The unSelf

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:44 am

Hmmmmmm I did it again.....
Let me break it down and see if I notice what you are pointing to.

Walking from bedroom to kitchen the AE is sensation, seeing , hearing, thought.....
The body is walking from one room to another and stuff is "just appearing out of nowhere" in each moment as AE of color, shape.... thought is there doing the labeling of what is appearing. It's even labeling' out of nowhere'.

I'm stumped on this one and possibly tired too.

cj

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:44 am

Hi Cj,
Hmmmmmm I did it again.....
Let me break it down and see if I notice what you are pointing to.

Walking from bedroom to kitchen the AE is sensation, seeing , hearing, thought.....
The body is walking from one room to another and stuff is "just appearing out of nowhere" in each moment as AE of color, shape.... thought is there doing the labeling of what is appearing. It's even labeling' out of nowhere'.
Yes…so you noticed AE, which I wanted you to do and not just say that thoughts said it was changing.

So, if we just look at seeing ie AE of colour for now, is anything actually changing when you walk from one room to another?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:25 pm

Hi Kay,
So, if we just look at seeing ie AE of colour for now, is anything actually changing when you walk from one room to another?
Here's the thing, what I have unlearned so far is that the colors/shapes are all connected and it's thought that suggests separation. So, when I move from one room to the next it seems like things are changing but actually nothing is changing. Color/seeing is the same everywhere.


cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:28 pm

Hey Cj,
So, if we just look at seeing ie AE of colour for now, is anything actually changing when you walk from one room to another?
Here's the thing, what I have unlearned so far is that the colors/shapes are all connected and it's thought that suggests separation. So, when I move from one room to the next it seems like things are changing but actually nothing is changing. Color/seeing is the same everywhere.
Lovely....YES! :) You saw what I was trying to point at....nice :)

So is the 'here and now' a time and a place?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Mon Dec 10, 2018 11:00 pm

Hi Kay,
So is the 'here and now' a time and a place?
'Here and now' and 'time and place' are thought labels that facilitate communication. They do not exist in AE.


cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Dec 11, 2018 1:42 am

Hello Cj,
So is the 'here and now' a time and a place?
'Here and now' and 'time and place' are thought labels that facilitate communication. They do not exist in AE.
There is no here or now as 'now' does not refer to a time and 'here' does not refer to a place.
HereNow points to the current and evident knowing AS experience itself (THIS) which thought labels as sound, colour, smell, taste, thought and sensation.

So with this in mind...walk from one room to another and tell me if you see this clearly.

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Do that for today and report back what you find.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:22 pm

Hi Kay,
So is the 'here and now' a time and a place?
'Here and now' and 'time and place' are thought labels that facilitate communication. They do not exist in AE.
There is no here or now as 'now' does not refer to a time and 'here' does not refer to a place.
HereNow points to the current and evident knowing AS experience itself (THIS) which thought labels as sound, colour, smell, taste, thought and sensation.
So with this in mind...walk from one room to another and tell me if you see this clearly.
Yes

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?
Each and every time I turn to look at the mirror it`s a brand new looking! Every looking is new!
Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?
There are no previous appearances of the body only thought-story of the body.
Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?
The appearance is just appearing now with the thought-story claiming I`ve seen this body before.
It`s always now.

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:01 pm

Hey Cj,

Okay...so we have looked at time...so not let's look at the idea of 'memory'.

Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?


Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:44 am

Hi Kay,

What is memory exactly?
Memory is a label.
What is the memory ‘made of’?
It’s AE of thought, seeing and hearing. Kind of like a movie, visuals and narration.
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
They are the same. Both are thought-labels and both are fiction.
WHEN does the memory actually appear?
There is no control over memory because it is AE of thought. Thought is present in AE. Memory is the label.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Thought is AE. Content of thought is fiction. I guess it’s just known in the moment/now that it’s a story that is believed to have occurred in the past.
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
It’s the same as what I wrote for past. It’s AE of thought, seeing and hearing. Kind of like a movie.
WHEN does the future thought appear?
Same as past. It appears in the now. AE of thought but the content is labeled future or planning.
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
They are the same. Both are thought-labels and both are fiction.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
That is such a good question and it’s the same as the ‘past’ question you asked above.
It’s all fiction. I don’t know what is going to happen. There is a strong belief that “I” do know. It’s nonsense. It’s all fiction and all untrue. AE of thought labels these future nonsense stories. In the moment the thought is AE and contained in the thought, points to past or future. I would say though, it's just known that that the thought is of future.
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?
Past Thought: I remember being on a plane and going to visit my friend in BC. I remember feeling excited.
Future Thought: I have a tele-conference tomorrow and it’s all in French and it’s going to be very hard and maybe I will say something stupid. Then my colleagues will think I am dumb and what I have to say is of no value and I will be ashamed and I am worthless.
There is no difference between these 2 thoughts. They are both thought content of AE. Both contents are stories and not true.
The only thing that is true is AE (thought,seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensation), which is right now. Memories of the past, and future projections, are not real.
cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:14 am

Hi again,

After I hit Submit I was thinking about the last question more...... and I think I am not grasping it.

try again:

Past thought: Smoking is dangerous, I know people that have died from lung cancer related to smoking.
Future thought: I am going to get sick if I keep smoking.

According to what I have unlearned so far both thoughts are fiction. However, it is known that smoking causes cancer. Is that a past thought or a knowing?

In AE there is thought and it is known that smoking causes cancer is the content...a fiction. Yet, it seems real.
Hmmmm I guess right now in this moment, if smoking is happening then it's AE of sensation, seeing, smelling tasting, thought (pointing to cancer). But cancer isn't happening. Even still, how is it known that smoking is a bad idea?

I am going in circles.

My head is spinning......It's good to write it out, though.

Thanks,
cj

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Dec 12, 2018 3:14 am

Hello Cj,
What is memory exactly?
Memory is a label.
Yes, memory is AE of thought
What is the memory ‘made of’?
It’s AE of thought, seeing and hearing. Kind of like a movie, visuals and narration.
Hmmm…there is no time, so how can memory be made of seeing and hearing?
How is it known that a colour/image has been seen before?
If the image/sound is not appearing in this moment, how could it be known?


Is not 'narration' and thought one and the same?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
They are the same. Both are thought-labels and both are fiction.
Thought itself is not fiction. It is the content of thought ie thoughts about thought and AE that are fiction.
WHEN does the memory actually appear?
There is no control over memory because it is AE of thought. Thought is present in AE. Memory is the label.
'When' implies time. So let’s say you had an ice-cream yesterday and thoughts and mental images are appearing about that now. When is that memory actually appearing? Is it a 'memory' or only thoughts about a memory?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Thought is AE. Content of thought is fiction. I guess it’s just known in the moment/now that it’s a story that is believed to have occurred in the past.
When someone writes "I guess"...it says to me that looking was on the back burner and not in the forefront!

How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
What is it exactly that is believing that “it’s a story that is believed to have occurred in the past”?
To what exactly has ‘something happened in the past’?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
It’s the same as what I wrote for past. It’s AE of thought, seeing and hearing. Kind of like a movie.
What exactly is it that is “seeing and hearing”
What is it exactly that has a ‘memory’?
Where would these ‘memories’ of seeing and hearing be stored exactly?
What is the AE of ‘future’?

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
That is such a good question and it’s the same as the ‘past’ question you asked above.
See my response to the ‘past’ question.
It’s all fiction. I don’t know what is going to happen. There is a strong belief that “I” do know. It’s nonsense. It’s all fiction and all untrue. AE of thought labels these future nonsense stories. In the moment the thought is AE and contained in the thought, points to past or future. I would say though, it's just known that that the thought is of future.
Without thought labelling thought as ‘past’ or ‘future’, how could this be known or are only thoughts ABOUT a past and a future known?
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?
Past Thought: I remember being on a plane and going to visit my friend in BC. I remember feeling excited.
Future Thought: I have a tele-conference tomorrow and it’s all in French and it’s going to be very hard and maybe I will say something stupid. Then my colleagues will think I am dumb and what I have to say is of no value and I will be ashamed and I am worthless.
Perhaps you need to go back and revisit the Time exercise, because it seems you must not have looked very well when doing that exercise if your response to these questions are as above.

