Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

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Dave1
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Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby Dave1 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:42 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That there's only an 'I' when there's a thought 'I', and no idea where thoughts come from so there probably never an 'I'.

What are you looking for at LU?
Wel after the insight that there's no 'I' it immediately got claimed by an 'I'.
And my ego is still there suffering as usual...
Wel after the insight that there's no 'I' it immediately got claimed by an 'I'.
And my ego is still there suffering as usual...

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Find out how more about self-inquiry and how it can lead me further...
Find out how more about self-inquiry and how it can lead me further...
Find out how more about self-inquiry and how it can lead me further...

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

Been busy the last 10 years with all kind of directions, practices.
Several awakenings with Advaita Vedanta, BUT NO CLUE WHERE TO GO TO HAVE FULL/FURTHER REALIZATION...

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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gondwana
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby gondwana » Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:33 am

Hello Dave,

Welcome to the Liberation Unleashed forums, it sounds like you are ready to look! I will be most happy to guide you. Should I call you Dave, or is there some other name you prefer to go by?

Before we get started, just a few important preliminaries.

Throughout our conversation I will ask you a series of questions. For each question, you will need to look in your OWN direct experience, and answer with 100% honesty. Please answer each question individually (using the quote function) and answer every question each time.

I point. You look. You tell me what you see, right there and then in the present moment. Rinse & repeat. Simple :)

The answer MUST come from your own direct experience, in the present moment (the NOW). That means: avoid thinking about it too much and analysing, avoid relying on memory of what happened some other time. Always LOOK in the now, the present moment. This also means avoid relying on the thoughts and memories of others, so please avoid reading books/blog posts/YouTube videos/etc related to seeking and the teachings of others, for the entire period of our conversation. This is very important.

Lastly please watch the below 30 second video and learn how to use the quote function. This is important for us to have a clear, structured dialogue centred on the question and answer format.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Please make an effort to write here every day. This works best if we keep a constant focus on looking!

Does the above sound ok?
Tim
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Dave1
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby Dave1 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:38 am

Hi Tim,

Thanks for your reply and time.
it sounds like you are ready to look!
Yes, indeed!
Should I call you Dave, or is there some other name you prefer to go by?
Dave is perfect!
Does the above sound ok?
Yes, ready to go..

Best,

Dave

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gondwana
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby gondwana » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:23 am

You’re welcome!

Just picking up on a few good points from your application firstly:
there's only an 'I' when there's a thought 'I', and no idea where thoughts come from so there probably never an 'I'.
after the insight that there's no 'I' it immediately got claimed by an 'I'.
These first two are great insights! Very clear, and exactly correct. Keep those as we go forward.
And my ego is still there suffering as usual...
What do you think the ego is, exactly?
Any ideas?

Ok so you mentioned having above no idea where thoughts come from. Let’s take a direct look and find out with a few little experiments!

Try this one, and report back what you find:

Sit at home with eyes closed. In your mind, imagine going to the kitchen and getting a piece of fruit (be sure to choose something you already have in stock, as we will need if after).

Try to fully imagine actually going in there, picking it up, the look of it, the weight, the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light on it. Then imagine biting into the fruit, tasting it, the texture, sweetness, sharpness, all the qualities. Imagine every aspect, make it as real as possible! This is an example of using thought.

Now open your eyes, and actually go to the kitchen. Take the piece of fruit out for real, and look at it, examine the colour, texture, smell, reflections of light. Now actually bite into the fruit and taste it, experience the texture, the sweetness, sharpness, etc. This is an example of actual experience (AE).

How does actual experience compare to thought?
Which feels more real?
Was thought able to fully capture all the detail and richness of the experience?
Can thought actually ever be as complete as AE?

Please answer each question individually, and answer all questions.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Dave1
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby Dave1 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:06 am

And my ego is still there suffering as usual...
What do you think the ego is, exactly?
Any ideas?
Well when looking into 'ego' is just the same as 'I' to me.
So I meant to say "I saw that there's no real 'I" and I'm still really suffering" :-)
Looking further into it there's only an ego when there's a thought 'ego'.
Ego is just a concept which I'm unable to define or find.
There's also only suffering when there's a thought.
How does actual experience compare to thought?
Actual experience needs no thoughts, can be experienced without thoughts
Which feels more real?
AE feels more real
Was thought able to fully capture all the detail and richness of the experience?
No
Can thought actually ever be as complete as AE?
No. Insight: AE gets interpreted by thoughs all the time and these thoughts are NOT AE!

