Pointers, pointers, at the wall, who is the most direct of them all?

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pointers, pointers, at the wall, who is the most direct of them all?

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:40 am

Hi Michael,

Just a little more clarification needed.

Can you give a little bit more on question 5, please?

Can you please give examples from your daily life of how you see that there is no one deciding, intending, choosing, controlling, ie no free will?

And can you please answer the question of what you are responsible for?

These are multi-part questions and it's easy to miss a piece. With those two things, I believe we will be complete.

Thank you!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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NoMeHere
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Re: Pointers, pointers, at the wall, who is the most direct of them all?

Postby NoMeHere » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:59 pm

Can you please give examples from your daily life of how you see that there is no one deciding, intending, choosing, controlling, ie no free will?
That's funny, right before I opened this email, I was paying close attention to who is doing things, as I do several times during the day. The answer is always the same: everything just happens. I was walking through the office, sitting down on the chair, entering the password for the computer, and so on, all without any doer. It just happens all by itself.

The more interesting question at this point is who observes all this? Well, nobody! "Pay attention to who does things" is just another thought. All it does is to stop thought for a little while, and with no thought, there is no sense of observation either.

It is quite confusing sometimes, but it is only confusing to thought and the self-model and agency-model created by thought. When thinking stops, there is clarity: No self, no doer, everything just happens.
And can you please answer the question of what you are responsible for?
Nothing at all, since there is no me.

At this point, I was tempted to write a long paragraph about how a sense of responsibility is still helpful and even necessary to navigate life, even if it is known that it is not "real", but I think that's not relevant in this context.

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Re: Pointers, pointers, at the wall, who is the most direct of them all?

Postby NoMeHere » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:08 pm

All it does is to stop thought for a little while, and with no thought, there is no sense of observation either.
I have to correct myself here: There is a sense of observation, but no sense of an observer. And even this isn't really correct. There is just observation, no "sense" for it. Or just what happens.

Language is really inadequate to express what's really going on...

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pointers, pointers, at the wall, who is the most direct of them all?

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:19 pm

Hi Michael,

Yes, language makes no sense once you can see what's really going on. I have to ask you about this...
I was tempted to write a long paragraph about how a sense of responsibility is still helpful and even necessary to navigate life, even if it is known that it is not "real", but I think that's not relevant in this conte
Are you sure?

Who is even tempted? Who is there to do any navigating?


Let me know. Nearly done!

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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NoMeHere
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Re: Pointers, pointers, at the wall, who is the most direct of them all?

Postby NoMeHere » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:23 pm

It's always the extra stuff that I write that gets me into "trouble" :)

No, I'm definitely not sure. You are right, there is no navigator at all. And there is nobody who is tempted. The thoughts that are put into words and written down just happen.

Responsibility was something I always felt very strongly, all my life, so the last question was a huge trigger for me. It brought up some subtle guilt, fear, and thoughts about whether I can really let go of that. But it's just that, a thought. There is nobody to let go of anything, and there was nobody who was responsible in the past, just thoughts about responsibility.

And contrary to what I said first in the paragraph above, there is nobody who feels strongly about it right now either. It's just more thoughts.

Thinking about this sometimes feels like my head is going to explode. Thought after thought, sometimes doubting each other, sometimes reinforcing each other. Then there is clarity again, seeing that these are all thoughts, and they just happen, and there is no thinker anyways. And then there is often just thoughtless clarity. Over time, the clarity increases, and the thoughts of doubt become fewer.

The I-thought is a very sneaky thing. It's biggest enemy is the who-thought.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pointers, pointers, at the wall, who is the most direct of them all?

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:58 pm

Thank you, Michael, yes, again - that's why we have Aftercare groups & discussion groups where these things can be sorted out further.

Watch for a PM (or another question, but I think this is good.)

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pointers, pointers, at the wall, who is the most direct of them all?

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:04 am

Hi Michael,

I see that your name has been turned to Blue and I got a notice that you've been invited to the groups.

Congratulations! Hope to see you in other forums.

You will see me on Facebook as Stacy Ann Clark, if you wish. If not, that's fine too.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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NoMeHere
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Re: Pointers, pointers, at the wall, who is the most direct of them all?

Postby NoMeHere » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:48 am

Thanks again for all your help Stacy.

Much love,
Michael

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Anastacia42
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Re: Pointers, pointers, at the wall, who is the most direct of them all?

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:55 am

You are welcome. My pleasure!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris


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