The unSelf

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:17 pm

Good Morning Kay!

Where are they coming from and going to?

Thoughts are not coming from anywhere and they aren’t going somewhere. They are just there in the moment.


Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Haha nope!

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Absolutely not.
Can you predict your next thought?
Not possible.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
I wish but not possible.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No. There is no choice.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

Not a chance!
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Never
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
It would seem that thought has a logical ordered appearance. It feels that way. However, with this exploration, I realize that it’s not possible. It only “feels” that way because a thought is saying so. But a thought is a story, a fiction, not true……
It’s a thought commenting on a previous thought, independent from previous thought! Ha!

Have great day!
Cj

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Nov 24, 2018 10:36 pm

Hey CJ,

Great looking with that exercise.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
It would seem that thought has a logical ordered appearance. It feels that way. However, with this exploration, I realize that it’s not possible. It only “feels” that way because a thought is saying so. But a thought is a story, a fiction, not true……
It’s a thought commenting on a previous thought, independent from previous thought! Ha!
Yes..it only "feels" that way because a thought is saying so!

Thought either points to AE or they point to thoughts about thought. If COLOURS, labelled as ‘sunset’, are actual experience in this very moment…then those colours are real because they are actually appearing in this moment and are not being imagined. So the thought/label ‘sunset, in that moment is pointing to colours, and colours are actual experience (thought pointing to AE). The thoughts about what a sunset is etc are the story. These thoughts are the content of the label/thought ‘sunset’ and are thoughts about thoughts.
Can you see the difference?

Here is an exercise which points out the difference between actual experience and content of thought.

There are two types of thoughts:
(1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
(2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real (actual experience) only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:48 pm

Hi Kay,

I spent the day working on project "realization of no self". It's my day off today :) It gets dark early......!
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
This is where I am now. I was thinking I was going to exercise, when I woke up. Then thoughts came of not wanting to....laziness, cold outside, etc... this all AE for thought and it's all commentary or content on the future. Hmmm only right now is real so I don't need to believe these thoughts. HA!!! If I end up at the gym, that's where I will be. If I don't go, then that is not where I will be, and the thoughts about it are just cause for suffering. Ha again!

Most of the day was spent trying to notice AE. Soft dog fur, smell of dog, food taste in mouth, hearing voices, smells, shapes, colors...

But this where I am really stuck and need your guiding expertise:
I was looking for 'me'. I looked at my name. That is not me it is words. That is clear.
I saw my bed and thought it's separate from me because it is over there ----> But that is a thought with a label of bed and there is NO BED. Bed doesn't exist. It's only and shape. ok good...
I feel like I live in my head behind my eyes but there is no head, only a label of head, if I'm not looking in the mirror than it's an image of what I imagine this place behind my eyes is (obviously not even close to real). So PURE IMAGINATION
This "picture' is attached to a feeling. It feels like fear but I'm not sure. This feeling is AE - emotion.



Thanks for all your help :)

Cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:56 am

Hey CJ,
Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
This is where I am now. I was thinking I was going to exercise, when I woke up. Then thoughts came of not wanting to....laziness, cold outside, etc... this all AE for thought and it's all commentary or content on the future. Hmmm only right now is real so I don't need to believe these thoughts. HA!!! If I end up at the gym, that's where I will be. If I don't go, then that is not where I will be, and the thoughts about it are just cause for suffering. Ha again!
Haha…nice one!
But this where I am really stuck and need your guiding expertise:
I was looking for 'me'. I looked at my name. That is not me it is words. That is clear.
I saw my bed and thought it's separate from me because it is over there ----> But that is a thought with a label of bed and there is NO BED. Bed doesn't exist. It's only and shape. ok good...
I feel like I live in my head behind my eyes but there is no head, only a label of head, if I'm not looking in the mirror than it's an image of what I imagine this place behind my eyes is (obviously not even close to real). So PURE IMAGINATION
This "picture' is attached to a feeling. It feels like fear but I'm not sure. This feeling is AE - emotion.
Spot on. However, how is it known that the image is attached to a feeling?