What is it exactly that is 'ashamed and worthless"
Since there is no separate self, how can there 'others' who are separate selves?

There is no difference between these 2 thoughts. They are both thought content of AE. Both contents are stories and not true.
The only thing that is true is AE (thought,seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensation), which is right now. Memories of the past, and future projections, are not real.
What is it exactly that is thinking, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or feeling? These points to verbs…which means that there is someone/something that is experiencing these. Where is the experiencer of experience?
Past thought: Smoking is dangerous, I know people that have died from lung cancer related to smoking.
Future thought: I am going to get sick if I keep smoking.
And how is this known? Yes, that is ‘knowledge’ and knowledge is thought but what is the actual experience? And when are those thoughts actually appearing?
Where is the actual evidence about smoking and about getting sick from smoking?
You are going on the content of thought. What is the content of thought?

According to what I have unlearned so far both thoughts are fiction. However, it is known that smoking causes cancer. Is that a past thought or a knowing?
Knowledge ABOUT something is thought. Knowing AS (the appearance) is direct/actual. You are aware of all the thoughts stories (knowledge) but where in actual experience it, is it not simply AE of thought?

Does colour, thought, smell, sensation, taste or sound smoke or die from cancer?
In AE there is thought and it is known that smoking causes cancer is the content...a fiction. Yet, it seems real.
No, the thought “smoking causes lung cancer” is known because it is AE of thought…where in AE can that be found/known?
Hmmmm I guess right now in this moment, if smoking is happening then it's AE of sensation, seeing, smelling tasting, thought (pointing to cancer). But cancer isn't happening. Even still, how is it known that smoking is a bad idea?


Yes…lovely to see you breaking it down into AE. Smoking and cancer are seeming appearances in the dream, just as is the separate self. We are not denying that they appear, however, we are denying that they are something separate and different to experience/THIS. THIS/experience itself SEEMS to be appearing as the smoke, smoker, smoking and cancer, just like THIS/experience SEEMS to be appearing as an apple - but THIS does not become what it appears as.

Just like in a night time dream, if it was dreamed that you were smoking and dying of cancer…are you really? Can the character in the dream actually smoke and die from cancer? Can the dreamer die from dreaming they are a smoker and dying of cancer? Or are the dreamer and the dream one and the same?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:17 pm

Hi Kay,
This took all day to think about.
What is the memory ‘made of’?
It’s AE of thought, seeing and hearing. Kind of like a movie, visuals and narration.
Hmmm…there is no time, so how can memory be made of seeing and hearing?
Memory is not made of anything. It’s the thought content of AE-Thought.
How is it known that a colour/image has been seen before?
It can’t be known. Thought content suggests it.
If the image/sound is not appearing in this moment, how could it be known?
It can’t be known
Is not 'narration' and thought one and the same?
Yes, they are the same.
WHEN does the memory actually appear?
There is no control over memory because it is AE of thought. Thought is present in AE. Memory is the label.
'When' implies time. So let’s say you had an ice-cream yesterday and thoughts and mental images are appearing about that now. When is that memory actually appearing? Is it a 'memory' or only thoughts about a memory?
The memory is appearing in AE, now. It is thoughts about a memory.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Thought is AE. Content of thought is fiction. I guess it’s just known in the moment/now that it’s a story that is believed to have occurred in the past.
When someone writes "I guess"...it says to me that looking was on the back burner and not in the forefront!
It’s weird because the time one came so easily.
How is it known that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
It’s thought about thought.
What is it exactly that is believing that “it’s a story that is believed to have occurred in the past”
?
Nothing is believing. There is nothing to believe. It’s AE of thought in the now.
To what exactly has ‘something happened in the past’?
Nothing has happened in the past. Past is a label. Past does not exist.
What exactly is it that is “seeing and hearing”
Nothing. There is only AE of hearing, seeing in this moment.
What is it exactly that has a ‘memory’?
Nothing has a memory. Memory is AE of thought
Where would these ‘memories’ of seeing and hearing be stored exactly?
Memory is a label, it doesn’t exist and so it can’t be stored anywhere.
What is the AE of ‘future’?
‘Future’ is a label. AE of this label ‘future’ is thought about a thought.
Without thought labelling thought as ‘past’ or ‘future’, how could this be known or are only thoughts ABOUT a past and a future known?
It can’t be known, it is only thoughts about past and future. Thoughts about thought….

