Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:42 pm

Hi Billy,
I feel so close It's just this bit that keeps tripping me up
yes, seems same to me. stay tuned and we will make it.

It seems to me a bit that it is totaly clear: no I, no self, no controll .....
And then an undercover "I" sneaks in through the back door ....
But we will find out, that even this is nothing more than thought!

ok, we go further step by step and shine in every corner ...

You mentioned fear. Is fear an issue in your life?

Here is an exercise around this:
If you dont have control why fight against?
Habitual and fear, lack of seeing!
... due to the fear instigated through thought streams, that one may make the wrong choice.
Tell me more about this fear. How do you experience it?
Next time it comes up - little or big - stay in direct experiece and observe what realy happen. Take some time for it.
Look like a hawk! Dont think about. You cant do this exercice in mind.
Describe in detail what you find!



warmly verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:36 pm

You mentioned fear. Is fear an issue in your life?
I would have said not particularly but perhaps its more prominent than i have been willing ro admit. when it comes to what's the right decision. The fear of getting it wrong causes the indecisive thought stream. Sometimes a lack of confidence in work that I do.
Tell me more about this fear. How do you experience it?
Through thought. In a decision making situation I play scenarios over. Fearful that the choice is the wrong choice.
In work situation. Lack of belief in what I am capable of. Laughably though, I am more than capable and can, and have, accomplished so much but that fearful thought stream can make me back off from job offers.
I now that this is thought but not believing these thoughts is the problem.

Thank You kindly
Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:32 am

Hi Billy,

We go around in circles a bit, but that is not a problem, it is normal at this point. We will find the way out.
when it comes to what's the right decision. The fear of getting it wrong causes the indecisive thought stream. Sometimes a lack of confidence in work that I do.
This assumes that you can make a decision. That you are in control of things happen.
Is that true? Look. We did the experiments. Review them, repeat them.
Look as seriously as if your life would depend on it.
And then tell me exactly: What are you in control of?
Don't choose the easy "right" answere. It is important.

There is this indecisive thought stream. No problem. Just thoughts that try to protect something. We look if this something that is protected realy exists.
Fearful that the choice is the wrong choice. In work situation. Lack of belief in what I am capable of. Laughably though, I am more than capable and can, and have, accomplished so much but that fearful thought stream can make me back off from job offers.
Are there actual situations? Are you applying for jobs right now? We need the actual challenges to work with. Not the past and assumed future ones. Please tell me one real and actual situation you are faced that is in context of this fear.

love verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:34 pm

Evening Verananda
And then tell me exactly: What are you in control of?
I have been looking at this in everyday life. Been repeating the exercise.
Nothing. The thought is after the decision. It's so easy to believe that thought makes the decision. Mind really does not want to let that go. It wants you to believe it makes all the choices!!
Are there actual situations? Are you applying for jobs right now? We need the actual challenges to work with. Not the past and assumed future ones.
I worked for my families old established joinery business up until 3 months ago.i worked making joinery items. Doors, windows etc but the long periods of standing was causing painful problems. I am very fortunate to have a property with land. We opened a boarding kennel about 3 years ago which has got busier and busier. This has allowed me to leave my old job, although financially it can be difficult since losing my income. Therefore I should find another income. I have 2 or 3 business opportunities I could venture into that would need a small amount of capital to get them off the ground. So i have these thought streams of what would be best to undertake and get frustrated as I can't make a decision. Now I see from looking that I don't make the decision but still the mind wants to dwell over all the scenarios, imagining how I would feel doing each job thinking that will help me make the decision!
I have seen about thought not making the decision. I see everything is just thought. All the scenarios, will I enjoy it or not? Will it work? Etc etc. How does one break that cycle and habit? When will that decision be made?
How does one stop believing the mind? Although there are definite interruptions in the thought streams now which make me look and question. Is this the way to deal with it?

Love Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:06 pm

Hi Billy
Mind really does not want to let that go. It wants you to believe it makes all the choices!!
:-)
yes, there are old beliefs that are nothing more than thoughts.
There is no one who can get ride of it, they come and go.
No control.
But it can be seen, that its just thought and it is not true.
Thats all.
After that sometimes thoughts change, get more silent or become more.
whatever.
no contoller. no control.
Is "Mind" anything more or special that thoughts?
Is a "belief" anything more than a thought?


