Seeking the end of "me"

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endofme
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby endofme » Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:31 pm

What would you say?
I have been toying with the idea that there is only one thought (if any at all), which seems to be somehow mirrored in upon itself infinite times and ways. Sorry this is only speculation though and I have no basis for this idea.
Is anything else but exactly this truth experienced all the time?
I think as you say, its all truth. So funny that part of this illusionary journey is to "destroy" (see through) every un-truth, only to find out its all truth.
Can an actual storage of past thoughts be found in the actual experience?
No, there is no direct experience of memory. I can not directly access memory, even though I pretend to when I "search my memory". When in fact memories arise, like thoughts. (because it is thoughts).
Is there a difference in these thoughts?
The difference is only content, and content is only another thought. The only difference besides the content is the feelings that these "different" thoughts may invoke. This makes them feel much different, but in fact the feeling is just part of content.

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Jadzia
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby Jadzia » Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:13 pm

I have been toying with the idea that there is only one thought (if any at all), which seems to be somehow mirrored in upon itself infinite times and ways. Sorry this is only speculation though and I have no basis for this idea.
It can’t really be known. This is thoughts playing around, which can be fun.
I think as you say, its all truth. So funny that part of this illusionary journey is to "destroy" (see through) every un-truth, only to find out its all truth.
All is This, nothing is separate from what is – so all is true and even might appear as not true at the same time.
The difference is only content, and content is only another thought. The only difference besides the content is the feelings that these "different" thoughts may invoke. This makes them feel much different, but in fact the feeling is just part of content.
Thought seems to separate, it can’t really but it can tell a story.
When the it is only content of thought - is there any difference between you and me, you and a friend of yours, you and a dog?


Love,
Jadzia

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endofme
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby endofme » Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:07 am

When the it is only content of thought - is there any difference between you and me, you and a friend of yours, you and a dog?
No, but just for fun, we can pretend there is. (and yes, I see there's no 'we' and nothing that can do anything, like pretend)

Another analogy to oneness (like the drop of water in a bucket cannot move) , I have been toying with--- it is like a large jello mold (and then imagine that the jello mold is all there is) In a jello mold, you can find many cubes of different colored objects(fruit, candies, etc) , but once the mold is made, it's all jello. The bits of fruits can't move around inside the jello mold, not because they are stuck, but because they literally ARE the mold. In a similar sense, we think we move around in empty space called air, but the air itself is also part of the mold. There is no room to move around. We are in fact still, while thoughts say that there is movement.

Sorry for the off-topic, but no better way to find assumptions than to ramble a bit and have you point them out to me!

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Jadzia
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby Jadzia » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:50 am

No, but just for fun, we can pretend there is. (and yes, I see there's no 'we' and nothing that can do anything, like pretend)
Yes, exactly. Why not have fun. Why not enjoy what seems to be diversity, this richness of Life!
One can still know it is an illusion – a precious one, right?

Analogies always limp a bit, don’t they? Yet they can be helpful.
All appears, all is experience, nothing separate, all one. Like the wave and the ocean are one. Whatever…..

Would you like to have a walk this weekend? Somewhere into nature, like a park or whatever you have around?
Here is a wonderful exercise to go out and experience what we write about.

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

Love,
Jadzia

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endofme
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby endofme » Sat Dec 01, 2018 4:49 am

Hi,
I can go for a walk on Sunday or Monday and will report back.

Thanks,
Justin

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Jadzia
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby Jadzia » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:12 am

Wonderful.

Looking forward to what you'll find.

Love,
Jadzia

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endofme
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby endofme » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:45 pm


Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

Love,
Jadzia
Ok, I could not go to the park, so I did it in my meditation garden that I finished this year...

