The unSelf

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CJR1233
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The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:57 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I intellectually understand that there is no self. It is just an illusion. It is not real. The "I" does not exist. It's a thought, a story, a fiction but it's hard to experience this reality.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am looking for someone to help me "see" this reality that I know but haven't seen for myself yet. I know I need a guide to help point it out to me. I don't think I can do anymore reading on this subject. I need actual help from another being.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect that a guide will really help me to "see" that the self is an illusion. From what I read on the LU site, a guide will ask me questions and I will need to think about them before answering. When I am ready, I will answer in an honest fashion.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am Jewish by birth. I practice mindfulness meditation daily. I have read many book on Buddhism and awakening. I have been on a couple of silent retreats.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:55 am

Hi CJR

My name is Kay, and I am happy to assist you in exploring the idea of the separate self. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

Here are links to information I would like you to read before we begin.

Disclaimer:-

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Terms & Conditions:-

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/terms/


“Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


Please learn to use the quote function. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop

Please confirm that you have read the disclaimer and the other links and we can then begin the exploration.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Dear Kay,

I read all the links in you recommended :)

Cj

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:09 am

Hi Cj

Thank you for reading the links, including the disclaimer and learning how to use the quote function.

Some housekeeping guidelines:-
1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. Please answer what's true for you once you have looked to see what is being pointed at, rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Ideal answers may sound good but will be of no benefit to you in having you realise that there is no separate self. There is no one judging answers given, so please be100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, colour and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration. Be here with an open and curious mind.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done in Word - it will save you time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration ie what life will look and feel like and what you want/hope will change or not change etc in your own words could you please answer the 4 following questions::

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:34 pm

Good Morning Kay,

I am ready to begin.
How will life change?
I don't think life will change. Life will be as it always is.
How will you change?
There is no me to change. "I" will be as "I" always am.
I hope that feeling compassion grows.
What will be different?
Nothing and everything. A shift in perspective will be available.
What is missing?
Nothing is missing. It is all there only the seeing needs to happen.

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:41 pm

Hi CJ,

The purpose of the questions was for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what having the realisation may look like or feel like. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of the exploration and even blind siding the fact that the realisation has happened. However, we will see what expectations appear as we move through this guiding.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
The term ‘actual experience’ (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ and noticing the thought stories about them...so ‘looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now ie image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.

The following exercise points to what I mean.

If you have a ‘real’ apple then you can use that for this exercise.


Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:21 am

Good Evening Kay,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
There is only AE. Color, feel , smell of what I call an apple. The thought apple comes after the AE.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
No. Apple is a construct or a label. It's not AE
However, is an apple actually known?
An apple is known by the thinking that happens after AE.

Cj

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Nov 19, 2018 12:34 am

Hello CJ,
However, is an apple actually known?
An apple is known by the thinking that happens after AE.
An apple is a construct, so how can an apple be known?
What is known is label, colour, sensation, smell, taste, sound that thought suggests is an apple, and thoughts about an apple are known – however, is an apple actually known?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:14 am

Hello Kay,
An apple is a construct, so how can an apple be known?
It cannot be known
What is known is label, colour, sensation, smell, taste, sound that thought suggests is an apple, and thoughts about an apple are known – however, is an apple actually known?
An apple is actually NOT known. I confused it with the thoughts. An apple can only be AE. Pure AE.

Cj

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:08 am

What is known is label, colour, sensation, smell, taste, sound that thought suggests is an apple, and thoughts about an apple are known – however, is an apple actually known?
An apple is actually NOT known. I confused it with the thoughts. An apple can only be AE. Pure AE.
Please go back and redo the apple exercise and try it again as you haven’t quite gotten what AE is. An apples is NOT KNOWN, how can it be known? What is KNOWN (actual experience) IS sound, taste, sensation, colour, smell and thoughts…so how can an apple be known in AE?

Let’s try this a different way.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds, for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part II of this exercise).

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 1:18 pm

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part II of this exercise).
Clock ticking......