So, I think you have a handle on the nature of thought. Let’s move onto the idea of control, choice and decisions.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:59 pm

Hi Kay,

However, how is it known that the image is attached to a feeling?
The image/picture attached to a feeling is simply known. It just happens. There is no control. Memory, thought, fiction, story brings a feeling with it.
Eg. When I remember having my son, I see an image of me and him, I feel what I call love, then if I dig deeper, fear, I think it's a fear something will happen to him. I am attaching to him and to the love. All of this is a story, it;s not real...except I can feel love and then fear in AE in my body in the now.
How is the movement controlled?
Unknown, I really don't know
Does a thought control it?
It totally feels like it but NO a thought can't control a movement because the content of thought not real.
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
No.
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?
No decision is made. It happens in this moment called now. It is AE of sensation.
Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
I can choose to think to turn hand over. Then nothing happens. There is no decision. Hand is moving independent of thought.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
I really cannot.

I am really in a place where I cam experiencing more and more. It gets exhausting and I move back to not noticing. But then I notice again and just watch it all unfolding. I have noticed that there is a lot of anger out there.

xox
Cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:54 pm

Hello CJ,
However, how is it known that the image is attached to a feeling?
The image/picture attached to a feeling is simply known. It just happens. There is no control. Memory, thought, fiction, story brings a feeling with it.
Sound, colour, thought, smell, taste and sensation are known. How is it known that the image is attached to a feeling?

Is there any link between the feeling and the image, meaning that the feeling is ‘coming from’ the image, or only thought and mental constructs link them?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
I can choose to think to turn hand over. Then nothing happens. There is no decision. Hand is moving independent of thought.
How exactly to do you CHOOSE to think a thought? Please describe to me, step by step, how this is done.
I am really in a place where I cam experiencing more and more. It gets exhausting and I move back to not noticing. But then I notice again and just watch it all unfolding. I have noticed that there is a lot of anger out there.
Experiencing more and more of what? Can you write more about this?
Notice anger out there? You mean ‘out in the world’?


You have mentioned fear several times, so let’s have a look at the idea of fear.

1) Look at the label/thought ‘fear’ itself. See the label/word ‘fear’ as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead

Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about ‘fear’, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘fear’ itself fearful?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is fearful?

2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘fear’.

And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the sensation or behind the sensation that can be ‘fearful/anxious’.

3) Look at the image/colour labelled body, whether that image be a ‘mental’ or ‘visual’ image.

Inquire into the colour/image and inquire if the colour itself knows anything about ‘fear’.
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour /image itself that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful/anxious’.

When you have inquired into these and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and ask if they are ‘fear’ itself or know anything about fear, and let them pass on by, and just allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in, while still being aware of the sensation and remember to breathe normally. If the sensation does not dissipate completely, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

Let me know how you go.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:06 am

Hi Kay,
Sound, colour, thought, smell, taste and sensation are known. How is it known that the image is attached to a feeling?
Is there any link between the feeling and the image, meaning that the feeling is ‘coming from’ the image, or only thought and mental constructs link them?
I realized what has happened. My meditation teacher says label whatever comes up, especially emotions. I see how that hasn’t served me well. I have been labeling sensations in my body as emotions. This doesn’t make sense. A sensation is a sensation, it AE it’s not a label called anxiety, fear, shame, joy, etc….

So an image has nothing in it just a story that isn’t real. It’s impossible for a label to be attached to a feeling. It could be one thought pointing to another.
My baby example is then:
Image: memory of the birth
Thought: I love my baby
Sensation in body: thought is labeling it love but it is just a sensation in AE, a mental contrast of what I think love feels like……
How exactly to do you CHOOSE to think a thought? Please describe to me, step by step, how this is done.
There is no choice with thinking. It just happens. The content of the though that just happens is not real, it’s a story, a fiction.

