Love

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Barb
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Re: Love

Postby Barb » Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:01 pm

So nice to read this from you :)
Well,....
A thought is harmless but engaging in the thought creates thinking and thinking creates emotions and feelings.


Is this really true?
Is there an entity which can be engaged in thoughts? Or is there just thinking?
Can thought really create emotions? Explore throughout the day the bodily sensations which comes with various appearances of emotions (thought in disguise:))
Do they always appear after thought? Is there sometimes only a bodiliy sensation and thought interprets it as feeling or emotion? If you separate emotion from thought, what remains?

(While typing this I realise how aburd this sounds. There is no (false) self, there's no-one here. Just thoughts one after another....)
:))
What have I been doing and chasing all these years..
Was there a choice? Could ever be anything different than it is? Could it have ever been different?

:)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Gwendy
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Re: Love

Postby Gwendy » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:05 pm

Is this really true?
I don't know.
Is there an entity which can be engaged in thoughts? Or is there just thinking?
No there is no entity. Just thinking!
Can thought really create emotions?
No
Explore throughout the day the bodily sensations which comes with various appearances of emotions (thought in disguise:))
Do they always appear after thought?
No they don't
Is there sometimes only a bodiliy sensation and thought interprets it as feeling or emotion?
Yes!
If you separate emotion from thought, what remains?
The bodily sensation, energy
Was there a choice?
No
Could ever be anything different than it is? Could it have ever been different?
No!

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Barb
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Re: Love

Postby Barb » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:31 pm

I can't find me. Is it necessary? ;-)
Will you ever find?


Lets have a gentle and friendly look at the bodyexperience:


Sit or lie down for about 15 minutes with eyes closed.
Pay attention only to the pure sensations without relying on thoughts or mental images.

Can you tell how big the body is?
Does the body have a weight or circumference?

Does your body have a shape or form in the current experience?
Is there a border between the body and the clothes?
Is there a border between the body and the surface?

Do you know how many toes are there?
Does the body have a name?

Is there an inside or outside? If there is an inside - inside of what?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word / term 'body' actually refer to?
Is there something missing when the body is experienced in this way?


Have fun while exploring and feeling the body :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Gwendy
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Re: Love

Postby Gwendy » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:37 pm

I will answer these questions on thursday.

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Barb
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Re: Love

Postby Barb » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:16 pm

Fine, thanks for the message :)

Have a nice day!
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Gwendy
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Re: Love

Postby Gwendy » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:50 am

Will you ever find?
No...
Can you tell how big the body is?
No
Does the body have a weight or circumference?
No
Does your body have a shape or form in the current experience?
No
Is there a border between the body and the clothes?
No
Is there a border between the body and the surface?
No

Do you know how many toes are there?
No idea
Does the body have a name?
No
Is there an inside or outside? If there is an inside - inside of what?
There's no inside
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
There's no outside
What does the word / term 'body' actually refer to?
In the experience the word "body" refers to sensations and sounds
Is there something missing when the body is experienced in this way?
absolutely not :-)

thank you!

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Barb
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Re: Love

Postby Barb » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:19 pm

Wonderful :)

As I mentioned earlier, for me, what you write sounds pretty clear. Have you any questions? Do you want to investigate some special issues? What do you mean: Have you clearly seen, that there is no „I“, that there is not separate entity?

Let's have a little look on decicions

Lift your right or left arm (or leave it down). While lifting or not lifting
a decision happens, at least something happens (or not).

Can you find the exact moment of decision and find the concrete essence which seems to make a decision? Is it really possible to find the moment of decision as well as the apparent "decider"? Or does the idea "I
decided to lift (or not) the right or left arm” emerge only after the actual event?


I'm curious what you find :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Gwendy
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Re: Love

Postby Gwendy » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:49 am

I have seen that there is no seperate entity. No I running the show BUT in difficult or stressfull situations I seem to have forgotten.(especially concerning children, husband and pets) It's so easy to see during meditation or when I slow down and take the time to answer your questions.
Can you find the exact moment of decision and find the concrete essence which seems to make a decision? Is it really possible to find the moment of decision as well as the apparent "decider"? Or does the idea "I
decided to lift (or not) the right or left arm” emerge only after the actual event?
I can't find the exact moment of decision and the essence which seems to make a decision.
The thought emerges after the event.