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:56 pm

Hi CJ,
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part II of this exercise).
Clock ticking.....
Great! Now can you repeat the exercise and tell me:-

How is it known that the sound heard is a clock ticking?What is it that says that it is a clock?
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘clock ticking’? ‘

Please do the exercise by looking at actual experience (AE), rather than giving an intellectual answer. Actual experience (AE) = what is actually appearing ie sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation, colour, as opposed to what thoughts say are appearing.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:42 am

Hi Kay,

How is it known that the sound heard is a clock ticking?
Sound is happening. Mind/brain recalls that this sound is labeled as clock ticking from memory and previous experience.
What is it that says that it is a clock?
Nothing says that is a clock

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘clock ticking’?
sound, hearing,
tick silence tock silence tick silence tock.......


Please do the exercise by looking at actual experience (AE), rather than giving an intellectual answer. Actual experience (AE) = what is actually appearing ie sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation, colour, as opposed to what thoughts say are appearing.

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forgetmenot
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Re: The unSelf

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Nov 20, 2018 1:03 am

How is it known that the sound heard is a clock ticking?
Sound is happening. Mind/brain recalls that this sound is labeled as clock ticking from memory and previous experience.
What is appearing is simply AE of sound.
Mind/brain recalls that this sound is labeled as clock ticking from memory and previous experience
This is a story. Describe to me in precise detail the ‘mind’ and where it is located exactly. Look around you now and tell me where this 'mind/brain' can be found in your actual/direct experience now? Can it be found appearing in colour, sound, smell, thought, taste or sensation? Or is it simply the AE of thought?

There is no such thing as ‘memory’. This points to time and time does not exist. When you look with AE…can you find memory?
What is it that says that it is a clock?
Nothing says that is a clock
Thought appears and points to the sound and suggests it is a clock. So it is thought that says it is a clock. Thought is actual experience, however, thought in and of itself, does not contain any experience. If it did then you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’ and feel the word ‘hot’.

The label (thought) ‘clock’ is AE of thought and not AE of a clock
The sound labelled ‘clock’ is AE of sound and not AE of a clock
The image labelled ‘clock’ is AE of colour and not AE of a clock
The thoughts about sound being a clock and what a clock is and does, are AE of thought and not AE of a clock

So what is actual/direct experience (what is known) is label + sound + colour the thoughts ABOUT a clock. However is a clock actually known?
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘clock ticking’?
sound, hearing,
tick silence tock silence tick silence tock.......
Yes, the actual/direct experience is simply AE of sound - nothing more.


So let’s look a little deeper. Please take your time and do this exercise carefully. Until you become clear what actual experience is, we can't move on.

You will need the clock for this exercise.

Set aside some time where you won’t be disturbed. Take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and allow your eyes to close gently.

Listen to the sound. “Tick tock tick tock tick tock tick tock”

Focus on the tick tock. Attune to the sound itself. IGNORE any thoughts and mental images about what must be creating the sound.

Try to find the clock.

1. Going just by the tick tock sound, do you find a clock present?
2. Is there any direct/actual experience of a clock in the sound?
3. Does the sound come self-labelled as originating from the clock?
4. Do you find a clock hidden in the sound?
5. Do you find a clock beyond the sound?
6. In your direct/actual experience of the sound, do you find any evidence that the sound is caused by a clock?

Allow your eyes to open.

Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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CJR1233
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Re: The unSelf

Postby CJR1233 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 2:01 am

Hi Kay,

It's nighttime where I live. This is a good time for me to work on this.
This is a story. Describe to me in precise detail the ‘mind’ and where it is located exactly. Look around you now and tell me where this 'mind/brain' can be found in your actual/direct experience now? Can it be found appearing in colour, sound, smell, thought, taste or sensation? Or is it simply the AE of thought?
The mind is located inside the head. I cannot find the “mind/brain” in actual or direct experience. There is no mind in colour, sound, smell, thought, taste or sensation.

This “mind/brain” is AE of thought.

So what is actual/direct experience (what is known) is label + sound + colour the thoughts ABOUT a clock. However is a clock actually known?
The clock is not known. It does not exist.
Thought is an AE. The thought is known about the clock and the clock is not known.
Were you able to establish that in your direct/actual experience of the tick tock sound, that there was a clock?
I could not find a clock. There was just sound (tic...). Sound is actual experience.


Cj


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