Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

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Turlough74
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Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 7:58 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I can see glimmers of the non existent "I" but struggle to understand if life is just happening, who is making the decisions?

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance to help see truth. I can conceptualize what truth is. I feel I'm almost there, but need guidance to help me see past sticking points. I can understand that life is happening but when we have decision to make, who is making them? How does one make the correct decision or how does one surrender to the worry of Making the correct decision? Then us the decision maker not the seperate "I"?

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointers to help see through the confusion. After reading the book, I could see how the guides successfully helped people through there mind entrapments. I am hoping I to cam be guided out of my own confusion

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
Various meditation techniques over the past 4 years. Inquiring into what's behind the thoughts watching thoughts and trying to maintain the gap between thoughts. Stretch the periods of silence over longer periods. Heartfulness meditation

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:02 am

Hi Turlough74,

welcome to Liberation Unleashed. Glad you made it here.
I'm Verananda and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
Should I call you Turlough74 or is there another name you would prefer?

Looking forward to our talk,
Verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:04 am

Hi Verananda

Thanks for getting in touch.
My name is Billy so please feel free to call me that.

I'm not entirely sure if I have seen through the gate or not. I have experiences of times of stillness and little thought movement. At these times, visually there is a very subtle change to how things look. Almost a subtle sense of detachment from the body as well.? But the old thought patterns are never far away, although I don't follow them so much.

One thought pattern that I get caught up in and creates confusion is although I can't find anything behind the thought of "I". That there is no driver. Who makes decisions? Is it a case that life gives us options and it is the mind that makes these decisions? I have never been the best at decision making. Always worried it was the wrong choice, although I am noticing a slight change in this also.

Thanks again for getting in touch

Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:13 am

Hi Billy,
I'm not entirely sure if I have seen through the gate or not.
We will check it out step by step, even this question with decision-making. Sometimes the illusion of the self is seen but there are a few leftovers that need clarity.

Here are some arrangements we make to work together:
First I want to ask you to check out the Quote-Function and use it as I did here. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers. You can see here how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

During our conversation I will ask you a series of questions. For each, you will look at your own direct experience (DE) and answer with 100% honesty.

You mentioned that you read the LU book, so are you familiar with DE?

I point. You look. You tell me what you see right there.

It is vital that you really do each “experiment” I provide, answer each question and look at your direct experience — in the present moment — instead of relying on analytical thought or memory.

During this guiding, please avoid any other teachings, spiritual books, writings, YouTube videos or talks. If you have a meditation practice, feel free to continue with it as usual. It is best to avoid analyzing, speculation and debate. The mind will try to create distraction.

Please make an effort to write here every day or at least every second. This works best if we keep a constant focus on looking. If you are unable to do this on occasion, or you need more time for looking just let me know. I'll do the same for you.

Do you agree with this?
At these times, visually there is a very subtle change to how things look. Almost a subtle sense of detachment from the body as well.?
Are these changes now noticeable? Please describe how it is right now!

Looking forward to your answer
warmly Verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:37 pm

Hi Verananda
You mentioned that you read the LU book, so are you familiar with DE
The answer to this is yes. I studied Ramana Maharshi methods. It took me a while to really understand the depth of what it was I was looking for. But now for sometime I have been finding nothing. Although I felt I was not moving forward.
After reading the book, it helped me understand more of what's needed and enquire more.
During this guiding, please avoid any other teachings, spiritual books, writings, YouTube videos or talks. If you have a meditation practice, feel free to continue with it as usual. It is best to avoid analyzing, speculation and debate. The mind will try to create distraction.

Please make an effort to write here every day or at least every second. This works best if we keep a constant focus on looking. If you are unable to do this on occasion, or you need more time for looking just let me know. I'll do the same for you.
Yes to the above.

Now I am finding a more prominent stillness. I can start getting lost in thought patterns, notice this fairly quickly and bring myself back into focus. The thoughts then decapitate bringing a relaxed calmness. It's hard to explain exactly. There is little movement in the mind at these times.

The "me" mind is still very much there but there is this definite happening as described above. I get a little concerned I will lose it, if it is the start of a change?