What is it exactly that is 'ashamed and worthless"
Nothing. There is nothing that can be ashamed and worthless. Ashamed and worthless are thought content, labels. They don’t exist in AE. A thought cannot become itself.
Since there is no separate self, how can there 'others' who are separate selves?
There are no ‘others’. There is nobody who can think anything.
What is it exactly that is thinking, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or feeling? These points to verbs…which means that there is someone/something that is experiencing these. Where is the experiencer of experience?
There is no experiencer. There is only experience.
And how is this known? Yes, that is ‘knowledge’ and knowledge is thought but what is the actual experience? And when are those thoughts actually appearing?
Where is the actual evidence about smoking and about getting sick from smoking?
You are going on the content of thought. What is the content of thought?
The actual experience is thought. Past and future thoughts are appearing now in AE. They are not real or AE themselves. Thinking does not make it so. Thinking is not alive. Content of thought is the stories. It is not real.
Knowledge ABOUT something is thought. Knowing AS (the appearance) is direct/actual. You are aware of all the thoughts stories (knowledge) but where in actual experience it, is it not simply AE of thought?
Does colour, thought, smell, sensation, taste or sound smoke or die from cancer?
It’s all AE of thought. Color,thought,smell, sensation, taste, sound cannot die from cancer!
In AE there is thought and it is known that smoking causes cancer is the content...a fiction. Yet, it seems real.
No, the thought “smoking causes lung cancer” is known because it is AE of thought…where in AE can that be found/known?
Oh!!! That makes sense. A thought (eg. smoking causes lung cancer) is known BECAUSE it is AE of thought which is happening right now.
Just like in a night time dream, if it was dreamed that you were smoking and dying of cancer…are you really? Can the character in the dream actually smoke and die from cancer? Can the dreamer die from dreaming they are a smoker and dying of cancer? Or are the dreamer and the dream one and the same?
You aren’t really dying. The character in the dream isn’t’ really smoking. The dreamer cannot die from dreaming they are a smoker and dying. The dreamer and the dream are the same.

cj
Ps I am a smoking cessation counselor. The example above will really help me help my patients.

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:05 pm

Hello Cj,
What is the memory ‘made of’?
It’s AE of thought, seeing and hearing. Kind of like a movie, visuals and narration.
Hmmm…there is no time, so how can memory be made of seeing and hearing?
Memory is not made of anything. It’s the thought content of AE-Thought.
'Memory' is a thought, so it is 'made of' thought. In other words it is simply AE of thought.
What is it exactly that is thinking, seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or feeling? These points to verbs…which means that there is someone/something that is experiencing these. Where is the experiencer of experience?
There is no experiencer. There is only experience.
To experience "the taste of ice cream", you would have to be separate from the taste of ice cream. But if you ARE "taste of ice cream", you can only be aware of being the taste of ice cream.
Do you see the difference?


Thought points to colour and sensation and suggests that it is a body. Can colour or sensation taste? Can taste taste?
In AE there is thought and it is known that smoking causes cancer is the content...a fiction. Yet, it seems real.
No, the thought “smoking causes lung cancer” is known because it is AE of
thought…where in AE can that be found/known?
Oh!!! That makes sense. A thought (eg. smoking causes lung cancer) is known BECAUSE it is AE of thought which is happening right now.

Yes. “My friend died of lung cancer from smoking” is AE as thought that is appearing now. Where in thought can a friend who died of lung cancer from smoking be found?
Just like in a night time dream, if it was dreamed that you were smoking and dying of cancer…are you really? Can the character in the dream actually smoke and die from cancer? Can the dreamer die from dreaming they are a smoker and dying of cancer? Or are the dreamer and the dream one and the same?
You aren’t really dying. The character in the dream isn’t’ really smoking. The dreamer cannot die from dreaming they are a smoker and dying. The dreamer and the dream are the same.
Yes, so if THIS was actually in the dream and died...then nothing would exist at all - ever again!

Experience may appear as 'blue' but that does not mean experience is blue.
'Blue' is experience, experience is not 'blue'.
(Blue is appearing/showing up as experience but experience is not blue)
If experience was actually 'blue' then it could not be anything but blue.
Ps I am a smoking cessation counselor. The example above will really help me help my patients.
I would like for to do the following exercise. This is for your benefit but it may also be of help to your clients.

1. Put aside 10 minutes and sit quietly with your eyes closed.
2. Think of a story that brings up the sensation ‘anxiety’ - one that you can feel in the body but not too intense that it overwhelms you.
3. Then with eyes still closed, I want you to LOOK very very carefully to see if you can find/see an actual link between the thought and the sensation. You are looking to find if there is something (other than thought) that links the thought/story with the sensation.
4. If the sensation starts to dissipate/weaken, then bring the story to mind again until the sensation is felt, then continue looking to see if you can see/find a link. You are looking for an actual link that connects the thought/story with the sensation.
5. If you find yourself following thought instead of looking carefully for the link, just bring your attention gently back to the sensation and continue looking.

Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout the next 2-3 days making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:30 pm

Hi Kay,
To experience "the taste of ice cream", you would have to be separate from the taste of ice cream. But if you ARE "taste of ice cream", you can only be aware of being the taste of ice cream.
Do you see the difference?
Yes. When I am patting my dog, it is just patting (sensation). There is no patter, there is only patting. It’s thought that suggests he is a dog with fur and that he is separate from Cj. The truth is, there is no separation, no dog, no Cj, just AE.
Thought points to colour and sensation and suggests that it is a body. Can colour or sensation taste? Can taste taste?
Colour or sensation or taste canNOT taste. Patting cannot pat.
Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout the next 2-3 days making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.
I have taken a couple of days to do this, as you suggested, and this is what I have found:

The sensation called ‘anxiety’ is a label.

There is a sensation, somehow it became labeled as anxiety. How do I even know that?? I don't.

AE contains no anxiety. It’s just now/experience. It’s just thought,seeing,hearing,smelling,tasting, sensation. I don’t see ‘anxiety’ in AE.

‘Anxiety’ is a label/construct of thought. Thought is AE, yes. Thought content is NOT AE. ‘Anxiety’ is thought content therefore it does not exist. There is no anxious/Cj. There is only AE. Thought says CJ is anxious and makes it seem like Cj is separate but there is only thought/story. Anxiety is not real and neither is Cj. So weird….

I am starting to have moments where it’s only AE and separation drops. It’s so cool and free and open and big! But inevitably the feeling/thought/story of separation returns and I am left wondering did I actually see through the illusion? This is what you described in a previous post about yo-yoing.

Lately, AE is actually being experienced! Sounds and seeing, smelling, sensations….all so rich…..
and of course thoughts present in AE but the thought/story/content is passing by like clouds….There is less believing and more now/experiencing.


Cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Dec 14, 2018 9:52 pm

Hello Cj,

Did you find an actual link between the thought "I am anxious" and the sensation itself when doing the exercise given? With your eyes closed and being aware of both thought and sensation...did you see anything that actually linked them?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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