Thank you for your examlple from real life. We will work with that.
We already did this thought exercise and now we will repeat it with your real life issue.

Next time when the though stream about business opportunities an the "right" decision occures, take a step back. Just let the thoughts appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Do you have any control over the thoughts that appear or not?


How does one break that cycle and habit?
Who wants to break it? Isn't it just one more thought?
Show me this "one" in dierect experience!
Or are thre just thoughts that are cycling and habits that are happening?
Anything more?


When will that decision be made?
What exactly is a "decision"?
Is it the thought "I will do option 1"?
Is it the signature you put under a contract?
Anything else?
We have to see what a decision realy is to find the answere!

love verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:59 pm

Hi Verananda

I had answered all the last lot of questions and lost the lot.

I have much clarity on this but shall write tomorrow as it's late now.

Sorry for the delay

Love
Billy

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:12 pm

Good evening Verananda
Is "Mind" anything more or special that thoughts?
Nothing more than thoughts
Is a "belief" anything more than a thought?
Just a thought
Next time when the though stream about business opportunities an the "right" decision occures, take a step back. Just let the thoughts appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Coming from nothing and going back to nothing
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
No the appear without control.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
No. There is no control
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No. They come.
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No
Do you have any control over the thoughts that appear or not?
I do not have control.
How does one break that cycle and habit?
Who wants to break it? Isn't it just one more thought?
Yes. Just another thought
Show me this "one" in dierect experience!
Or are thre just thoughts that are cycling and habits that are happening?
Anything more?
Just thoughts and habits. Nothing more
What exactly is a "decision"?
Is it the thought "I will do option 1"?
Is it the signature you put under a contract?
Anything else?
A decision is just another thought.

I now see that ALL mind activity is only thought. I now find myself, when getting caught in the habitual cycles, recognising it as thought and not believing it. But now I feel a little disoriented . Almost as if I really don't have any interest I'm passionate about. It's a little hard to explain.

Warmly

Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:37 am

Hi Billy,
A decision is just another thought.
yes! :-)
and who or what makes decisions?

what does it mean to your real-life-example and other smaller everyday life decisions?
do you notice any changes in dealing with this?
(don't think about - observe it!)

You spoke about fear
Fearful that the choice is the wrong choice. In work situation. Lack of belief in what I am capable of. Laughably though, I am more than capable and can, and have, accomplished so much but that fearful thought stream can make me back off from job offers.
do you notice any changes?
Is there anything open or current we should look at now?

warmly verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:07 pm

and who or what makes decisions?
I don't know. It comes from nothing.
what does it mean to your real-life-example and other smaller everyday life decisions?
I try and go with what comes into mind first. I try to not get attached to the thought streams. Realise that they are just thoughts.
do you notice any changes in dealing with this?
I'm not so fearful. I don't get attached to the "what if's". I go more with the flow
You spoke about fear
do you notice any changes?
The old habitual cycle is there but I can realise it's just thoughts and distance myself. Almost as if I'm here and the mind is rattling away in the background. Therefore the worry or fearful thoughts don't affect me so strongly. I can see them for what they are and dismiss them.
Is there anything open or current we should look at now?
No. I have clarity on this. It's so easy to fall into the mind trap but I guess it just takes time and work to relax I to the flow of life.

Love Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:49 pm

Hi Billy,

thats fine! Seems life is more in a flow now.
Thats a wonderfull side effekt ... but not the goal of the game. :-)

We will have a look at this I/me that seems to be still there, but now with a bit more distance to everything .....!
I try and go with what comes into mind first.
I try to not get attached to the thought streams.
Sounds like an I that can decide with what to go ...?
I can realise it's just thoughts and distance myself.
Is there an I that can realise its just thought or is there just thought?
Who or what can distance itselfe from something?
Almost as if I'm here and the mind is rattling away in the background.
What is here? Look in dirct experience for this "I" and tell me what you find!

