Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:15 pm

Evening Verananda

Still working on this exercise. Trying to notice if I there are times I am lifting the hand without though being involved. It's very quiet and subtle to notice this.
I shall continue to enquire

Love
Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:51 am

thats good, take your time!
Trying to notice if I there are times I am lifting the hand without though being involved.
Just relax and look what happens. No expected result. If there are thoughts it would be no problem. Do you have any control about thoughts coming up or not? You can also watch this. Thoughts are also direct experience, but the content of thought is not. "Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience" means: Don't get lost in the content of thought, dont belief what thoughts are telling you!

have fun with it
verananda

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:18 am

Hi Billy,

how are you?

are you still busy with the exercise?

Let's hear where you are right now .... its good to stay in contact every one to two days ...

warmly verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:43 am

Hi Verananda

I thought I had sent a post over. How annoying. It must not have submitted. I had been waiting on your reply. I am working just now but will write my findings to you tonight.
Thanks for getting in touch

Love
Billy

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:29 pm

Evening Verananda

I have done this exercise a lot trying to find what's going on.
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
I can't find anything. There maybe something very subtle but I'm not sure it's not just thought.
How is the decision made?
The decision just seems to be made. Only when thought comes in it becomes a deliberation. When I don't go to thought the hand is raised.

I have found this exercise not crystal clear in my findings as I really can't find anything

Kindest regards
Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:56 am

Hi Billy,
I have done this exercise a lot trying to find what's going on.
I’m glad that you are so willing to look.
It is good to do this exercises with the ignorance and curiosity of a small child. Not knowing, just looking, no judging what is found.
Your findings are very good, lets see …
What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
I can't find anything. There maybe something very subtle but I'm not sure it's not just thought.
Sometimes it is not what we find that is surprising and scary but that what we dont find. If you “can't find anything” could it be that there is nothing? We will have a closer look to this “very subtle”. Maybe it is just thought? Could it be that there are thoughts that are searching for something that can not be found? We have to know for sure.
It would also be helpful that you answer all of the questions. Some seems redundant, but they all point to slightly different aspects of truth. It is helpful to use all of these pointers, so I give the missed ones to you here:
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?
The decision just seems to be made. Only when thought comes in it becomes a deliberation. When I don't go to thought the hand is raised.
Yes, decision just seems to be made. Can you find anything that is in control?
So when thoughts come in, our investigation will become exciting: Do the thoughts really affect the hand movement? Can thoughts do anything? Or is there one hand moved and additionally there are thoughts? Also pay attention to the order of movement and thoughts. What do the thoughts say? Do they comment the action afterwards?
I have found this exercise not crystal clear in my findings as I really can't find anything
yes. exactly that is it.
looking for something that does not exist can be a a lifelong search.
seeing what is real needs only this one and only moment.

do the exercise again with the additional questions. It is not about finding something (different). It is about believing what you already have seen. Looking again until it is totally believed will make it crystal clear!

with love
verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:47 pm

Hi Verananda

What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

As before I can't find anything. If thought is elsewhere the hand can still be moved. The more i enquire the more I find nothing.
So when thoughts come in, our investigation will become exciting: Do the thoughts really affect the hand movement? Can thoughts do anything? Or is there one hand moved and additionally there are thoughts? Also pay attention to the order of movement and thoughts. What do the thoughts say? Do they comment the action afterwards?
This took deep enquiry and is ever so subtle to notice and believe. The decision is made prior to thought. Even if thought ponders the decision is made before thought quickly. Thought then follows after. Such a weird experience to notice this. Lol

What now? :) lol

Love
Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:09 pm

Hi Billy,

yes, it seems you can't find anything because there is nothing, right?
What now? :) lol
exacly that: laughing ....
... and further looking :-)
keep on looking in your everyday life, each time you make a decision ... put the green or the red socks on? .... drink one more coffee? ....

and then tell me: ... there not being a me and who makes decision?

and what about "free will" ?

