing to do with it?

Would you like to write a bit about that?
To me it seems to be something like a ‘core-experience’ in your life.

Warm regards

nina
Now. Here. That.

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Mawi
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Re: This is it

Postby Mawi » Tue Nov 27, 2018 4:36 pm

Dear Nina,
It is not that thoughts need to subside. Thoughts are just thoughts are just thoughts…
Reading that, I felt a sense of relief, even though I knew that already, but not deeply enough, it seems.
But its good news!
In your introductory post you wrote that you had a near death experience.
Was this experience at the beginning of your ‘spiritual quest’, in the middle or had it nothing to do with it?

Would you like to write a bit about that?
To me it seems to be something like a ‘core-experience’ in your life.
Yes! I had the experience before an official spiritual search. Seven years before I received Shaktipat from a Guru in India. Already as a child, I told my friend that life was just like a sausage, and that when we feel bad, it's like a big peace of fat in the sausage, and then it passes by.
What happened in this Near Life experience :), is i must have slid on ice, walking on the street, and hit my head massively on the ice. A huge space opened up in front of me, like an explosion of eternity, and it was just space with a tunnel of light going upward. i felt such intense love and bliss, and I realized that i had never loved before in my life. I just knew "this is it" - this is what i have been looking for all my life, this is home. Pure bliss and love...there was classical music playing (I was a violin player back then), and all was well forever.
Then, all of a sudden the eyes opened, and i saw all these concerned faces hanging over me, and I thought, oh my God, there is so nothing to worry about!!!!!! I saw the people like staged objects, it was literally like a theater stage, and felt unreal. i faintly waved at them and slid back into this beautiful space. It must have lasted for a long time, and then all of a sudden was this voice, saying: 'You must go back, you haven't done your job yet.' And I did not want to! And my eyes opened and stared into glaring neon light, there were needles stuck in both arms and i was lying on a hospital bed, and all I thought was: Oh NO!!!
My life at that time was still so chaotic (emotional trouble), that the experience did not alter my experience of daily life. But of course this is something I'll never forget. It was a beautiful gift, and yes, it was 'just' an experience....When I received Shaktipat, the experience was again very similar. And that is already 27 years ago....
I was an encouragement for me to keep seeking, because I knew that how i experience life is not 'real'.
Feels good to remember this incredible event!
Thank you, Nina.

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suma
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Re: This is it

Postby suma » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:00 pm

this voice, saying: 'You must go back, you haven't done your job yet.'
Do you know the meaning of that?
I mean, do you know what kind of job was meant?
Now. Here. That.

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Mawi
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Re: This is it

Postby Mawi » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:09 pm

Yes, to help people heal and realize the truth. I am a psychologist/psychotherapist and I have been working now for 27 years, helping people become more aware of what is.

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suma
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Re: This is it

Postby suma » Wed Nov 28, 2018 3:54 pm

Dear Mawi,


thank you very much for the sharing of your experience.
I just knew "this is it" - this is what i have been looking for all my life, this is home. Pure bliss and love...

Lovely. And then there was a going ‘back’.


because I knew that how i experience life is not 'real'
You have seen that there is absolutely no substance behind.
And jet the ‘life in the movie’ came again, catching, demanding...?


and also fear it would not really change my life-experience in any way...
this was in your introductory post.
I just wanted to clarify the background a bit.

Yes, to help people heal and realize the truth. I am a psychologist/psychotherapist and I
have been working now for 27 years, helping people become more aware of what is.

Great.
How about seeing ‘it’ also in your present life situation?
Would it be fearful?


Ok, we might just continue.
Here is a further exercise about direct experience:

Please have a look at an apple.
If you have a ‘real’ apple, you can use it for this exercise.
Otherwise any fruit will do.

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’;
and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure?
Colour is known and thoughts are known.
What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…
because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘.
What you know for sure, and, is always here.
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

with warm regards

nina
Now. Here. That.

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Mawi
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Re: This is it

Postby Mawi » Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:55 pm

Dear Nina,
You have seen that there is absolutely no substance behind.
And jet the ‘life in the movie’ came again, catching, demanding...?
Yes, I got immediately wound up into this story of suffering, of being lost, of bla bla bla....It was clearly not 'my' time to wake up.
How about seeing ‘it’ also in your present life situation?
Would it be fearful?
Thank you so much for this question! I read it and immediately broke out in tears. I don't know why, but when i feel love, it makes me cry. And i 'saw it'!!! I was sitting by a little stand on the street in Mexico, all the motorcycles flying by, the cars, the palm trees swaying - I saw the whole movement of life passing and as the focus i saw the empty spaciousness, and i was filled with love. I then continued my bike ride, deeply touched...How loving of you to ask me this indeed very obvious question, which somehow only now falls deep inside! Whenever I think of 'it', without even thinking, its just a pointing, i have the experience of peace, love, gratitude. Waw! I have not yet tried it with people around....right now, i can feel it...I'm trying to see if i am somehow using memory, or if it's a direct experience...not sure; almost like a body memory (sensation) of dropping in, - i don't see there are thoughts...I am interested in what you think about this, Nina.
When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’;
and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure?
Colour is known and thoughts are known.
What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…
because that is only just more thought.

Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
Yes, I am looking at it (tomato), and i see red shape, with the thought tomato. If i don't use memory, I can see a red shape, on a white shape. Even color labeling actually uses memory - how is this a direct experience? I can see clearly that tomato is not in the experience; it's a meaning/description/story laid over top of the seen.
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘.
What you know for sure, and, is always here.
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?
I can see that an apple -or whatever - can't be known directly because it's a concept based on memory and labeling. I am not sure if we can say it just 'is', who cares what it is? feels a bit theoretical...and yet, yes, I can say: this is, this is, this is...right? But then when i look away, it isn't ...och...I will let you help me.
thank you!
Mawi

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suma
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Re: This is it

Postby suma » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:05 pm

Dear Mawi,


Thank you so much for this question!
I read it and immediately broke out in tears. I don't know why, but when i feel love, it makes me cry.
And i 'saw it'!!! I was sitting by a little stand on the street in Mexico, all the motorcycles flying by, the cars,
the palm trees swaying - I saw the whole movement of life passing and as the focus i saw the empty spaciousness,
and i was filled with love. I then continued my bike ride, deeply touched...How loving of you to ask me this
indeed very obvious question, which somehow only now falls deep inside! Whenever I think of 'it', without even
thinking, its just a pointing, i have the experience of peace, love, gratitude. Waw! I have not yet tried it with
people around....right now, i can feel it...I'm trying to see if i am somehow using memory, or if it's a direct experience...not sure; almost like a body memory (sensation) of dropping in, - i don't see there are thoughts...
I am interested in what you think about this, Nina.


This is beautiful!
Yes, the empty spaciousness and love is not something ‘outside’of life.
It is rather something like the fibres the whole fabric of life is made of.
It is always there, but mostly too obvious and too close to be seen.
All the tiniest parts of matter dance joyfully in this.
It is not a state of mind as it is not produced or made into something intentionally.
It is just the background or rather the substance of everything.

Just look at something in front of you; it can be a living object like a branch with leaves swaying in the breeze,
an animal, a little crawling beetle or a dog in the street; or just the pen, the table or the device you’re working on.
‘It’ is just there in everything;
in the dirty street in the midst of a crowded city or in a beautiful landscape.



I can see clearly that tomato is not in the experience; it's a meaning/description/story laid over top of the seen.
Very good.

I am not sure if we can say it just 'is', who cares what it is? feels a bit theoretical...and yet, yes, I can say: this is, this is, this is...right? But then when i look away, it isn't ...och...I will let you help me.


Ok, let’s have a little exercise about that:


Just take your hand in front of you and look at it.
Look at it for about at least a minute or so.
Notice the fact of its existence in your direct experience.
Look at it until you really become conscious:
‘Yes, this hand exists, here it is’

Now put your hand behind your back.
Look at your hand as if it would still be in front of you.
You don’t actually see it but imagine and think about your hand.


Take out your hand again: There it is.
This is actual.
Now put it away again and just look at it from memory.


Make sure to do this a couple of times.
Make the distinction of both perceptions very clear.

Is there any difference between these two ways of looking at the hand?
If so, what is the difference?


Wishing you all the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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Mawi
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Re: This is it

Postby Mawi » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:17 pm

Dear Nina,
Just look at something in front of you; it can be a living object like a branch with leaves swaying in the breeze,
an animal, a little crawling beetle or a dog in the street; or just the pen, the table or the device you’re working on.
‘It’ is just there in everything;
in the dirty street in the midst of a crowded city or in a beautiful landscape.
I have been with this on and off today, among moments of scary thoughts about my relationship (which are not real, not true), and it seems to me that it takes willingness to be aware of IT right here now. I notice there is this compulsive thinking going on, the feelings of suffering start, and then comes the reminder: stop! and i relax and am again aware of the presence of This..It's literally like flipping a switch! And all is well again. And then I wonder, do I still believe in a 'me'? It feels like its become thinner, less credible, it's quicker now to realize that compulsive thoughts are just that - nothing is going on in fact, except this here. Waw, feels like this is the right direction.
Just take your hand in front of you and look at it.
Look at it for about at least a minute or so.
Notice the fact of its existence in your direct experience.
Look at it until you really become conscious:
‘Yes, this hand exists, here it is’
Yes, i can clearly see the shape, the colors, but to say it's a hand, isn't that the same as to say this is a tomato? it uses memory to know this is a hand. A baby wouldn't know that. Anyway, I see the shape and color of this shape.
Now put your hand behind your back.
Look at your hand as if it would still be in front of you.
You don’t actually see it but imagine and think about your hand.
Is there any difference between these two ways of looking at the hand?
If so, what is the difference?
When I am hiding the hand, I am clearly aware that there is nothing, just thoughts about the hand, so its not here.
Yes, the difference is clearly that the former is a direct experience of shape and color and the latter is a memory/thought about it, but it is not it.
Thank you for your guidance!
Mawi


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