I am really in a place where I cam experiencing more and more. It gets exhausting and I move back to not noticing. But then I notice again and just watch it all unfolding. I have noticed that there is a lot of anger out there.
Experiencing more and more of what? Can you write more about this?
Notice anger out there? You mean ‘out in the world’?
I am living/experiencing AE in the moment more often. I never ever noticed what I am noticing now.
The more we deconstruct the illusion the more objects seem real. I know it doesn’t make sense but here is an example: this red car drove by and I know a car itself is not “real” but the red was real and the shape was real and the moving was real! It was so rich and real!!! So cool!

It seems to me that people appear angry out there in the world but it’s not real because anger is a label. But like the red car, hearing their voices so loud and textured is so very real.

Back to fear….
I have labeled a recurring sensation as fear for quite a while. Now I understand that instead of calling it fear, there is no need to label it. It is a story anyway. The only thing that is real is the AE in the moment and the AE is a sensation!!!! This still needs work but I am starting to get it. Fear and anxiety are scary and they don't need to be if the labels and stories are dropped and it's just the sensation that is in the now. Everything is impermanent ad AE is always changing.

Thanks for your help. The illusion is slowly dissolving.
Cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Nov 26, 2018 5:21 am

Hey CJ,

You do such wonderful looking, which makes guiding so much more pleasurable! 
Sound, colour, thought, smell, taste and sensation are known. How is it known that the image is attached to a feeling?
Is there any link between the feeling and the image, meaning that the feeling is ‘coming from’ the image, or only thought and mental constructs link them?
I realized what has happened. My meditation teacher says label whatever comes up, especially emotions. I see how that hasn’t served me well. I have been labeling sensations in my body as emotions. This doesn’t make sense. A sensation is a sensation, it AE it’s not a label called anxiety, fear, shame, joy, etc….
Yes, exactly :) A sensation is simply a sensation and a thought is simply a thought. Experience/THIS is seemingly appearing as sensation and thought, not the other way round.

Try this exercise, I think you will get a lot out of it :)

Here is an exercise that looks at the idea about body sensation and sight.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one of the hands. Pay attention only to the felt sensations ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.
Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Normally we believe that the sensation is coming from the sight, the ‘object’ seen (hand).

But actually, is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

So an image has nothing in it just a story that isn’t real. It’s impossible for a label to be attached to a feeling. It could be one thought pointing to another.
My baby example is then:
Image: memory of the birth
Thought: I love my baby
Sensation in body: thought is labeling it love but it is just a sensation in AE, a mental contrast of what I think love feels like……
Image: AE of colour. There is no such thing as memory. Is the colour, sound, sensation labelled as ‘birth’ actually happening now? If not, then it is simply a thought story about birth (thoughts about thoughts) and is a fairytale – imagination.

Yes, love is a mental construct. Is ‘love’ an actual sensation or simply a feeling ie an idea?

What is the AE of the ‘body’?
I am living/experiencing AE in the moment more often. I never ever noticed what I am noticing now.
The more we deconstruct the illusion the more objects seem real. I know it doesn’t make sense but here is an example: this red car drove by and I know a car itself is not “real” but the red was real and the shape was real and the moving was real! It was so rich and real!!! So cool!
Lovely!
It seems to me that people appear angry out there in the world but it’s not real because anger is a label. But like the red car, hearing their voices so loud and textured is so very real.
If you look at ‘another person’ with AE, what do you find?
Back to fear….
I have labeled a recurring sensation as fear for quite a while. Now I understand that instead of calling it fear, there is no need to label it. It is a story anyway. The only thing that is real is the AE in the moment and the AE is a sensation!!!! This still needs work but I am starting to get it. Fear and anxiety are scary and they don't need to be if the labels and stories are dropped and it's just the sensation that is in the now. Everything is impermanent ad AE is always changing.


Here is a method you can use at anytime, anywhere and is a good way to see what virtual layers thought has added to actual experience. If thought says: “I am feeling fearful”, replace the thought with “blahblahblah.”

Look at actual experience, with thought only saying “blahblahblah.” Does the thought “I am feeling fearful” contain any actual fear? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:09 pm

Hi Kay,

It's not really a direct answer to your questions. It's what came from thinking about your whole last response to me. It was very helpful.