you do very well ! great findings!

warmly verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 9:54 pm

keep on looking in your everyday life, each time you make a decision ... put the green or the red socks on? .... drink one more coffee?
Yes I do and shall continue. This will take a little while to adjust. I do have a question though.


what happens when your faced with a decision that the illusionary self feels has to be made. Not an immediate one but an important one. Thought plays it's usual game of "Will I do this or will I do that" it will deliberate until something happens. Now I see that thought has not made this decision, therefore this is obviously the end of what one calls free will!
But we have all made wrong choices at some point in our life and believed that was through analysing the choices given to us.
Was all that analysing a waste of energy?
Would the wrong choice always have been made?
How does one prevent these wrong choices if one has no free will?

Does one switch of to this chatter of the mind and allow things to materialise in its own time?

Yikes... that seems scary.

Sorry for the question. And Thank You for your patience and your help

With love
Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Tue Oct 02, 2018 9:25 am

Hi Billy,

we will find the answeres to your questions by looking in direct experience.
what happens when your faced with a decision that the illusionary self feels has to be made.
the illusionary self is an illusion, as the term already says, right?
how can an illusion decide something, do something, feel something?
can you find anything else than thoughts about the decision and a thought that says "I", "me", "my decision", "my life", ....?

But we have all made wrong choices at some point in our life and believed that was through analysing the choices given to us.
Was all that analysing a waste of energy?
Analysing is nothing more than thoughts, right?
Do you have control over thoughts?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
....
do you remember this exercice about thoughts? we already did that ...
don't analyse ;-)
.... look in everyday life if it is the same here or if it was just a funny exercise ....

Would the wrong choice always have been made?
How does one prevent these wrong choices if one has no free will?
decisions are made, actions happen, thoughts are thought.
we can look here and now in direct expirience what is.
each "would", "could", "if" .... is nothing more than a game of thought, that also just happens. Who or what judges about right and wrong?
Are these thoughts true? Is any thought true?

Do you know the story about The Zen Master, The Boy, & The Horse?
In this village, a little boy is given a gift of a horse. The villagers all say, “Isn’t that fabulous? Isn’t that wonderful? What a wonderful gift.”

The Zen master says, “We’ll see.”

A couple years later the boy falls off the horse and breaks his leg. The villagers all say, “Isn’t that terrible? The horse is cursed! That’s horrible!”

The Zen master says, “We’ll see.”

A few years later the country goes to war and the government conscripts all the males into the army, but the boy’s leg is so screwed up, he doesn’t have to go. The villagers all say, “Isn’t that fabulous? Isn’t that wonderful?”

The Zen master says, “We’ll see.”


So this is also just a story, but a story that shows us something about the idea of true thoughts and what might be the best ....
Does one switch of to this chatter of the mind and allow things to materialise in its own time?
Do you have control over this chatter-thoughts arising or not?
Can you allow things? Do you have any kind of control over it? Or do they just happen regardless of whether there is the thought "its ok" or "its not ok, it should be different!"
... same thing again and again ....
looking again and again will make this clear!
your are doing well! all questions are wellcome!
as you already said: "This will take a little while to adjust."

love
verananda

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:00 am

Hi Billy,

how are you doing?

Let's hear where you are right now .... its good to stay in contact every one to two days ...

warmly verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:22 pm

Hi Verananda

Sorry. I thought I was just to keep going everyday life and not ask anymore or be in touch.

I see and can experience the separation between thoughts and the nothingness behind them. The fact that a thought is just a thought and that thought does not directly make the decision. The difference to notice this is subtle and easily missed especially when given a choice. E.g.. should I go swimming or biking. Now the illusionary self gets caught up analysing what one wants to do. Myself being particularly indecisive could have that scenario going on for a while. Now the decision does not come from thought but somewhere else really meaning the, will I, won't I is a complete waste of energy and time. Eventually thought may say," we will go swimming".