Have a deeper look to this questions!

warmly verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:52 pm

Hi Verananda

I feel like I'm going to crack. Lol. Seem to think seen it then not. Maybe I'm not getting deep enough. Frustrating it is.
It's also not easy to write down what I might be experiencing. When I refer to "I", it's in reference to what is observing the thoughts, whatever that may.

So then im stuck.
Ok. The observer, Observes thoughts coming from nothing and go to nothing. Observes decisions that are made from somewhere that can't be seen. A decision is just a thought. As is all the "What if's" that go before it. So thought analyses the situation that's presented and then a decision is observed in thought.
So, whatever is behind thought observes all through the senses and mind.
Now where I am definitely stuck is, the analytic mind with its weighing up the options, seems to have an effect on what decision thought pop's up. In some cases it maybe the difference between making a living or losing everything? In some cases it seems thought prevents a decision thought to appear?

Sorry for being complicated

Love
Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:51 am

Hi Billy,

did you try to find out the answeres that i gave to you in my last post?
Please try to answere it because these questions are the key to crack the illusion!
It's also not easy to write down what I might be experiencing.
Sure. Because "what I might be experiencing" is thought and in thought it can be everything. But thats useless for our investigaten. Looking in direct experience is very simple. Don't make it complicated. Do you see the difference?

This is our next focus: the observer
The observer, Observes thoughts coming from nothing and go to nothing.
thoughts coming from nothing and go to nothing. Thats right. But can you find this observer?
If not, can you be sure that the observer exists? Or is it just another belif, an idea? Look in direct experince for the observer! It is like turning around ... dont focus to the observed, look for the observer! report what you find out!
Now where I am definitely stuck is, ....
We will look for this later. Please first do the looking I suggested above!
Look in direct experience and report detailed what you find out.
Dont get lost in analysis and speculation about your findings!
Just look.
Very simple!

love verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:44 pm

Hi Verananda
Sounds like an I that can decide with what to go ...?
No.. your right. The I is all just thought.
Is there an I that can realise its just thought or is there just thought?
Who or what can distance itselfe from something?
It's all thought. There is nothing else. Only thought is thinking it's distancing itself from thought!
What is here? Look in dirct experience for this "I" and tell me what you find!
Nothing here. Only thought. It's really simple. Anything that's mind is only thought. Mind does not want to let go. It's so believable.
Sure. Because "what I might be experiencing" is thought and in thought it can be everything. But thats useless for our investigaten. Looking in direct experience is very simple. Don't make it complicated. Do you see the difference?
Yes. It's thought thinking of thought. I really see it now.
But can you find this observer?
No. Not as a single identity other than a thought of there being an observer!

Thank you Verananda. I am so grateful for your patience and guidance.

Love
Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:02 pm

Hi Billy,

Thats good. So we come back to this:
Now where I am definitely stuck is, the analytic mind with its weighing up the options, seems to have an effect on what decision thought pop's up. In some cases it maybe the difference between making a living or losing everything? In some cases it seems thought prevents a decision thought to appear?
Ok so thoughts pop up and than one of this thought have the content thats labled "decision".
The important question here is: do you have any control over any of these thoughts poping up or not or different?
If not, why dont relax and watch the show?

Your question is a analytic-mind-thought-made-question right?
Not so much direct experience in it ....?
What helps here is dont start with the big stuff. Watch this process of thoughts, decision, actions, control, controler ... in direct experience in everyday life for some days. Report what you find out once a day.

Warmly verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:18 pm

Ok so thoughts pop up and than one of this thought have the content thats labled "decision".
The important question here is: do you have any control over any of these thoughts poping up or not or different?
No control. Just thoughts popping up

If not, why dont relax and watch the show?
Yes. I'm doing this. Relaxing into them and watching.
Your question is a analytic-mind-thought-made-question right?
Yes. What else could it be :). With no direct experience. Only thought thinking about thought.
What helps here is dont start with the big stuff. Watch this process of thoughts, decision, actions, control, controler ... in direct experience in everyday life for some days. Report what you find out once a day.
The mind always wants to believe it controls all, but when looked at I find no controller. I shall continue to report and watch closely

Kindest regards
Billy


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