Another layer has come off and so more has been revealed. I am the awareness. There is nothing that is aware of me. Not even another human being. Another human is simply AE for color, shapes and sound.

It’s thought that makes it seem like the human is aware of me.
Eg: I struggle with wanting people to like me so I my feel worthy. I even struggle with wanting to get your answers right so you will like working with me….
But “who” is this that likes me? There is no “you” to like "me". It’s all a construct of thought that appears in AE.

Everything that comes into AE is coming from me.
Eg: If a human being in a car cuts me off I get mad. I have labeled a sensation as anger; thoughts with fiction come, I blame the human and call him bad names to the air. Basically I am creating a story about AE that has no awareness of me!! How stupid is that?? Alternatively, the human cutting me off can be deconstructed as AE of seeing, colors, shapes, maybe sound, sensation in body, thoughts (containing fiction)……really just awareness of AE and the trick really is to see this and let the fiction contained in the thoughts to pass on by….

Feeling of fear and love and joy.
Replacing the word fear or love or joy with blahblahbalh is a great strategy. It reveals the sensations and they are crystal clear.....no story, no label just pure AE. Pure awareness.


If only we could move through our experience with pure awareness of AE devoid of the stories and labels always.

Thanks again for getting me looking!
xox
Cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:25 pm

Hello CJ,

It is important that you do all the exercises given, as they all have a purpose. It is for you to see how the illusion of a separate self comes together and we leave no place unexplored so that there is no place where you think a ‘separate self’ can be hiding.

Can you please do the sigh-sensation exercise I gave you in my previous post.
It's not really a direct answer to your questions. It's what came from thinking about your whole last response to me. It was very helpful.
Good to hear
Another layer has come off and so more has been revealed. I am the awareness. There is nothing that is aware of me. Not even another human being. Another human is simply AE for color, shapes and sound.
Yes, there is nothing that is aware of you, but you are aware of everything, as you are the appearance of everything and you are self-aware, but you do not become those ‘things’. Awareness and experience are the same thing, they are synonymous.

For a sound to be ‘known’ then there must be a ‘knowing’ of sound! Can a dividing line be found between the ‘knowing’ of the sound and the sound itself? Or is there only ‘knowingknown’?
It’s thought that makes it seem like the human is aware of me.
Eg: I struggle with wanting people to like me so I my feel worthy. I even struggle with wanting to get your answers right so you will like working with me….
But “who” is this that likes me? There is no “you” to like "me". It’s all a construct of thought that appears in AE.
Yes, there is no one that you can get love and approval from, however:-

What is it exactly that “struggles with wanting people to like me”?
What is it exactly that “struggles with wanting to get your answers right”?
What is it exactly that is seeking love and approval?

Everything that comes into AE is coming from me.
Eg: If a human being in a car cuts me off I get mad. I have labeled a sensation as anger; thoughts with fiction come, I blame the human and call him bad names to the air. Basically I am creating a story about AE that has no awareness of me!! How stupid is that?? Alternatively, the human cutting me off can be deconstructed as AE of seeing, colors, shapes, maybe sound, sensation in body, thoughts (containing fiction)……really just awareness of AE and the trick really is to see this and let the fiction contained in the thoughts to pass on by….
Yes, if you really look with what is appearing with AE, you see what is actually appearing. However, there is still an idea here that there is something that is awaring what is being awared (or something knowing what is known) which still points to subject/object split.

We will look at object/subject split a little closer shortly, but I would like you to go back to the sigh-sensation exercise in my last post and answer those questions.

Have you really labelled the sensation as anger, or has the label appeared on its own?
Feeling of fear and love and joy.
Replacing the word fear or love or joy with blahblahbalh is a great strategy. It reveals the sensations and they are crystal clear.....no story, no label just pure AE. Pure awareness.
There is no such thing as “pure awareness” Everything that is…is ‘made of’ experience (awareness) itself. So thoughts and thoughts stories are also ‘made of’ experience. A thought is no different to colour, sound, smell, taste and sensation.

