The unSelf

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:12 pm

Hey Cj,

Nice looking as usual! :)
Can there be a knowing with a known, or a known without the knowing AS it?
There is only knowing

Okay…now to have a look if you can find that which is labelled as ‘awareness’?
Cannot find what is labeled as awareness. There is only awareness.

You found that there is no dividing line between sound and hearer, there is just AE of sound…so is there something that is aware of the sound (which points to subject/object split) or is there knowing AS the sound?
There is only knowing AS sound.
Is the experience (ie sound) and the awareness of sound two things? Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?
When you see a painting of a tree, does the paint become the tree, or does the paint remain paint? Isn’t the tree still paint?
The tree is paint.
Yes…paint doesn’t become the tree. Paint seems to be appearing as a tree. So experience always remains the same. Experience doesn’t become an object; experience SEEMS to appear as an object.
Hmmm…and where is this “false I’ located exactly?
False “I” is experience appearing as thought!
No location. Just illusion.
Yes lovely!
Does the sky become the clouds? Is the sky affected by clouds, or does the sky remain the sky?
The sky does not become clouds and clouds do not affect the sky. The sky is just sky.
Yes. Nothing that experience appears as can affect experience itself. Thoughts don't magically change the nature of "THIS" (experience), to suit what they are saying.

"THIS" does not conform to what thoughts say about it. So thought can point to colour labelled “I/me/Cj/body”, but that doesn’t mean THIS/experience becomes a person/body. A person is no different to the tree. Can a tree be found in the paint, or is it thought that points to colour and shape and labels it ‘tree’?
Is the voice in the head AE of sound or is it AE of thought?
The voice in the head is AE of thought.
YES! Thought is not heard, smelled, tasted, seen or felt. It is simply known, just as is colour, smell, taste, sound and sensation.

Okay, we have touched on the idea of choice/decisions with the hand flipping exercise. Let’s continue with this a little further.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 11:57 pm

Hi Kay,

Is the experience (ie sound) and the awareness of sound two things?
Just one thing.
Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?
Experience is self-aware.
Can a tree be found in the paint, or is it thought that points to colour and shape and labels it ‘tree’?
It is thought that points to color and shape and labels it.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities?
No
Or did they kind of appear by themselves?
Appeared by themselves.
If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
No choosing happened.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
No choosing happened. It happened on its own.
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
No
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
No direct mental functioning did any choosing. There was no choice.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
No. It just happened.
Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
No chooser came up.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’?
Very cool, because yes we do describe it as a feeling, but feelings can’t choose.
Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
Haha nope, feelings can't choose.

Cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:50 am

Hello Cj,
Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?
Experience is self-aware.
Can a tree be found in the paint, or is it thought that points to colour and shape and labels it ‘tree’?
It is thought that points to color and shape and labels it.
So is it clear what is being pointed to here?

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 8:41 pm

Hi Kay,
So is it clear what is being pointed to here?
Crystal
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see?
No choice, it just appears as it is.
I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
Seeing cannot be turned off. It is was is there.
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
Nope
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
Nope
Can you turn off seeing?
Cannot
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
The self did not choose. Seeing is already there.
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
There is nothing to choose. It just is as it is, every moment. (I did not get upset eating extra onion rings today, because there was no choice. I just ate it. After I ate it, the thought came that maybe I ate too many. Ha!)

After my meditation practice, where I was still for quite some time, I noticed that the body is the same as the cushion and the lamp and the floor. Thoughts point to lines and division of these items. Thoughts cover up the non-duality.

I noticed that the tinnitus (ringing in my ears) is the same as the dog barking The thoughts point to "in my head" and "dog barking" but actually they are the same.

I noticed that when I put a hot salt rock in my hand, I can feel it in my hand. When I closed my eyes the hand dropped away and it was just sensation. Closing my eyes and looking at black makes it easier to feel sensation without open eye looking.
I opened my eyes and I felt the sensation and knew that it was just sensation. There was no hand just a thought of it.

I feel like I am very slowly waking up. Little Ha! moments here and there. Still work in progress. Thank you for your guiding it's extremely helpful.

Cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 9:25 pm

Dear Kay,

When I judge you (not you literally Kay...just another human)….when I criticize and say mean things about you…

You are only awareness of looking (color, shape, sound) ….You are a fiction... that the thoughts pointed to.
I am judging and being mean to a picture, a story, a fiction.