Best,
Dave

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gondwana
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Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby gondwana » Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:22 am

Great!

So it was seen how
>> actual experience <<
is completely different to
>> thoughts about actual experience <<

Thoughts may be altogether very convincing at times, but that still will never make them reality.

Thoughts can basically do only one of two things:
— Thoughts about actual experience (AE)
— Thoughts about other thoughts

The important point is, in both cases, thought is not real. AE is fundamentally different to thought about AE.

And you’re right, AE doesn’t NEED thought at all to happen. Thought is layered over the top (and mostly superfluous).

Next, if you sit quietly for a moment, and watch thought happening.
Where does the next thought come from?
Who decides what it would be?
Who decides when it goes?
Can you stop the next thought arising?
Can you stop it leaving?
Can you decide in advance what it contains?
Where do they come from?
Well when looking into 'ego' is just the same as 'I' to me.
So I meant to say "I saw that there's no real 'I" and I'm still really suffering" Image
Looking further into it there's only an ego when there's a thought 'ego'.
Ego is just a concept which I'm unable to define or find.
That’s absolutely right, and exactly the point.

The original language you used was actually just fine. We could say “ego is still suffering”, or “I am still suffering” - they are equivalent, are they not?

Only an ego when there’s a thought “ego”.
Only an I when there’s a thought “I”.
Aren’t they both concepts, which cannot be defined or found in reality?
One and the same?
There's also only suffering when there's a thought.
There’s only suffering when there’s a thought, yes.

So if you take a look in AE, right now, check:
Isn’t suffering actually just a thought itself?
(And I do mean suffering, and not physical pain by the way; if you look at physical pain, isn’t that actually composed of physical sensation + suffering that makes it worse?
Plus an “I” thought that says “it’s me in pain, they’re doing it to ME”!)

So, if suffering exists only as a thought.
If the ego is only there when there’s a thought, is the ego also only a thought?
If “I” is only there when there’s a thought, is “I” also only a thought?
Look and check for yourself!

And if you already saw that thought is not real....

What is “I”?
What is “ego”?
What have they always been, it’s just that you may have never looked?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Dave1
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby Dave1 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:31 am

Where does the next thought come from?
I've no idea and don't even know where the thought "I've no idea" came from.
Who decides what it would be?
This is a really insightful, I've no control over my thoughts. there's no I and no control
Who decides when it goes?
Nobody. It just seems to come and go
Can you stop the next thought arising?
Tried that for far to long. That's a definite NO!
Can you stop it leaving?
No
Can you decide in advance what it contains?
No
Where do they come from?
I've no idea and don't even know where the thought "I've no idea" came from.
Insight: There's a hidden identification in most thoughts even if they don't contain the word "I" or are not self related, Like "I'm the one thinking this".
We could say “ego is still suffering”, or “I am still suffering” - they are equivalent, are they not?
YES
Isn’t suffering actually just a thought itself?
Suffering is ONLY a thought/concept
So, if suffering exists only as a thought.
If the ego is only there when there’s a thought, is the ego also only a thought?
If “I” is only there when there’s a thought, is “I” also only a thought?
Look and check for yourself!

And if you already saw that thought is not real....

What is “I”?
What is “ego”?
What have they always been, it’s just that you may have never looked?
At this point I would say "I" is ONLY a thought coming from nowhere and not controlled in any way by this "I" itself.

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gondwana
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby gondwana » Fri Sep 14, 2018 1:43 am

Tried that for far to long. That's a definite NO!
Right! Haha.. anyone who has ever tried to meditate, knows... there is NO hope of stopping thoughts arising.
This is a really insightful, I've no control over my thoughts. there's no I and no control
I've no idea and don't even know where the thought "I've no idea" came from.
Yes and this is the crux of it:
- we actually don't know where thoughts come from
- what we do know, is that they are not under our control AT ALL

So the belief/assumption that thoughts are real, and that we are our thoughts, are simply proved to be incorrect.
We can observe them as an outsider, an impartial observer, and it is seen that they are both separate from us, and at the same time utterly empty of any substance or reality. They vanish as suddenly as they appear, leaving no trace! Like clouds in the sky, blowing away leaving a clear and unchanged sky.
Insight: There's a hidden identification in most thoughts even if they don't contain the word "I" or are not self related, Like "I'm the one thinking this".
Bingo! :). Thoughts need not just be "verbal" (the voice in the head), they can also sometimes be conceptual, abstract, subtle.
Suffering is ONLY a thought/concept
At this point I would say "I" is ONLY a thought coming from nowhere and not controlled in any way by this "I" itself
Great so it was clearly seen that:
Suffering is only a thought;
Ego is only a thought;
"I" is only a thought.