Experience (awareness) is appearing as thought and smell and colour and taste and sensation and sound. Not the other way round. Plus there is no AND. There is simply thoughtsoundcoloursensationsmelltaste = experience = one and the same thing.

A thought is known, yes…as is colour, smell, taste etc. Where does thought (known) end, and the knowing of it begin? Can you find a dividing line between the knowing of thought and the thought itself? Or is there simply knowingknown – ie no dividing line?
If only we could move through our experience with pure awareness of AE devoid of the stories and labels always.
What is it exactly that want to “move through our experience with pure awareness of AE devoid of the stories and labels always”?
What is it exactly that is affected by thoughts and thought stories?

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:27 pm

It is important that you do all the exercises given, as they all have a purpose. It is for you to see how the illusion of a separate self comes together and we leave no place unexplored so that there is no place where you think a ‘separate self’ can be hiding.
Sorry for jumping….
But actually, is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as hand) or only thoughts and mental constructs link them?
There is no link between
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
I can see that from “the hand sensation then look at hand” experiment.
So they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Correct!
Yes, love is a mental construct. Is ‘love’ an actual sensation or simply a feeling ie an idea?
Love is an idea.
What is the AE of the ‘body’?
Color/shape/looking, sound, sensation

If you look at ‘another person’ with AE, what do you find?
Color/shape, sound….Visual and hearing
Look at actual experience, with thought only saying “blahblahblah.” Does the thought “I am feeling fearful” contain any actual fear? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go
This is a good exercise to release from thought.

Can you please do the sigh-sensation exercise I gave you in my previous post.
Sight Sensation right?
Sight and sensation can exist at the same time independent of one another.
I close my eyes I feel sensation in my hand. I open eyes and look at hand and still feel sensation.
For a sound to be ‘known’ then there must be a ‘knowing’ of sound! Can a dividing line be found between the ‘knowing’ of the sound and the sound itself? Or is there only ‘knowingknown’?
There is no dividing line that I can actually see so only “knowingknown”

What is it exactly that “struggles with wanting people to like me”?
What is it exactly that “struggles with wanting to get your answers right”?
What is it exactly that is seeking love and approval?
The thoughts of wanting people to like me, to get my answers right and of seeking love and approval all point to me/Cj.
Me/Cj/I are labels. Labels are not real.

Have you really labelled the sensation as anger, or has the label appeared on its own?
There is sensation in the chest. That is AE.
Anxiety is the label given to sensation. So the label appears after sensation.
A thought is known, yes…as is colour, smell, taste etc. Where does thought (known) end, and the knowing of it begin? Can you find a dividing line between the knowing of thought and the thought itself? Or is there simply knowingknown – ie no dividing line?
No dividing line that I can see.
If only we could move through our experience with pure awareness of AE devoid of the stories and labels always.
What is it exactly that want to “move through our experience with pure awareness of AE devoid of the stories and labels always”?
What is it exactly that is affected by thoughts and thought stories?
“I” desire to move through experience with pure awareness of AE devoid of stories and labels. This desire points to “I/Cj” which is fiction.
Fiction contained in thought is affected by other thoughts and thought stories.

xox
Cj

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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Nov 27, 2018 9:39 pm

Hello CJ,
If you look at ‘another person’ with AE, what do you find?
Color/shape, sound….Visual and hearing
Does the body see and hear?
Where is the dividing line between sound and hearing?
Sit quietly somewhere, take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust, then close the eyes and notice sounds, be they inside or outside of the room.
Then when ready just choose one sound and pay attention to that one sound only.

1) In 'hearing' can anything be found, other than ‘what can be heard’?
2) Can what is doing the hearing be found? Or is there only AE sound?
3) Can an 'I', ‘ear’, ‘body’, ‘person’ be found? Or are these statements thoughts about an 'I', ‘ear’, ‘body’, ‘person’?

Look very carefully. Where does ‘hearing’ end and sound begin? Can a dividing line between ‘hearer’ and sound be found? Or is there just sound?

Can a 'hearer' be found in 'what is being heard' – AE sound?

If that is all, and no INHERENT HEARER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the hearer be anything other than speculation / ideas / beliefs / thoughts etc?

