Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
apmfree
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby apmfree » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:00 pm

Hi Tim,
Keep looking at those things some more. Look deeply. Write back what is seen.
I’ve been looking deeper and here’s what’s come up…

TIME

I realized that there’s only the present moment. The past is but a memory (thoughts) and the future is of course only thoughts!

The past being composed of only memories is no more real than the imaginary ‘I’. It serves a purpose to function in this experience, but cannot be considered *real* in any true sense.

Now it makes sense why all looking must be done from direct present moment experience. Using any past knowledge is relying on memories (thoughts), and the narrative created by the mind (more thoughts!).

There are the very thoughts that had entranced us into believing we’re a separate self! They cannot help free us from the trance. The unreal does not point to the real.

AWARENESS

The next thing I investigated was ‘awareness’. What is this awareness that is aware of all of this: the seeing with no seer, the hearing with no hearer, the thinking with no thinker, etc? What is this awareness that is aware of life unfolding.

We know that this awareness is not a separate self with a free will. That’s been clearly seen.

And we know that there is only 1 thing: life unfolding.

Then came the recognition that awareness can ONLY be this 1 thing. The formless is the form! I finally get it! :-)

I am not this food body, but rather I am the whole experience. I am EVERYTHING! (mind blown, again!)

Perceptually, the experience of being the universe is not showing up yet. I just get it at an intellectual level.

That being said I’ve experience a significant deepening into the experience of no-self through this exchange. There’s a persistent sense of non-duality, and much stronger non-doership. Thanks for this. Let’s keep going! :)

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 751
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby gondwana » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:38 am

I realized that there’s only the present moment. The past is but a memory (thoughts) and the future is of course only thoughts!
Bingo! And where do thoughts of past and thoughts of future occur? Where are they experienced? In the present moment! ;)
The past being composed of only memories is no more real than the imaginary ‘I’. It serves a purpose to function in this experience, but cannot be considered *real* in any true sense.
Indeed, very clearly seen.
Now it makes sense why all looking must be done from direct present moment experience. Using any past knowledge is relying on memories (thoughts), and the narrative created by the mind (more thoughts!).

There are the very thoughts that had entranced us into believing we’re a separate self! They cannot help free us from the trance. The unreal does not point to the real.
Yes, precisely.
Then came the recognition that awareness can ONLY be this 1 thing. The formless is the form! I finally get it! :-)

I am not this food body, but rather I am the whole experience. I am EVERYTHING! (mind blown, again!)
Exactly :). This is nonduality. There cannot BE two things - there is only ONE thing. Therefore it (you) is everything.
Perceptually, the experience of being the universe is not showing up yet. I just get it at an intellectual level.
Take care here, with expectations. Like all other experiences had so far on this "spiritual" journey, when have ANY of those actual experiences turned out to be as expected? Before the experience has been had, we cannot know what it will be like. So our expectations are always wrong.

Check that there is not some expectation of how "being the universe" is expected to feel. If there is an expectation, it will be incorrect, and will be blocking from seeing what that experience REALLY is like when it arises (or it may have already arisen but not noticed due to expectations).
That being said I’ve experience a significant deepening into the experience of no-self through this exchange. There’s a persistent sense of non-duality, and much stronger non-doership. Thanks for this. Let’s keep going! :)
This is good :)

Let's try this.
Sit and look out the window or be outside. Look at whatever scene is "out there".
Lightly bear the realisation, that "you" are this ONE THING.
Lightly bear the realisation, that those objects/trees/etc "out there" are this ONE THING.
Can this ONE THING be separated?
Can any dividing line separating "you" and "others" be found, right now, in direct experience when looking?
Where is such a line?
Can any dividing line be found at all?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
apmfree
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby apmfree » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:04 pm

Hi Tim,

I did not go outside. Instead I looked out my window. It's a bit cold in Boston today!
Sit and look out the window or be outside. Look at whatever scene is "out there".
Lightly bear the realisation, that "you" are this ONE THING.
Lightly bear the realisation, that those objects/trees/etc "out there" are this ONE THING.
Can this ONE THING be separated?
Looking outside at a tree in front of my house. Directing perceiving here's what comes up:

The mind immediately labels the sight of the tree as a separate object with certain circumference and height and even perceived weight. There's an immediate recognition that this apparent separation is based on thoughts (knowledge, memories etc). Like the "I" , "tree" is a concept and not real.

