No More Delusion Please

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Zafu
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Re: No More Delusion Please

Postby Zafu » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 am

I see them as all part of this single experience of some cosmic show.
And where are "you" in this show?
Are you experiencing this show?
Tell me how it is!
I don't know where "I" am in this show. The thought or idea or perception of "I" does not enter my field of awareness for the short duration of this realization. It is often soon followed by "I am watching a show" or something, but I recognize it is just a thought and not really a 'self' who is doing the watching.
There are a couple of times, not too often, that I don't see people as people anymore. I don't mean this in some weird sinister way. I just mean that I don't label them as "people" but instead see it all as one thing. This helps me not take anything personally. This allows me to show more compassion.
"taking something personaly" what is that in Direct experience?
Are you able to show more compassion or is it more like "compassion rises and is experieced"?
Please check this honestly how it is experienced!
we do not have to cut the word "I" in our language, its a fine tool for comunication, but we have to check what is experienced.
'Taking something personally' is just the arising of a thought based around this idea of a 'self'. What I meant was in direct experience, I can see the thought arising, but quickly recognize that the thought content is not real and therefore there is "no one" to take things 'personally'. Quickly realizing there is no 'self' to take anything personally.

Once this realization that the thought content is not real and there is no 'self' to experience something personally, compassion just arises. I see it in my experience that as with any decision like the hand experiments, just as a hand just rises off the table on its own, what is usually deemed "compassion" just arises as an action all by itself. It was never really a "Ok, there is no 'self' here, so let me be compassionate. Hmm, what would be the compassionate thing to do here? Ok I'll do that". It was more of a just unfolding of actions.
Other than that I don't know what else has changed. Like I mentioned before, I keep thinking that "there should be some big profound change" but I recognize those are just fantasies. I don't really care anymore.
:-) that realy sounds like a big change !!!
I mean, everything is basically still the 'same'. I don't know how to answer this question lol
yes! when an illusion is revealed, nothing has disappeared or added. Just an old belief is seen for what it is!

Keep on observing and reporting for a few days: ... what has changed and what remained same?
dont think about. observe in a relaxed way. Maybe something new pops up or not ..... no right or wrong!

love verananda
Not sure what else to say other than that. Nothing new lol.

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Verananda
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Re: No More Delusion Please

Postby Verananda » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:21 am

Hi Zafu,

sounds good!

Can you give me a big fat non intellectual but really seen YES that there is no separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form and there never was one? No I that makes decisions, has free will or control over anything?
100% yes? Any doubt?

Or any open question from your side?

love
verananda

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Zafu
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Re: No More Delusion Please

Postby Zafu » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:58 am

Can you give me a big fat non intellectual but really seen YES that there is no separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form and there never was one? No I that makes decisions, has free will or control over anything?
100% yes? Any doubt?

Or any open question from your side?
YES. No Doubt. No questions.

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Verananda
Posts: 575
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Re: No More Delusion Please

Postby Verananda » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:07 am

Hi Zafu,

fine!

I would like to give you the "6 final questions". It is a good opportunity to check if you have seen through the different aspects of no-self. If something is not clear we will look at it.

You answered some of these aspects in your posts before. It is a good way to write or summarize here as it is seen now ... have fun:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

looking forward to your answers :-)
warmly verananda

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Zafu
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Re: No More Delusion Please

Postby Zafu » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:37 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
Never was nor is such a thing
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
The simplest way I can put it, in terms of how I have been 'seeing' it recently, is that some actions happen, and then a mental narrative/thoughts occur that consists of something along the lines of "this experience happened to me/was caused by me". The thought contents are usually claiming 'ownership' of experiences.

These thoughts are never questioned or examined directly. And therefore, "we" believe them. When directly examined for what they are, despite what the thought contents are, there is no "self" in direct experience.

When unexamined and believed as true, these thoughts essentially keep me/us in a perpetual state of "dreaming". We are believing things that are not really there.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
If I may steal a word from this website, it feels "liberating". I say it is liberating because I very much likely will fall into the false beliefs of 'self' again and again, but I can always 'wake up' from this false dream and realize most of the suffering is totally unnecessary and can be tossed away.

That is the difference from before and after this dialogue. I can now always see the truth of no-self again and again whenever I like simply by directly perceiving reality as it is, and all the unnecessary baggage that comes from this "illusion of self" gets dropped immediately. What a relief to know I have seen truth and I cannot unsee it. I did not have this before.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I'm not sure if I can pinpoint the exact moment, if there even was one, but what really made me "LOOK" was the exercises on free will/hand exercises. Following that exercise, I had moments in every day life where I would see beyond intellectually at life and "see" that everything I said and did and moved, etc... for the past 5 minutes as well as in that specific moment in time, was all something that happened all on its own and I saw a people around me as all just 'happening all on its own' as well and I felt a connection, and then more acts (such as compassion) started just going about all on their own without a 'owner/doer/self' involved. And "I" was just watching a show it felt like. Show consists of not only the visuals, but also the feelings. It was peaceful.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.
warmly verananda
a) There is no free will, choice, nor control. This implies a 'self' who has the free will to make choices. This implies a 'self' who can control 'others'. But there is no 'self'. Choices, decisions, intentions are weird. From what I can see, they just happen. Sure I get thoughts that try to take ownership of them, but I can see that this is not true.

b) I don't know how things happen. I don't know how it works. The world just moves on. "I" just continue moving on. It just happens.

c) This is a weird question. There cannot be a responsibility on me cause there is no 'me'. This is weird to say because it makes it sound like "I" am removing myself of responsibility for my life. But this is just a belief. If I had to say something "I" am responsible for, it would be to just see things as they are and not how I imagine them to be. Those moments of directly perceiving reality without illusion of self fooling me, showed me that not seeing anything as separate allows "compassion" to arise. But for me to say 'no-self' leads to compassion is just a belief as well.

I think the one thing that is true is that if we see things directly as they are, see Truth, then that's all. Have 'faith' that whatever this truthful perception leads to is what is meant to be. I mean, who can argue against what is Truth? Any notion that direct experience of no-self leads to "errors and wrongdoings" is only another belief.

d) An example would be my answer to question 4

6) Anything to add?
I thought if I saw "no-self" I would be having some dramatic experience and huge shift in the way I see the world or whatever. Those were just beliefs. In reality, it's not dramatic, nor huge. That doesn't mean that it's not bad neither. It's not good nor bad. It's just more of like, "why get all excited about some truth now, when it was already there all this time?"

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Verananda
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Re: No More Delusion Please

Postby Verananda » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:56 am

Hi Zafu,

thank you for your wonderful answers!

At the moment I have no further questions.

The other guides will have a look at it.

I will post again soon.

Love
Verananda

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Verananda
Posts: 575
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: No More Delusion Please

Postby Verananda » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:04 am

Hi Zafu,

welcome through the Gateless Gate. There are no further questions for you.

Your name will be changed from green to blue on the forum, which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. Our conversation is technically concluded and our thread has been moved to Archive section.

Keep an eye out for PM (privat message) from admin team which invites you to LU Facebook groups and has other information and resources.

It has been a pleasure to walk this journey with you. Thank you for being so open and willing to LOOK!

Love

Verananda

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Zafu
Posts: 19
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:32 am

Re: No More Delusion Please

Postby Zafu » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:09 pm

Hello Verananda,

Thank you for guiding me through the gate. You have been such a helpful and kind guide! I will be looking out for the PM. Thanks again!


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