Can you please do the sigh-sensation exercise I gave you in my previous post.
Sight Sensation right?
Sight and sensation can exist at the same time independent of one another.
I close my eyes I feel sensation in my hand. I open eyes and look at hand and still feel sensation.
Here is an interesting clip about sensation-sight correlation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be
For a sound to be ‘known’ then there must be a ‘knowing’ of sound! Can a dividing line be found between the ‘knowing’ of the sound and the sound itself? Or is there only ‘knowingknown’?
There is no dividing line that I can actually see so only “knowingknown”
Yes, so another way of putting this – is there a dividing line between what is aware and what is being awared?
What is it exactly that “struggles with wanting people to like me”?
What is it exactly that “struggles with wanting to get your answers right”?
What is it exactly that is seeking love and approval?
The thoughts of wanting people to like me, to get my answers right and of seeking love and approval all point to me/Cj.
Me/Cj/I are labels. Labels are not real.
Labels are actual experience. It is what the label is pointing to that is to be questioned. Thought either points to AE or it points to thoughts about AE (thoughts about thoughts).
Have you really labelled the sensation as anger, or has the label appeared on its own?
There is sensation in the chest. That is AE.
Anxiety is the label given to sensation. So the label appears after sensation.
The sensation is AE, but is ‘chest’ AE?
Without thought suggesting it, how is it known that the label ‘anxiety’ and the sensation are associated?
It is only a thought that suggests the letters a n x i e t y, is a word and that it means a specific thing. What if the word appearing after the sensation was unoqweiunv instead!? The word ‘anxiety’ has the same value and meaning as unoqweiunv
A thought is known, yes…as is colour, smell, taste etc. Where does thought (known) end, and the knowing of it begin? Can you find a dividing line between the knowing of thought and the thought itself? Or is there simply knowingknown – ie no dividing line?
No dividing line that I can see.
So where does thought end and you begin?
If only we could move through our experience with pure awareness of AE devoid of the stories and labels always.
What is it exactly that want to “move through our experience with pure awareness of AE devoid of the stories and labels always”?
What is it exactly that is affected by thoughts and thought stories?
“I” desire to move through experience with pure awareness of AE devoid of stories and labels. This desire points to “I/Cj” which is fiction.
“I” desire to move through experience with pure awareness of AE devoid of stories and labels is simply an appearing thought. If you look at this thought with AE, what does it actually point to? It simply points to AE of thought.
Fiction contained in thought is affected by other thoughts and thought stories.
How is thought affected by other thoughts exactly? Is thought an aware entity?
Can a thought be seen, felt, smelled, tasted or heard...or is it simply known?
I want you to look and 'find' a thought. You may see the label 'thought' and some mirage-like arisings, but can a thought be actually seen? Can you see that even the label 'thought' is also a mirage-like arising?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 am

Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:55 am

Hi Kay,
Look very carefully. Where does ‘hearing’ end and sound begin? Can a dividing line between ‘hearer’ and sound be found? Or is there just sound?
Hearing and sound is the same thing. There is no hearer.
Can a 'hearer' be found in 'what is being heard' – AE sound?
AE sound is the hearer. They are the same.
If that is all, and no INHERENT HEARER is found . . . would anything that is suggested as the hearer be anything other than speculation / ideas / beliefs / thoughts etc?
You speak the truth.
Yes, so another way of putting this – is there a dividing line between what is aware and what is being awared?
There is no dividing line. There is no awarer. There is only awareness.

So where does thought end and you begin?
There is only thought. I am thought or if I drop the “I” then there is only thought.
How is thought affected by other thoughts exactly
?
AE-Thought cannot be affected by other thoughts. It’s that false “I” that attaches to the content.
Is thought an aware entity?
No. Thought has no awareness.
Can a thought be seen, felt, smelled, tasted or heard...or is it simply known?
No. A thought is only known. Just like that (magic!)…. A thought is known!
I want you to look and 'find' a thought. You may see the label 'thought' and some mirage-like arisings, but can a thought be actually seen?
Ya…I can see overlay of pictures or a movie-like image. A thought cannot be seen.
Can you see that even the label 'thought' is also a mirage-like arising?
Yes. I see that too.