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Barb
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Re: Love

Postby Barb » Fri Nov 23, 2018 12:48 pm

I have seen that there is no seperate entity. No I running the show BUT in difficult or stressfull situations I seem to have forgotten.(especially concerning children, husband and pets) It's so easy to see during meditation or when I slow down and take the time to answer your questions.
How does this „have forgotten“ look like in stressfull situations? And what do you expect that the clear knowing that there is no separate entity has to look like?
How does the experience of „there is no „I“ look like in meditation?
There is the seeing of stress and there is seeing of meditation, is there a difference in seeing? (Not in the state but in the raw seeing)
Is it possible to experience the absence of something that does not exist?

Put a pen in front of you on a table. Look at it... there is direct seeing of a pen, isn't it?
Then give the pen aside, on a place where you cannot see it. Then look again at the table where the pen was before.
Is there an experience of the absence of a pen?

:)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Gwendy
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Re: Love

Postby Gwendy » Sat Nov 24, 2018 5:42 pm

How does this „have forgotten“ look like in stressfull situations?
Belief and engaging in thoughts, this creates feelings and emotions and there’s identification with Gwen the person that feels, thinks, wants, reacts etc….
And what do you expect that the clear knowing that there is no separate entity has to look like?
You asked me this question several times.
I don’t know.
Maybe being “this”or resting as “this” all the time without identifying with the person anymore
How does the experience of „there is no „I“ look like in meditation?
Peaceful, relaxed, clear, free, raw, presence,
Just experiencing ...
There is the seeing of stress and there is seeing of meditation, is there a difference in seeing? (Not in the state but in the raw seeing)
No, there’s no difference in seeing
Is it possible to experience the absence of something that does not exist?
Good question!
No
Put a pen in front of you on a table. Look at it... there is direct seeing of a pen, isn't it?
Then give the pen aside, on a place where you cannot see it. Then look again at the table where the pen was before.
Is there an experience of the absence of a pen?
No, there’s just the table.

PS: Love your questions!

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Barb
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Re: Love

Postby Barb » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:48 am

Belief and engaging in thoughts, this creates feelings and emotions and there’s identification with Gwen the person that feels, thinks, wants, reacts etc….
So what? Can you find an „I“ in feelings, emotions and identification with Gwen? Or is there just the appearance of feelings, emotions and identification with Gwen? Is there someone in control of the appearances? Does someone control the wheather? There is sun and rain, and rain and sun and snow, and wind and storm and calm.. If the sun would always shine, there would be only desert everywhere :)
And what do you expect that the clear knowing that there is no separate entity has to look like?
You asked me this question several times.
Maybe I'll ask that a few more times ;)

It seems that is the expectation that the seeing of no inherent „I“ means, that there will allways be peace and never stress and identification.. That's not the case. Seeing that there is no entitiy which runs the show means simply that and has nothing to do with any state.. Nothing has to change..
You can compare it with a mirage: When you see a mirage and you want to go there for water, then you realize, that it's only an illusion. But the seeing of it remains. Maybe you forget and go again for water to it (in our case is this the repeatedly looking for an „I“, for separation in all circumstandes), but as soon as you have often enough looked, you will never go again. Neverteless the seeing of the mirage is there, but the knowing that it is an illusion is constant....
Maybe being “this”or resting as “this” all the time without identifying with the person anymore
What is „this“? What is „this“ for you? What is „this“ in direct experience? Have you ever experience the „this“ you are speaking from? Or is it an inception from several books and teachers?
And please look very, very deep and exactly for the one who wants to rest in „this“? Where is it? Can you find something which wants to rest in „this“?
Peaceful, relaxed, clear, free, raw, presence, 
Like mentioned above: Looks like expectation! Peace, relaxation, clearness presence..... this are all states, have nothing to do with seeing that there is no „I“...
Just experiencing …
What is the opposite from „just experiencing“? Is it possible to not experience?
There is the seeing of stress and there is seeing of meditation, is there a difference in seeing? (Not in the state but in the raw seeing)
No, there’s no difference in seeing
Maybe this seeing is „this“?