Hope this all makes sense?

Kindest regards
Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:51 am

Hi Billy,

thank you for sharing this.
But now for sometime I have been finding nothing.
One thought pattern that I get caught up in and creates confusion is although I can't find anything behind the thought of "I".
Could it be that there is nothing behind?
That this "I" is nothing more than a thought as you already see?
And the thought pattern is just a thought pattern, nothing more? nothing special?

Let's begin by having a deeper look at your expectations:
How would you know that you are "moving forward"?
What do you expect to happen as a result of this Guiding?
What do you want not to happen?
What are you hoping for?
Please make a list of the things that should be different (that weren't covered in the first 3 questions).

You mentioned some of this in your introduction, but please take some time to reflect this a bit deeper and share what comes up.

LU Guiding is about seeing through the illusion of a seperate self, including the illusion of making decisions, free will, having control etc (and we will have a deeper look to this together) .... It is not about reaching a specific state of mind, calm the mind, kill old thought patters nor change anything ....
What comes up when you read this?
Please share everything that comes up ....


looking forward to your answer
love
verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:06 pm

Hi Verananda

I will try to be as open as possible
And the thought pattern is just a thought pattern, nothing more? nothing special?
When I realise that I have a thought stream happening. Then start to look into this I am seeing this more frequently and easier.
How would you know that you are "moving forward"?

Noticing that I have these streams of thoughts happening more frequently, which would allow me to enquire and look behind the thoughts.
What do you expect to happen as a result of this Guiding?
Some kind of validation that I am on the right track. When I first wrote to you I was looking for the path through the gate. Perhaps now I feel I might be seeing the way.

What do you want not to happen?
Making progress only to fall back into the illusion of mind. But strangely I don't feel this is possible as this too is only a thought. Nothing more.
What are you hoping for?
Until I wrote to you I had this idea that enlightenment was going to be so profound that I wouldn't be able to miss it. Now my expectations and understanding has changed somewhat. Now I am hoping that I am heading in the right direction and I hope to be on the path to liberation. I hope to feel the oneness that is spoken of.

LU Guiding is about seeing through the illusion of a seperate self, including the illusion of making decisions, free will, having control etc.
This area I find hard to grasp. How can Making decisions be illusionary? E.g. If a job offer comes up, is it not the seperate self that has to make that decision if you take the job or not? Do you not use the mind to lay pros and cons against it? If I look back on this life I have had so far, is it not decisions on the choices I have had put in front of me that's lead me to where I am now? Yes life's happening by itself and we have no control on a certain aspect, but certain choices can lead you down different paths?
It is not about reaching a specific state of mind, calm the mind, kill old thought patters nor change anything
This is a bit of a newbie to me as all the teachings I have read. The videos i have watched talk of stillness, destroying the ego etc. Its Taught that it's in stillness that the Divine shines through?

Thanks again Verananda. Much appreciation for your time

Love
Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:27 pm

Hi Billy,

thank you for your openess, thats a good basis for our work together!
Making progress only to fall back into the illusion of mind. But strangely I don't feel this is possible as this too is only a thought. Nothing more.
Yes thats right, its nothing more than a thought.
This is a bit of a newbie to me as all the teachings I have read. The videos i have watched talk of stillness, destroying the ego etc. Its Taught that it's in stillness that the Divine shines through?
There is much talk about awakening. And next there is this thought: I have to get this, I have to achieve that. Just one more I-thought in the spiritual version. What we do at LU is looking directly into truth. We look for this I, this assumed seperat self. So if we do find out, not by faith, but through real seeing, that there is no ego, no seperate self and that it has never been there, what can be destroyed ? For that it is important for our work together that you put all the books and videos and even the knowlege out of it beside for the time of our journey together. Start with the not-knowing curiosity of a small child. How does that sound? Are you ready for it?
This area I find hard to grasp. How can Making decisions be illusionary? E.g. If a job offer comes up, is it not the seperate self that has to make that decision if you take the job or not? Do you not use the mind to lay pros and cons against it? If I look back on this life I have had so far, is it not decisions on the choices I have had put in front of me that's lead me to where I am now? Yes life's happening by itself and we have no control on a certain aspect, but certain choices can lead you down different paths?
Yes, thats all right. There are a lot of thoughts in this processes that you described. Thoughts and actions that happen. The question is if we realy can find more. Something like a I, me, a seperate self that freely can choose and decide. We will check this out together if you want and we will do by looking into direct experience. Without analysing and so on. Just looking what is true. Do you agree?