Cj

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forgetmenot
Posts: 5450
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Nov 29, 2018 4:24 am

Hey Cj,
Look very carefully. Where does ‘hearing’ end and sound begin? Can a dividing line between ‘hearer’ and sound be found? Or is there just sound?
Hearing and sound is the same thing. There is no hearer.
Lovely looking :) Yes, there is no dividing line between the knowing and the known. Can there be a knowing with a known, or a known without the knowing AS it?

Yes, so another way of putting this – is there a dividing line between what is aware and what is being awared?
There is no dividing line. There is no awarer. There is only awareness.
Okay…now to have a look if you can find that which is labelled as ‘awareness’? You found that there is no dividing line between sound and hearer, there is just AE of sound…so is there something that is aware of the sound (which points to subject/object split) or is there knowing AS the sound?
So where does thought end and you begin?
There is only thought. I am thought or if I drop the “I” then there is only thought.
Cj is a thought, but what you are is not a thought. Experience is appearing as thought. Thought is not appearing as experience. Can you see the difference?

When you see a painting of a tree, does the paint become the tree, or does the paint remain paint? Isn’t the tree still paint?

How is thought affected by other thoughts exactly?
AE-Thought cannot be affected by other thoughts. It’s that false “I” that attaches to the content.
Hmmm…and where is this “false I’ located exactly? How can something that is illusory attach to anything or know anything?

What is the AE of “It’s that false “I” that attaches to the content”?


Is “I” a place where thoughts appear, or is “I” a thought that arises and subsides by itself?
Is thought an aware entity?
No. Thought has no awareness.
Yep, it is simply an appearance that arises and subsides. You can liken thoughts to clouds that appear in the sky that pass on by. Does the sky become the clouds? Is the sky affected by clouds, or does the sky remain the sky?
Can a thought be seen, felt, smelled, tasted or heard...or is it simply known?
No. A thought is only known. Just like that (magic!)…. A thought is known!
Yes, it is known because experience/THIS is self-aware. Experience knows of appearances because it is experience that is appearing as those appearances. However, experience does not become appearances and only knows itself as itself. Experience is self-aware.
I want you to look and 'find' a thought. You may see the label 'thought' and some mirage-like arisings, but can a thought be actually seen?
Ya…I can see overlay of pictures or a movie-like image. A thought cannot be seen.
Thoughts are words and images.
Is the voice in the head AE of sound or is it AE of thought?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

User avatar
CJR1233
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:54 am

Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:53 pm

Good Morning Kay,
Can there be a knowing with a known, or a known without the knowing AS it?
There is only knowing
Okay…now to have a look if you can find that which is labelled as ‘awareness’?
Cannot find what is labeled as awareness. There is only awareness.
You found that there is no dividing line between sound and hearer, there is just AE of sound…so is there something that is aware of the sound (which points to subject/object split) or is there knowing AS the sound?
There is only knowing AS sound.
Cj is a thought, but what you are is not a thought. Experience is appearing as thought. Thought is not appearing as experience. Can you see the difference?
Oh!!!! Yes!
When you see a painting of a tree, does the paint become the tree, or does the paint remain paint? Isn’t the tree still paint?
The tree is paint.
Hmmm…and where is this “false I’ located exactly?
False “I” is experience appearing as thought!
No location. Just illusion.
How can something that is illusory attach to anything or know anything?
Illusion has no awareness and can’t do anything.
What is the AE of “It’s that false “I” that attaches to the content”?
Thought
Is “I” a place where thoughts appear, or is “I” a thought that arises and subsides by itself?
“I” is a thought that arises and subsides.
Does the sky become the clouds? Is the sky affected by clouds, or does the sky remain the sky?
The sky does not become clouds and clouds do not affect the sky. The sky is just sky.
Is the voice in the head AE of sound or is it AE of thought?
The voice in the head is AE of thought.


Cj


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