Please observe as often as you can what you are doing and break everything down to direct experience and call it seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensing, thinking.

That could look like this:

To see a cup = color / shape = SEEING
Smell the coffee = SMELLING
Feel the warmth of the cup = SENSING
The clinking of the spoon in the cup while stirring = HEARING
Imagine taking a sip right now = THINKING

You can also use this in routine activities, if not your full concentration is required.

There are two types of thoughts:
1- The thought points to something that is perceptible via the senses at this moment - the thought “is labeling”.
2- The thought points to another thought, that is thought-content and the story being told.

Tell me how that went, what you noticed and give some examples.

PS: Love your questions!
It's a great pleasure to be with you :)
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Gwendy
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Re: Love

Postby Gwendy » Sun Nov 25, 2018 6:22 pm

If it's ok with you I'm gonna take till wednesday for the observations and to answer your questions.
I'm doing this already with hearing, seeing and thinking. I'm gonna ad the smelling and sensing

THANKS <3

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Barb
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Re: Love

Postby Barb » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:17 pm

Great, take all the time you need <3

_()_
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom

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Gwendy
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Re: Love

Postby Gwendy » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:30 pm

So what? Can you find an „I“ in feelings, emotions and identification with Gwen?
No

Or is there just the appearance of feelings, emotions and identification with Gwen?
Yes!
Is there someone in control of the appearances?
No, they just appear

Does someone control the wheather?
No
There is sun and rain, and rain and sun and snow, and wind and storm and calm.. If the sun would always shine, there would be only desert everywhere :)
That’s true

Maybe I'll ask that a few more times ;)
Ok!
It seems that is the expectation that the seeing of no inherent „I“ means, that there will allways be peace and never stress and identification.. That's not the case. Seeing that there is no entitiy which runs the show means simply that and has nothing to do with any state.. Nothing has to change..
You can compare it with a mirage: When you see a mirage and you want to go there for water, then you realize, that it's only an illusion. But the seeing of it remains. Maybe you forget and go again for water to it (in our case is this the repeatedly looking for an „I“, for separation in all circumstandes), but as soon as you have often enough looked, you will never go again. Neverteless the seeing of the mirage is there, but the knowing that it is an illusion is constant....
Thank you for the explanation.

What is „this“?
I don’t know what ‘it’ is. It’s this silent presence
What is „this“ for you?
This always present silence?
What is „this“ in direct experience?
It’s always here. Silent, non judgemental, unconditional, timeless, at peace, perfectly ok, not at war with anything, all accepting here-ness

Have you ever experience the „this“ you are speaking from?
It’s not an experience, NO
If it was an experience it would have a beginning and an end and it would change
This is unchangeable
Or is it an inception from several books and teachers?
No
And please look very, very deep and exactly for the one who wants to rest in „this“?
It’s just a thought appearing in this.
Where is it?
It’s a thought and together with the thought a feeling of longing. (which is again a thought and bodily sensations)
Can you find something which wants to rest in „this“?
No! And thank you for your patience. I realise that this I that wants to rest is nothing more than arrogance ☹
Like mentioned above: Looks like expectation! Peace, relaxation, clearness presence..... this are all states, have nothing to do with seeing that there is no „I“...
Yes!
What is the opposite from „just experiencing“? Is it possible to not experience?
No
Maybe this seeing is „this“?
Yes exactly! This unconditional, timeless, at peace, perfectly ok, not at war with anything, all accepting seeing.(experiencing)
Please observe as often as you can what you are doing and break everything down to direct experience and call it seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensing, thinking.

That could look like this:

To see a cup = color / shape = SEEING
Smell the coffee = SMELLING
Feel the warmth of the cup = SENSING
The clinking of the spoon in the cup while stirring = HEARING
Imagine taking a sip right now = THINKING

You can also use this in routine activities, if not your full concentration is required.

There are two types of thoughts:
1- The thought points to something that is perceptible via the senses at this moment - the thought “is labeling”.
2- The thought points to another thought, that is thought-content and the story being told.

Tell me how that went, what you noticed and give some examples.
The seeing and hearing are easy.
They’ve become a habit.
The thinking is easier when I slow down or in meditation.

During observation the thoughts come in not only to label the experiencing but also to define with good, bad, wrong, right, …..

The sensing is the most difficult one.
Not feelings and emotions but the sensing of two arms hugging this body, a kiss, the cold through my jacket, the warmth of the shower, making love,….

Also seeing my face in the mirror every moring while brushing my teeth is confusing

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Barb
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Re: Love

Postby Barb » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:32 pm

What is „this“?
I don’t know what ‘it’ is. It’s this silent presence
How is „this“ in direct experience? Can you see-hear-feel-smell-taste „this“?
What is „this“ for you?
This always present silence?
Is this more than a story? Or an expectation?
What is „this“ in direct experience?
It’s always here. Silent, non judgemental, unconditional, timeless, at peace, perfectly ok, not at war with anything, all accepting here-ness
This is not DIRECT EXPERIENCE! That are only thoughts..states..stories..expectations .. Can you see this?
Have you ever experience the „this“ you are speaking from?
It’s not an experience, NO
If it was an experience it would have a beginning and an end and it would change
This is unchangeable
Are this more than thoughts? If you never has experienced „this“, and if there is only experience, what are you talking about?
Or is it an inception from several books and teachers?
No
Are you sure? If you have never heard about it would there be any idea how this could be?
It’s a thought and together with the thought a feeling of longing. (which is again a thought and bodily sensations)
If the next time the feeling of longing shows up, then sit with it, allow it, feel it and then look behind the longing. What is there? Can you find something there?
I realise that this I that wants to rest is nothing more than arrogance ☹
Can you find arrogance in direct experience? Or is it just only a thought?
Maybe this seeing is „this“?
Yes exactly! This unconditional, timeless, at peace, perfectly ok, not at war with anything, all accepting seeing.(experiencing)
Why does „seeing“ have to have any properties? Why must „this“ have to have any properties? Does „this“ or „seeing“ or „experience“ have to have any preferences? Look closely if „this“ could be the same as experience!

It sounds a little bit as if there is an attachement and an expectation for everlasting peace and rest.. Thats not possible! There is no happyeveraftergate! No angel choirs and no bells...
If you are looking for comfort and comfortable feelings, than i have to dissapoint you... sorry ;)

What we are doing here is following:

We try to find out:

1. that thoughts (and emotions, which are thoughts in disguise) have nothing to do with reality (direct experience)
2. that „I“ is only a thought 

The clear recognition that the "I" is only an illusion is only the beginning, not the end from a never ending unfolding...

During observation the thoughts come in not only to label the experiencing but also to define with good, bad, wrong, right
Yes, the mind is a label maschine, everything that comes in mind gets immediately a label :)

Sit for a couple of minutes with your eyes closed and notice what the mind does. Don’t pay much attention to content, but observe how the labeling mechanism works. A sound is heard and thoughts describe what happened. A tingling sensation comes and thoughts label it. Just pay attention to how something is experienced and then labeled immediately afterward. See how everything runs on automatic.
The sensing is the most difficult one.
Not feelings and emotions but the sensing of two arms hugging this body, a kiss, the cold through my jacket, the warmth of the shower, making love,…
.
It's only a matter of practice :)
Also seeing my face in the mirror every moring while brushing my teeth is confusing
Look in a mirror.
First close your eyes and feel the sensations called the "face".
Then open your eyes and look in the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there a connection between the perceived sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and / or mental images) that suggest that?


That has become a bit much now. If it is too much at once, then please split it up :))
Looking —> Seeing....Seeing —> Freedom


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