I mean, what is a tree. Is it the leaves, branches, trunk, roots ? It just a concept that helpful in navigating this experience But there no truth in it - there is no separate tree.
Can any dividing line separating "you" and "others" be found, right now, in direct experience when looking?
None at all. Even the labeling that the body is "me" (or "mine") has fallen off quite a bit. All illusions of separation are created by mind labeling "I' "me" "my".

When thoughts of ownership (this is my body, my arm, my thoughts, my pain, my feelings) are recognized as false, the idea of a separate me falls away. When appearances in awareness are perceived directly, and labeling of appearances (trees, books, desk) as separate objects by the mind is recognized as false, the idea of separate objects falls away.

Since there is no separate me, there are no separate other people or animals as well. They are appearances in awareness just as this body is an appearance in awareness.

With no separate me, no separate others (people and animals), and no separate objects, there is just 1 thing. Nothing is separate!
Where is such a line?
None exists.
Can any dividing line be found at all?
The only "line" that can be found is the contrast between the color of appearances in awareness. The keyboard is black and my desk is cherry wood brown. But that is NOT a dividing line. Just as if you're watching a movie, the apparent objects in the movie don't divide and tear up the screen. The screen is whole - it's is 1 thing.

The "screen" that is this wide open ever present awareness is ONE. It cannot be divided.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 751
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby gondwana » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:35 am

Beautiful :). All correct!

And what about a sense of agency?
Is there any entity here to make decisions?
How do things happen?

Can it also be seen that, just like time, space is also just a concept - an illusion?
When looking at the tree, what makes it “over there” and “X metres wide, Y metres deep” etc?
Does pure seeing itself, come with any labels stating the dimensions, and the distance?
Or, are these simply added by thought after, extrapolating from a few different “views”?
Can this be seen happening in the present moment?
The mind, constantly projecting a virtual 3D world into the screen...

Doesn’t pure seeing actually contain only a wash of colours?
But wait...aren’t the colours actually, themselves, also just labels?
Concepta?
Does pure seeing come with any labels of any colour at all, in fact?
Or is there only the indescribable experience of seeing colour, fleeting and impossible to communicate to another person.
How do you convey “red” to a blind man?
Are two slightly different shades of red, actually different colours, or both just “red”?
Who decides?
If the colours get less and less distinct, at what point do they become the same colour?
Is there some absolute ground truth, or just what we decide?
Only concepts.

So there you have it.
Emptiness of self; and emptiness of world.
Emptiness that is simultaneously also luminous and cognizant, self-knowing.
The Great Perfection
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
apmfree
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby apmfree » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:46 pm

Hi Tim,

Reality is becoming more clear. The false is seen as false! :-)
And what about a sense of agency?
Very little sense of agency is showing up. There is awareness of the body moving. Words appear out of the mouth. Thoughts appear. Breathing happens. But it is clear there is no doer, no thinker, no breather, no mover, no speaker, etc…

It is seen that the body labels each action and thought with an “I” to create the delusion of agency. “I get up”, “I think”, “I said”, “I brush my teeth” etc. As has been established, there is no “I”, never was. Just a thought pointing to other thoughts. This labeling even happens non verbally. Sneaky!
Is there any entity here to make decisions?
None at all. Decision are made. There is no “I” that decides. No decider that can be found. Decisions are just thoughts that appear, often followed by the apparent motion of the body.
How do things happen?
As spontaneous occurrences in awareness. Objects appearing, disappearing, and have apparent motion. Body is just an object in awareness, it actions are spontaneous. Thoughts appear and disappear.
Can it also be seen that, just like time, space is also just a concept - an illusion?
Yes, there’s a recognition that this experience is 2 dimensional. Like a film this 2 dimension ‘view’ of awareness is changing rapidly, creating the illusion of time. Like those illustrated books you flip through real fast that create the illusion of motion.