How does one eradicate this time wasting thought pattern if the decision is already made? When is the decision made? How can one have more clarity instead of the tedious analytic mind?

Thanks for getting in touch. I honestly thought we were done.

Kindest regards
Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:12 pm

Hi Billy,
I thought I was just to keep going everyday life and not ask anymore or be in touch.
no, it was the invitation to look in everyday life, but report each one to two days about your findings. Can be that it wasn't clear communicated from my side. no problem.

Are you already satisfied with our result?

I'm here with you until it is done. If you want that too. And right now it is not done because there are open important questions.


So lets continue:
Now the illusionary self gets caught up analysing what one wants to do. Myself being particularly indecisive could have that scenario going on for a while.
You found out that the illusionary self is not more than thoughts, right?
My impression is that it would be helpful for you to exchange the term "illusionary self" with "thoughts".
Only for a while to try. If I listen to you I have the impression the "illusionary self" is something special. But if it is nothing more than thoughts, it is nothing more than thoughts. Or can you find anything more? Anything different?

If you agree lets translate your sentence "Now the illusionary self gets caught up analysing what one wants to do."
It would be then: "There are a lot of thoughts about what to do"
Anything more?
Look in direct experience!
When is the decision made?
Good question. Look!
There are thoughts about it. What I schould, would, could ....
Action happens. You go swimming or biking or something else.
Can you find anything more?
Does it need anything more?
How does one eradicate this time wasting thought pattern if the decision is already made?
Thoughts come and go. No control over it. You already found that out?
If you dont have control why fight against?
Is this "I want to eradicate this time wasting thought pattern " anything more than another thought pattern?
How can one have more clarity instead of the tedious analytic mind?
By looking in direct experience as we do here. You can see what is true. It is very simple. There is no problem with the analytic mind. Instead of beliefing what it says or fighting against, look what is true.
In direct experience: seeing, hearing, sensing, .... and thoughts (but not content of thought).

Love Verananda

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:16 pm

... and I see, in my previous post there were a lot of question ...
Please answer any question!
even if they sound very simple.
They are for you to get clarity and for me to see where you are .....

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:08 am

Are you already satisfied with our result?
No.
You found out that the illusionary self is not more than thoughts, right?
Yes. No doubt about that in anyway
My impression is that it would be helpful for you to exchange the term "illusionary self" with "thoughts".
Only for a while to try. If I listen to you I have the impression the "illusionary self" is something special. But if it is nothing more than thoughts, it is nothing more than thoughts. Or can you find anything more? Anything different?
Ok. No I can't find anything more than thoughts or anything different.

It would be then: "There are a lot of thoughts about what to do"
Anything more?
Look in direct experience!
Nothing more. Just a continuous stream of what to do. Just thoughts!
There are thoughts about it. What I schould, would, could ....
Action happens. You go swimming or biking or something else.
Can you find anything more?
Does it need anything more?
No only thoughts. It doesn't need anymore.
Thoughts come and go. No control over it. You already found that out?
Yes. Again without doubt.
If you dont have control why fight against?
Habitual and fear, lack of seeing!
Is this "I want to eradicate this time wasting thought pattern " anything more than another thought pattern?
It is just more thought pattern. Then it's so easy to fall into this trap of believing thought. In the hand exercise my experience showed that the hand raised was not done by thought. Although if I went to thought and thought I am going to raise my left hand. Then I would raise my left hand. I could then ponder on these thoughts as to which hand maybe raised next. Now this is where I am stuck once again. Thought can't make the decision but it has to manipulate what choice is made.
By looking in direct experience as we do here. You can see what is true. It is very simple. There is no problem with the analytic mind. Instead of beliefing what it says or fighting against, look what is true.
There is no problem with analytic mind but it seems it can prevent one moving forward due to the fear instigated through thought streams, that one may make the wrong choice.

Sorry verananda. You must be banging your head of a brick wall with me. Thank you for your patience. I feel so close It's just this bit that keeps tripping me up

With love
Billy


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