I see that the scenery around me looks so alive. From the squirrels jumping on the fences, the leaves of trees blowing in the wind. The ripples of water in the birdbath in front of me, the occasional chime of the wind chime. I feel wind brushing across my face. I hear acorns falling on the roof and rolling down to the ground. I hear cars driving by in the distance all with different sounds and beeps. No birds are singing, but I can imagine them tweeting and floating around as I have heard many times before. And I'm seeing it as a beautiful Symphony. Except this one is more amazing than anything Beethoven could write. Beethoven invoked emotions through audio only in his symphonies. This Symphony includes all senses. The absolute perfect Symphony one can experience. But instead I ignore it, and long for manmade entertainment to
bide the time. (luckily this other entertainment is part of the Symphony, just of a different..... texture...)

When I close my eyes and listen inwards, I also experience an inner symphony of thoughts, visions, sensations, the rumblings of the body, some beautiful hypnogogic imagery.... This too is ever changing and flowing.  Everything seems to come and go, making way for what's next to come. And yet there is only this ever present moment, and nothing ever comes or goes. To know what goes, is to engage in thought. To know what comes of to engage in thought. There can only be this now, and yet this now ALWAYS seems to be different, through thoughts about how it WAS.

With my eyes closed, I can still feel a distinct barrier from this symphony and 'that' symphony, as that symphony seeming to be occurring past this dark void I see that I have always claimed to be the backs of my eyelids. This is from a lifetime of conditioning and false beliefs. I know through my experience in lucid dreaming and from beliefs (oops) I have formed of nonduality, but I do long to actually experience expanding this symphony into the one 'out there'. I hope, (but no expectations) that this will arise from my self inquiry practices.

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Jadzia
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby Jadzia » Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:10 pm

A meditation garden sounds wonderful.
(luckily this other entertainment is part of the Symphony, just of a different..... texture...
Is the wave part of the ocean or just ocean?
Are there different symphonies or just one?
With my eyes closed, I can still feel a distinct barrier from this symphony and 'that' symphony, as that symphony seeming to be occurring past this dark void I see that I have always claimed to be the backs of my eyelids. This is from a lifetime of conditioning and false beliefs. I know through my experience in lucid dreaming and from beliefs (oops) I have formed of nonduality, but I do long to actually experience expanding this symphony into the one 'out there'. I hope, (but no expectations) that this will arise from my self inquiry practices.
Look out for expectations, there might be some. Are there? And if which ones?

Look at these questions again and answer them.
Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?

Love,
Jadzia

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endofme
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby endofme » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:44 am

Is the wave part of the ocean or just ocean?
Are there different symphonies or just one?
The wave is ocean. It is all one symphony. There seems to be different parts, millions and trillions of them all happening all together, and apart. But this is how thought interprets this symphony. When instead, it appears as one, perfect clockwork symphony. And right now there are thoughts that if there were a me, it would be proud to have a part in this.

The wave is ocean. There is no separation. Wave is a label that is given to describe the form it takes, which invokes thoughts of it looking different than the ocean. Even though it is so easy to see that there is no separation between wave and ocean, we sometimes forget this because of the power of labeling (giving names). There is some kind of imaginary veil put over this fact that wave=ocean, and we tend to separate it into its own separate entity. When it is simply a movement of the ocean, playing its part perfectly in this beautiful symphony.
Look out for expectations, there might be some. Are there? And if which ones?
There are definitely expectations, even though I pretended in that sentence that I hold none. I meant it more as a hopeful wish that in future inquiries, I do it without the expectation of feeling as one, as I have failed to do with no expectations previously. Even this hopeful wish that I will no longer hold expectations is an expectation in itself.