Non-dual awareness includes you in this oneness. When I judge you am I not really just judging me?

When I look at you and say something with love....am I not saying something with love to me?.... because we are not separate.....we are one.

I wanted to share the above with you. Hope that is ok.

cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:07 am

Hey CJ,

I have given you quite a bit to look at in this post. Take a few days if needed.
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
There is nothing to choose. It just is as it is, every moment. (I did not get upset eating extra onion rings today, because there was no choice. I just ate it. After I ate it, the thought came that maybe I ate too many. Ha!)
Yes, thought comes in with commentary on everything. The following exercise gives you a clear look at this.

The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with. Notice how the sports commentator is like the 'inner narrator' labelled 'my thoughts'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

After my meditation practice, where I was still for quite some time, I noticed that the body is the same as the cushion and the lamp and the floor. Thoughts point to lines and division of these items. Thoughts cover up the non-duality.
Nice! Great that you saw the body is just part of the abstraction. Thought places imaginary borders between things and then labels them, and overlays experience itself (THIS) with stories. It is quite amazing to how the illusion is perpetuated when you become aware of it.

If you look at this again, can you find space/distance?
I noticed that the tinnitus (ringing in my ears) is the same as the dog barking The thoughts point to "in my head" and "dog barking" but actually they are the same.
Yes, sound is sound. It is only thought that differentiates sound and then labels sound as tinnitus and dog barking and car horn, and wind etc
I noticed that when I put a hot salt rock in my hand, I can feel it in my hand. When I closed my eyes the hand dropped away and it was just sensation. Closing my eyes and looking at black makes it easier to feel sensation without open eye looking.
I opened my eyes and I felt the sensation and knew that it was just sensation. There was no hand just a thought of it.
Lovely!

Here is an interesting clip about sight and sensation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be
When I judge you (not you literally Kay...just another human)….when I criticize and say mean things about you…

You are only awareness of looking (color, shape, sound) ….You are a fiction... that the thoughts pointed to.
I am judging and being mean to a picture, a story, a fiction.

Non-dual awareness includes you in this oneness. When I judge you am I not really just judging me?
Can you find an author/thinker of thought? Can you predict what thought is going to appear and when?

What is the AE of ‘judgement’? How is it known that a thought is a judgement thought or a loving thought? Does thought have meaning? Without thought ‘interpreting’ thought and without thought seeming to give thought meaning, what is thought exactly?

Does thought actually know anything about thought content (does thought know thought?

Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?
Experience is self-aware.
Can a tree be found in the paint, or is it thought that points to colour and shape and labels it ‘tree’?
It is thought that points to color and shape and labels it.
So is it clear what is being pointed to here?
Crystal
So perhaps this isn’t quite clear yet. Let’s look at the tree and paint analogy again.

Image
Can a tree actually be found in the paint?
Does the paint become a tree, or is the tree simply paint which thought then suggests is a tree and is separate to the paint?
Does the tree change or affect the paint in any way or does the paint remain as paint?
So the paint SEEMS to be appearing as a tree, but does it become a tree?
So, can an actual thought be found in experience/THIS itself? Is experience actually divided into thought AND sound AND colour AND sensation AND smell AND taste? What is it that divides experience into categories and then labels and overlays them with stories? Or does thoughtsoundcoloursensationsmelltaste = experience/THIS which is whole and undivided?

Are there many different thoughts? Are there many different colours, sounds, tastes, sensations and smells? Could it simply be a thought that suggests thoughts are something called ‘thoughts and says all thoughts are different due to their differing meaning/content?

Does the actual experience of thought differ just because the content of the thought is different?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Sun Dec 02, 2018 9:40 pm