We already saw with the piece of fruit, that thought is not real.
So if thought is not real, and ego is only a thought, then ego is .......?
If thought is not real, and "I" is only a thought, then "I" is .......?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Dave1
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby Dave1 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:16 am

We already saw with the piece of fruit, that thought is not real.
So if thought is not real, and ego is only a thought, then ego is .......?
If thought is not real, and "I" is only a thought, then "I" is .......?

So if "my body" is only a thought, then my body is not mine and not real.
=> There is no fundamental/independent/objective reality.

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gondwana
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Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby gondwana » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:59 am

So if "my body" is only a thought, then my body is not mine and not real.
=> There is no fundamental/independent/objective reality.
That is true, but it comes later. The mind will try to do everything possible not to look at THE only important question!

Is “I” a real thing, or not?
Is there such a thing as “I”?
LOOK now, in your present experience.
Don’t use memory or analysis.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Dave1
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby Dave1 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:05 am

Is “I” a real thing, or not?
Is there such a thing as “I”?
LOOK now, in your present experience.
Don’t use memory or analysis.
Well I can't really find it now or ever. Except for a thought "I", I can not find any "I" in there or out there.
Thoughts are not real so the "I" is not real.

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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby Dave1 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:08 am

Replied to soon.
On the other hand if the "I" is not real, then what is real?
Then nothing is real, so the only thing I know is really real is that "I am".

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Dave1
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby Dave1 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:09 am

And anything I think the "I" is or isn't is not real.

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gondwana
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby gondwana » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:57 am

Haha, tried to run before you can walk there ;)

The only important thing is this:
The body is real. But “you” do not own it, because “you” do not exist.
The world is real.
All we are saying is, in that sense of real, physical reality, thought is NOT real.
And “me”/“I”/the separate “self” is NOT real. It is simply a bunch of thoughts, a belief that it is real.

Like Santa Claus. Did your belief in him ever make him real?

Suffering, also is strictly not real because it is also only thought, which means that suffering can be ended (or at least dealt with effectively) by dealing with the source of those thoughts - the “I” thought.

Now, we could go further down to a whole other level about physical reality being mostly empty space and energy, or projections of the mind, and nonduality, but that all just really isn’t important to see through the illusion of the separate self. We can go there after, and many people do.

But everything has to start by seeing through the illusion of the separate self, THAT is the key to everything else.

Now I could just tell you that it isn’t real. You may even believe me. But that just creates yet another belief. Intellectual knowledge only. Ineffective.

What is important, is to start by checking whether thought is real. This was seen clearly. Tick.
Then to check if “I” is just made of thought. Tick?
Then check if that means “I” is not real.
This, allows the strong belief to begin to be let go of.
Ultimately then, after that there has to actually be LOOKING for the separate self “I” and see if it really is not there to be found.
This is where most people get stuck, and want to complexity the discussion, look at the shiny toys of what this means for physical reality, blah blah...

But once that looking happens, and when it is not found, it is seen clearly, directly, in actual experience that the “I” is not actually real.
Now it is intellectual AND experiential knowledge, true transformation - not a belief.

Can you work with that?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

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Dave1
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Re: Had some kind of awakening where I saw there's no me, curious to know more and to deepen...

Postby Dave1 » Fri Sep 14, 2018 12:59 pm

Walking
Yes, I can definitely work with that.
Many people thing indeed that it's conciousness, awareness, or some other new concept.
I'm definitely not one of them and glad you confirmed my current truth.
Thoughts are not real. TICK!
The "I" is ONLY an "I" thought. TICK!
Therefore the "I" is not real. TICK!
Therefore there are 7 billion people without a real "I" walking around. Hilarious!
That was indeed my "awakening" experience in 2013!
Story closed. Thx a lot!

Running
Now this year i read goran backlund and not only was the "I" not real but actually "nothing" was "real"
But I agree 100% that you first have to see that the "I" is not there and foremost focus on the looking into the unfindable "I"
Thx for bringing my focus back there!


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