And yes, there is expectation of hoping to feel the oneness, because "I" just want to feel it so bad. It has just occurred to me that if there is only oneness, there's no such thing as feeling it, because that would imply that anything else can be felt. So there are expectations of feeling oneness as feeling good or something. I don't know what the hell it feels like, if anything, and that's probably why I'm missing it. Of course there is also no I, only thoughts, and thoughts can't do anything, like feel. There can only be thoughts of feeling oneness.
Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
I will need to sit with this a few times or so and really look for this boundary. Honestly that sounds like a great self inquiry method! I am going through a very busy, and hectic time right now with my business and at home, so I have to really have some time to sit and search for this boundary, and time is extra time fleeting at the moment. I can't wait to try this though. My answer for now is still that it seems that this feeling of me does not go past the eyelids.
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
If anything, there is only an inside. And even that's just a label of something I can't understand. Everything that appears to be "outside", is a thought of reality to this "me". Each of these thoughts are also "me-thoughts", because they are thoughts about how these outside things apply to me, the inside. But without an outside, there is no inside. So the answer is that there is just Life.
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
No it is all one movement, one symphony. I see this, yet its easily forgotten (or something).
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
No, there can not be. And even if there were, it would still be a part of the symphony. Therefore, the symphony can not be watched, the symphony just… IS!
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Oops I already answered this one… how cool is that?
Is there anything which is not just happening?
Considering if there is anything happening at all, that's all it is doing- just happening. Everything. Together. Perfectly.

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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby Jadzia » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:30 am

What a beautiful read!
It has just occurred to me that if there is only oneness, there's no such thing as feeling it, because that would imply that anything else can be felt. So there are expectations of feeling oneness as feeling good or something. I don't know what the hell it feels like, if anything, and that's probably why I'm missing it.
Yes, Oneness is. Just Being.

Maybe you didn’t miss anything.
Breathe in, breathe out gently – you are always It.
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
No, there can not be. And even if there were, it would still be a part of the symphony. Therefore, the symphony can not be watched, the symphony just… IS!
Beautiful.
Yes and for something to be watched there would be the need of an outside of it, or?
But is there an inside or an outside?
My answer for now is still that it seems that this feeling of me does not go past the eyelids.
Migth be the me, or? The me itself is separation, me and others. But are there others? Is there anything outside of what is?
Ah, and are there eyelids? Is there a body?

Try this:
Lie on your back and relax. Have a look at the ceiling.
There is thought to be a distance between that what is thought to be known as ‘body’ and that what is labelled ‘ceiling’.

Close your eyes. Now focus on the space between body and ceiling.
Take your time, breathe in and out and simply look. Keep the eyes shut.
What do you notice?
Is there a body? Is there a ceiling? Is there a distance?
Is there an inside or outside of anything?
Considering if there is anything happening at all, that's all it is doing- just happening. Everything. Together. Perfectly.
No doing, simply being. So simple. So perfect and beautiful.

Love,
Jadzia

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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby endofme » Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:55 am

Hi,
I'm not sure if you want me to answer the questions posted above the exercise you proposed, or if they were rhetorical. I will try the exercise tonight and tomorrow and hopefully have a report by tomorrow.

Just want to say I am so grateful for this forum and for you as well (whatever that means, haha). Do you know if it is OK to repost some of these exchanges on another forum I frequent? I keep a seeker's journal on that site and it would help me to bookmark all of these exchanges.

Thank you,
(....)

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Jadzia
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby Jadzia » Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:06 am

Answers would be nice.

Sorry, I can’t tell you if it is ok to repost from this forum – I will check it out.

What is seeking? Is there a seeker or someone who can find something?

Love,
Jadzia

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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby endofme » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:59 pm