Why 2 dimensional? Because 3 dimensions is really just an illusion created by memory. When I see a drawing of cube, it is immediately recognized as a 3d object, from memories and knowledge (all thoughts!). Reality seen directly in this present moment (without prior knowledge and memory of objects) is 2 dimensional.

This experience is akin to a big screen with no edges, kind of like watching an IMAX movie.

When the eyes close even these 2 dimension disappear into nothingness. No dimension. No space.
When looking at the tree, what makes it “over there” and “X metres wide, Y metres deep” etc?
Memories and knowledge. ALL thoughts! Not what is directly experienced.
Does pure seeing itself, come with any labels stating the dimensions, and the distance? Or, are these simply added by thought after, extrapolating from a few different “views”?
None at all. Which is why there’s no distance, only the apparent appear of 2 dimensions in which contents appears and disappears. And yes the mind labels the the seeing with dimension, distance and all of that, all from memory and knowledge.

ALSO

Motion is an illusion. Driving and watching to the dentist office today it become clear that awareness was not moving, the scenery was just changing frame by frame! Awareness is still and ever-present in the here and now. It doesn’t not exist in time (which is an illusion) and it does not move through space (which is also an illusion).

Rapid changes in the scenery (contents of awareness) create both the illusion of time and motion. Like a Universal Studios ride where you site in the "flying" car (that only shifts up and down a bit) and you see a screen with a view of rapidly flying through a fantastic vista. The mind thinks you are moving fast and flying high. It responds with corresponding reactions within the body (vertigo and such!)
Can this be seen happening in the present moment? The mind, constantly projecting a virtual 3D world into the screen...
YES! Like a computer game.
Doesn’t pure seeing actually contain only a wash of colours?
But wait...aren’t the colours actually, themselves, also just labels?
Concepta?
Yes, objects that appear in awareness all have colors associated with them. The mind labels there colors: “red” , “orange” , “blue” etc. Labeling and sub-dividing this experience into concepts.
Does pure seeing come with any labels of any colour at all, in fact?
Or is there only the indescribable experience of seeing colour, fleeting and impossible to communicate to another person.
How do you convey “red” to a blind man?
Yes, without labeling this whole experience is indescribable. You cannot describe “red” to a blind man, anymore than you can describe a wooden cube block.
Are two slightly different shades of red, actually different colours, or both just “red”?
There’s a infinite spectra of colors. Labeling narrows down the infinite spectra into discreet colors.
Who decides?
Regarding the colors. It is societal convention. But that is based on memory and knowledge - thoughts!
If the colours get less and less distinct, at what point do they become the same colour?
At the point the the difference between the 2 shades can no longer be detected by the mind. In other words the mind can no longer separately label the 2 colors. Which means that labeling of colors is arbitrary. It's a concept created by the mind to split up this miraculous pure seeing into discreet bits it can understand and label.

Labeling of colors and objects (desk, lamp, monitor) by the mind break up this beautiful whole (just 1 thing) into separate concepts. Then add on the labeling around dimension and distance and you got everyone fooled into thinking we live in a 3 dimension world with "individual" objects + an "individual" self navigating amongst these objects, and other "individual" selfs.

From direct experience there is no evidence for any of this. It all a big sham created by the mind!
Is there some absolute ground truth, or just what we decide?
Only concepts.
Yes all decisions are based on thoughts, idea, knowledge. All concepts. Not pure awareness.

Only absolute truth seems to be is that there is awareness of this experience.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 751
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby gondwana » Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:40 am

Beautiful :) All exactly seen as it is!

Do any areas of doubt or unclarity remain?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
apmfree
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby apmfree » Thu Sep 27, 2018 10:35 pm

None at all. There life flowing + awareness. Nothing else. What else could it be?

Thank you so much! This has been an AMAZING experience. :)

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 751
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby gondwana » Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:44 am

It is all a pleasure :)

To finish off, we always wrap up with some standard questions to sample the experience.