Hi Kay,
Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?
Sound off: players playing, colors, and movement
Sound on: the commentator is annoying…He commentates after something happens.
Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?
Not at all
And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No
If you look at this again, can you find space/distance?
Thought creates the idea of space and distance but they can’t be found.
Can you find an author/thinker of thought?
No. Thoughts just happen.
Can you predict what thought is going to appear and when?
No. Thoughts just appear and disappear.
What is the AE of ‘judgement’?
There is a no AE of judgment. It’s AE of thought. Judgment is the content of a thought that is pointing to another thought.
How is it known that a thought is a judgement thought or a loving thought?
A thought is just a thought. It’s always the same experience. The content differs and the content is just known.
Does thought have meaning?
No meaning.
Without thought ‘interpreting’ thought and without thought seeming to give thought meaning, what is thought exactly?
It’s just an AE like sound, seeing, feeling, tasting
Does thought actually know anything about thought content does thought know thought?
Thought can’t know thought.
So, can an actual thought be found in experience/THIS itself?
Yes. Thought is AE.
Is experience actually divided into thought AND sound AND colour AND sensation AND smell AND taste?
No. It is all going on at once.
What is it that divides experience into categories and then labels and overlays them with stories? Or does thoughtsoundcoloursensationsmelltaste = experience/THIS which is whole and undivided?
Thoughtsoundcoloursensationsmelltaste are whole and undivided.
Are there many different thoughts?
No. There is only thought.
Are there many different colours, sounds, tastes, sensations and smells?
There is only color, sound, taste, sensation, smell, thought
Could it simply be a thought that suggests thoughts are something called ‘thoughts and says all thoughts are different due to their differing meaning/content?
It seems that thoughts are different but a thought is thought. It is the same no matter what the content.
Does the actual experience of thought differ just because the content of the thought is different?
No. The actual experience of thought is always the same.

xox
Cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:51 pm

Hello Cj,
Let me know what you notice when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?
Sound off: players playing, colors, and movement
Sound on: the commentator is annoying…He commentates after something happens.
So you see how thoughts are just like the commentator.

Are there players playing or is there simply colours which thought labels as players?

So you see how thought seems to be the predominant experience, however, if you just allow (watch/observe) thought without actually following thought, you see that thought is just a constant stream of commentary that has a story about everything as it overlays experience continuously with stories.

So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Cj’ and ‘her life’?

Did you notice how the muted video left you rather neutral towards the apparent happenings on screen, while the commentary version of the game kind of sucked you into the story that the commentator was telling. If there is no commentary to ‘suck you in’, then everything is neutral. It is only the commentary that overlays what is appearing that seemingly gives meaning to what is happening and draws ‘you’ into the story of being a separate self. And as you saw, the commentary is usually about what has happened or it goes on about what should happen (in the future) and what should or should not have happened, or did happen in the past.
So this is how it goes with the story about a character called ‘Cj’!


I would like you to go back to the tree and the questions asked there because you haven’t seen what I am pointing to. The tree analogy was to help point to seeing that experience/THIS is not divided into many different categories labelled as thought AND smell AND taste AND sensation AND colour AND sound…they are all simple labels that overlay experience/THIS which is undivided and whole.

Look at the tree analogy again. Does the paint (experience/THIS) become the tree or is the tree actually the paint and is not separate and divided at all from the paint? Is not the tree ‘made of’ the same substance as the paint...because it is the paint and not really a tree?

So experience/THIS can be likened to an abstract ‘alive’ painting, which is whole and undivided, and you ignore how thought labels it, then can something labelled as a thought actually be found as a separate thing? Can sound, colour, smell, taste, thought and sensation actually be found as separate individual things that are separate and different to each other?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:47 am

Hello Kay,
Are there players playing or is there simply colours which thought labels as players?
It appears to be only colours and thought labels them as players, girls, etc…
So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Cj’ and ‘her life’?
Yes, I can absolutely see this.

Look at the tree analogy again. Does the paint (experience/THIS) become the tree or is the tree actually the paint and is not separate and divided at all from the paint? Is not the tree ‘made of’ the same substance as the paint...because it is the paint and not really a tree?
The picture of the tree is made from paint. It’s not really a tree it’s paint that the mind labels as tree.
So experience/THIS can be likened to an abstract ‘alive’ painting, which is whole and undivided, and you ignore how thought labels it, then can something labelled as a thought actually be found as a separate thing? Can sound, colour, smell, taste, thought and sensation actually be found as separate individual things that are separate and different to each other?
Experience can also be analogous to a movie being projected on to a screen. It’s all one whole experience. Nothing can be separate. Movie/experience is just one thing. There are actually no divisions. It is just experience.

cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:02 am

Hi cj,
Look at the tree analogy again. Does the paint (experience/THIS) become the tree or is the tree actually the paint and is not separate and divided at all from the paint? Is not the tree ‘made of’ the same substance as the paint...because it is the paint and not really a tree?
The picture of the tree is made from paint. It’s not really a tree it’s paint that the mind labels as tree.
Yes and can you see how thought is 'paint' (experience/THIS) that thought labels as thought?
So experience/THIS can be likened to an abstract ‘alive’ painting, which is whole and undivided, and you ignore how thought labels it, then can something labelled as a thought actually be found as a separate thing? Can sound, colour, smell, taste, thought and sensation actually be found as separate individual things that are separate and different to each other?
Experience can also be analogous to a movie being projected on to a screen. It’s all one whole experience. Nothing can be separate. Movie/experience is just one thing. There are actually no divisions. It is just experience.
Yes, so is thought something different to experience itself? Is thought actually how thought describes itself, or is experience/THIS being artificially divided and being called 'thought'?

The only problem with the screen and movie analogy is that there is an idea that something is being projected onto something else. That there is a screen behind the movie. The screen and the movie are one and the same, however the screen doesn't become the movie...it is appearing as the movie.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:21 am

Yes and can you see how thought is 'paint' (experience/THIS) that thought labels as thought?
I don't this question Thought labels thought? If this is true then it would be infinite, no? Thought labelling thought labelling thought.....
Yes, so is thought something different to experience itself? Is thought actually how thought describes itself, or is experience/THIS being artificially divided and being called 'thought'?
Thought is experience.
Experience is being artificially divided (I like that!) by thought contents.

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:50 am

Yes and can you see how thought is 'paint' (experience/THIS) that thought labels as thought?
I don't this question Thought labels thought? If this is true then it would be infinite, no? Thought labelling thought labelling thought.....
Thought is a concept, just like the tree is in the paint analogy. Is it not an appearing automatic ‘thought’ that labels experience as ‘colour’, ‘sound’, ‘smell’, ‘taste’, ‘thought’, ‘sensation’? If you drop ALL of those labels, what is actually there?
Yes, so is thought something different to experience itself? Is thought actually how thought describes itself, or is experience/THIS being artificially divided and being called 'thought'?
Thought is experience.
Experience is being artificially divided (I like that!) by thought contents.
Yes, thought is experience. Experience SEEMS to be appearing as thought. Thought is not experienced by anyone or anything.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:01 am

Hi Kay,
Thought is a concept, just like the tree is in the paint analogy. Is it not an appearing automatic ‘thought’ that labels experience as ‘colour’, ‘sound’, ‘smell’, ‘taste’, ‘thought’, ‘sensation’? If you drop ALL of those labels, what is actually there?
Experience. That is it.


xox
cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:01 am

Hey Cj,
Thought is a concept, just like the tree is in the paint analogy. Is it not an appearing automatic ‘thought’ that labels experience as ‘colour’, ‘sound’, ‘smell’, ‘taste’, ‘thought’, ‘sensation’? If you drop ALL of those labels, what is actually there?
Experience. That is it.
Yes, so does thought, in and of itself have any meaning?

Okay, do you have any questions about what we have explored so far?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:24 pm

Good Afternoon Kay,
Yes, so does thought, in and of itself have any meaning?
Thought has absolutely no meaning.
Okay, do you have any questions about what we have explored so far?
I’m starting to catch glimpses of non-duality. What we have covered so far is great. Thank you.

If the Cj-thought/chatter had a volume control like the soccer game, that would be helpful. The damn thought contents are so easy to attach to.

For example:
I had a tough time at the dentist today. When I managed to calm down for a few moments here and there. There was just experience. Drilling = sound and sensation. Nothing to attach to. But the stories were rolling and the dentist experience was unpleasant because of the stories.

How do we drop the stories and just live experience?

I am really enjoying this process of seeing through the illusion. I am not going to lie, sometimes it has been frustrating. When I do see through for a moment it's mind blowing though. I am wondering why the duality keeps persisting. It's so obvious that everything is one yet the dual nature is very strong.

Yesterday after my last post to you, there was anger. I felt like it's a cosmic joke. What have I been doing all these years listening to a fictitious asshole in my head telling me I'm not good enough, judging others, and just constant blah blah blah. All the wasted time spent planning....all the goals....ugh....there is no free will. Things just happen. Everything is unfolding in the moment. Almost feel like why bother doing anything... Now I understand why monks can meditate their whole lives.

xox
cj


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