Hi -
But is there an inside or an outside?
In the context of oneness, no, there can not be an inside or outside. All is indivisible. And yet in the context of this illusion of a "me" that is experiencing life inside a body, it is still easy to say that there is an inside this body, and outside this body. It does not mean that there is any truth to this, and is an illusion that is felt because of thoughts. It’s a misconception that has been thrust upon 'me' since learning to walk and talk. It is such a hard illusion to see through, because for example, it seems that there are thoughts that are interpreted inside this body as opposed to the thoughts that interpret the scenery around this body. But they are all thoughts, and to say that one set of thoughts happens inside, and one set of thoughts happens outside, would be false. (now to clarify, there is no such thing as a context of oneness vs a context of the illusion of "me". This would imply some kind of separation. but putting it this way is the only way I can work out what I'm trying to convey.)
But are there others?
This one is still hard to answer because the illusion runs just as deep as the concept or illusion of me. Because there can't be a concept of me without the concept of others. As all is one, of course there is no separation or distinction that can be labeled "me" or "others". And yet there are thoughts of this story of living every day and interacting with these other so called human bodies that seem to go about their own lives and they seem to be 'out there', as opposed to in here, "observing" (though that's just more thoughts) the thoughts that seem to only appear in 'this' human's head. It doesn't help that these "others" react in ways that are many times surprising or antagonistic towards what is considered "me". These are just more stories but they form a strong illusion of separation.
Is there anything outside of what is? 
No, there is no outside, as there is no inside. Is….. Just….. Is.
Ah, and are there eyelids? Is there a body?
Ultimately, I can see that no, there are neither of these things as this would imply separation. Yet they seem to appear in awareness. But awareness itself is an illusion, as this would imply separation.
What is seeking? Is there a seeker or someone who can find something?
There is no seeking, as there is no one who can seek. I have been using this term long before the realization (which is also an illusion) of there being no me, or no thinker. It's just easier to say seeker's journal, to give context to what kind of journal this is and what kind of forum it is on. It is not actually called a seeker's journal on that forum, just a label that I have used.

As for the exercise, I will sit with it tonight, and hopefully be able to answer your further questions either tonight or tomorrow.

thank you
Justin (or whatever)

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Jadzia
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby Jadzia » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:28 am

One could say that the illusion is built very well indeed, no wonder it is so convincing and this together with it being shared by almost everyone.
There is no inside no outside, as you wrote “Is….. Just….. Is.“
The me/others is in the same line as past/future – simply a construct/story.
But awareness itself is an illusion, as this would imply separation.
Awareness is a word we can use to describe what is, but yes, it is a construct, too, aka words, aka thoughts. It is ok.
There is no seeking, as there is no one who can seek. I have been using this term long before the realization (which is also an illusion) of there being no me, or no thinker. It's just easier to say seeker's journal, to give context to what kind of journal this is and what kind of forum it is on. It is not actually called a seeker's journal on that forum, just a label that I have used.
Yip.
And
Please feel free to quote from this thread.

What about Gating? Can someone gate? Is there a gate?

The exercise is a small one, just lay down and enjoy it.

Love,
Jadzia

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endofme
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Re: Seeking the end of "me"

Postby endofme » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:40 am

What do you notice?
What I am noticing is that with eyes closed, the thoughts of a visual scene is limited. There seems to be one dark void, that could go on forever, or not at all. There is no ceiling in direct experience, when eyes are closed. The distance between body and ceiling collapses, into this infinite void. The only way to perceive this distance with eyes closed, would be to move the body enough to feel the space between body and ceiling. But this just invokes more thought, which is not the goal.
Is there a body?
There seems to be a definite illusion of a body. Even in this exercise there are thoughts of a body and they did not stop arising. However, when laying with eyes closed, it does seem easier to see that the body is more of a illusion of thought and the dark void that is in awareness seems less of an illusion than anything else.
Is there a ceiling?
Well at this point in the exercise, there is absolutely no ceiling in direct experience and can be easily forgotten about.
Is there a distance?
Well I've already seen that distance is an illusion. There can be no distance without a thought of movement, and /or a thought of visual distance. And with no separation, even the air that would be between two objects is the same substance as the 'two objects' meaning that there is no 'point A to point B' there is only - - - well, everything.
Is there an inside or outside of anything?
No. No separation. Only thoughts of separation.
Can someone gate? Is there a gate?
Actually I am not too familiar with this term and not sure what it refers to. I have heard the phrase "the gateless gate", but not sure if it is referring to awakening, or enlightenment, or whatever. But short answer is no, there is no gate or someone who can gate. This entire so-called path, or journey, is completely illusory just as much as the idea of Justin. There is no justin to seek, or to pass a gate, or anything! Yet meanwhile there is a story of this happening and this illusionary story seems to be happening right now. Is this a paradox? Or just plain false?


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