ok, if so we will start and have a look at this "direct experiencing". It is the basis of this work.
When looking at the entire spectrum of present experience it can be described with the terms
the seen
the heard
the (bodily) sensed
the smelled
the tasted
and (observed) thought
Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
Wouldn't anything "else" be just a thought about such a thing?
If there is anything more, please describe what it is and how it is experienced!


love
verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:19 pm

Evening Verananda
For that it is important for our work together that you put all the books and videos and even the knowlege out of it beside for the time of our journey together. Start with the not-knowing curiosity of a small child.
Yeah, this is fine. I am actually taking a complete fresh look at this. I can really see where the "I" is the mind therefore just thought and not reality. This is becoming clearer day by day.
The question is if we realy can find more. Something like a I, me, a seperate self that freely can choose and decide.
This is where I need clarity. :)

the seen
the heard
the (bodily) sensed
the smelled
the tasted
and (observed) thought
Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
Nothing! Anything else is just a thought.

My issue here is when I have a choice to make. For example.
I have a couple of work opportunities at the moment, each possibility has it's own challenges to get them off the ground. Now I get caught up in the mind running various scenarios that each project will hold. Trying to decide if I should or shouldn't. This is all just thought. I realise this but does not give me clarity as to which decision is correct. Life throws many situations like this. How does one determine the correct path and allow life to flow? Surely having the opportunity to make choices is free will? It seems that these decisions and thoughts come from the same place as the illusionary "I" and this is where I am entangled.
Sorry Verananda. Thanks for your patience

Love Billy

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:21 pm

It seems that these decisions and thoughts come from the same place as the illusionary "I" and this is where I am entangled.
Tell me more about this "place". Is it located somewhere in your body? Describe this place and stay in direct experiece!

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:29 pm

It would seem they come from the mind located in my head/brain. Staying in direct experience causes a decapitation of all exposing nothing

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:38 pm

Thought can't make decisions. The thought of self, "I" me are of the same makeup of the decision making thoughts. These are thoughts that way up the pros and cons to help make decisions so that you do what you feel is right to make the me have hopefully a better life?

Damn stuck on this

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:48 pm

It would seem that everything that's created in ones life. House, job, spouse, kids, hobbies etc is created through thought. One then believes that there is a seperate "I" creating this but "I" is just another thought. What make choices then? Thought? Is it thought makes the choice and life is lived. Behind thought is nothing?

But I still feel "I" have a say on what choice "I" will make.

Feel like I get this then that thought comes up.... which is just a thought... hahaha

In circles here at the moment

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Verananda » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:38 am

Hi Billy,
Feel like I get this then that thought comes up.... which is just a thought... hahaha
In circles here at the moment
When you look, it ends up that you only find thoughts and nothing behind them, right?
That is why it is important to look again and again, so that the wrong assumptions can be revealed.

I have a nice exercise for you today. Take some time for it

Think of a number between 1 - 100.

(do it before continuing with reading)
..........................................................................

Did you choose which number would appear?
If so, why not the next one? Or the previous one? Or a completely different one?
Did thought choose the number?
Or was is it even already known, which number would appear, before it was clearly articulated in thought?

warmly verananda

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Turlough74
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Re: Understanding there not being a me and who makes decisiond

Postby Turlough74 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:06 am

Morning Verananda

So I picked the number 65. Or I should say the number 65 appeared in thought.
I don't know why it was that number. I read what you asked and this number appeared in thought. Thought deliberated on it, deciding if that was the number thought wanted to choose and in the end thought choose this number.
Or was is it even already known, which number would appear, before it was clearly articulated in thought?
The number appeared. Surely the thought has to appear in thought for the knower to know. Prior to thought is nothing?


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