Please quote recent examples of experience to illustrate where possible:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
apmfree
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby apmfree » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:44 pm

Hi Tim

First off apologizes for the belated responsive. The body has been experience a fever and sickness however this experience is just perfectly fine, in fact blissful. :)
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
None can be found. And no it never was.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.
The mind labels each action, thought, and feeling with ownership. i.e.. I walk, I think, I stress out, I believe, I could, I should, why didn’t I.

The mind also labels the body as “my body”, “my hands” “my foot” etc

The I points to other thoughts about an I. All these thoughts about “I” “me” “my” create a story about a character named “Amit”, who took certain actions, made certain decisions, felt certain ways, experienced joys and pains.

This entire story is created by the mind and only exists in the mind. It has no basis in reality. The character Amit has no basis in reality anymore than Santa Claus or Batman.

The original “I” thought, “I am” that began the story points to nothing. It’s just a thought (accompanied by a sensation).

The true reality that is seen directly is this: thoughts arise - there is no thinker, sensations arise, actions arise - there is no doer. Sometime feeling arise, but are seen as thoughts + sensations. There is no feeler. Works are spoken, there is no speaker.

There is awareness of all that appears, through this awareness there seems to be a body always present (with no head!). This body operates on it own just like all other content in awareness. It is not separate from it, other than labeling by the mind saying “this is my body, this is a keyboard, this is a monitor, they are separate objects with dimensions and weight”.
3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
The difference is profound. There is some conditioning that arises, and sometimes there is a brief forgetting of true nature of what is (triggering from the wife!).

There is a profound sense of freedom in letting go of the ILLUSION of control.

An 95% drop in self-reference thoughts and the ones that come up simply bounce off. There’s a lightness to this experience.

The weight of responsibility and worry have resolved as there is a settling in to just being and awareness of the beauty that is unfolding all on it own.

There is more energy showing up, more confidence, not caring what anyone thinks, a boldness and an aliveness to this experience.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Really looking at the mind labeling ownership and doership to an “I” and examining the source of that. Looking at both both explicit and implicit “I” thoughts.

Once the false was seen as false there was no going back.
5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
Who is there to make decision, or exercise free choice? No one or no thing can be found. Decisions are made, choices are made spontaneously.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
Actions, thoughts, and decisions arise spontaneous.

What is the source of this? God, the universe, consciousness? The 1 thing, the 1 reality that is this experience. There is no separate from this. It is the manifestation and the source. The form and the formless.
c) What are you responsible for?
There is no “me” to be responsible. Question does not compute.
d) Give examples from experience.
There is deep sense that actions arise on their own. Even as these words are typed, there is no sense of agency. It’s just happening.

There is the experience of the body moving about the house doing chores, but no sense that anyone decided to do anything. There is the experience of words being spoken, but no ‘speaker’ deciding what words would be spoken.

The world seems the same, but very different at the same time.

Actions, words, thoughts, all seem to arise spontaneously. There is a great freedom to that :)
6) Anything to add?
There is a tremendous sense of bliss and connection to this experience.

At first 'i' was not sure why this was arising, but on further reflection it is the arising of true being, without the guilt, need to control, self doubt, negative self referential thoughts, feelings of separation and isolation. All created by the false sense of a separate self, a doer.

This is the TRUE nature of this experience without being tainted by the iVirus.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 751
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby gondwana » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:17 am

Beautiful :)

I will show our thread to the other guides and see if any last questions remain, be back shortly.

Just a curious side question: what location has arisen now?
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.

User avatar
apmfree
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:40 pm
Contact:

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby apmfree » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:20 pm

Just a curious side question: what location has arisen now?
Labeling this experience as a 'location' is not really that important anymore. That being said, location 4 comes up.

User avatar
gondwana
Posts: 751
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 10:34 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Hello from Boston, looking to stabilize into 'no self'!

Postby gondwana » Fri Oct 05, 2018 1:12 am

Thanks! :)

There are no more questions! We have moved this thread to Archived, please check your private messages for a message from our forum admins.
Seen in the moment of looking, freed in the moment of seeing.


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests