ready to look

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hjj
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ready to look

Postby hjj » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:35 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand the self to be a construct. I understand that it’s possible to see this as true. I wish to move from understanding this to seeing this.

What are you looking for at LU?

Clear seeing of what can’t be unseen. External verification that this seeing has happened. The dissolving of doubt related to the above. A return/reclaiming of the system resources being used to sustain/maintain/defend the self construct.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Facilitation of focused looking. Reflection of process/progress. It appears, from the dialogues that I’ve read, that just entering into a guided conversation can catalyze the final stages of this nature of inquiry — or perhaps it’s the other way around!

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
19 years of seeking
numerous styles of meditation including
10-day Vipassna retreat
Have read Rude Awakening, Brutal Beginnings, and Gateless Gatecrashers

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Re: ready to look

Postby Bananafish » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:43 pm

Hi hjj. :) My name is Bananafish. I'm one of the guides here,
and would be more than glad to help you.


To start with, could you tell what you think would happen
when the self is seen to be a construct?


Please take your time and post when you feel you're ready.
Looking forward to your reply!


Bananafish

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Re: ready to look

Postby hjj » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:32 am

Thank you, Bananafish! Look-ing forward to this. ;)

When the self is seen as a construct, I think the following would happen:

-- a more immediate experience of reality (if experience is a stream of water, perhaps the construct delays the movement of that stream as what is perceived is filtered/re-routed through the construct before it is received by... awareness?)

-- a greater degree of what I imagine can be called flow, for the same reason. Say, for instance, that the self construct serves as an evaluatory/assessment mechanism, processing moments and experiences, governing how they're perceived. If that stage is removed, moments and experiences would seem re-unified as the one whole unfolding that they are, uninterrupted by construct-related interference.

-- a truer, more whole experience of reality and what is. If the construct has actions on our experience of reality such as those mentioned above, surely the consequence is a corruption of our experience of reality.

-- a shift in the sense of separation. I feel most separate from others, and the world, and life, and myself when I am wrapped up in my self, trapped in my head, lost in thought, caught up in the construct. I think, were I truly to see the self as a construct, it would no longer have the same power to hijack attention, I'd be more present with what is and the sense of separation would be much lessened.

Re-reading, I realize now that my first three answers weren't answering your exact question. They were presuming that if the self is seen to be a construct, the construct would de-construct, dissolve. So I guess that's the most precise answer, with the above 3 being what I think would happen as a result of that dissolution.

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Re: ready to look

Postby Bananafish » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:03 pm

Hi! Glad to receive your reply. :)


if the self is seen to be a construct, the construct would de-construct, dissolve.


Let's see this together.

Would you tell what "the self" is?
Please feel free to write whatever comes up.

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Re: ready to look

Postby hjj » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:43 am

Hi Bananafish -- thanks for your question, just wanted to acknowledge its receipt and let you know that I will be replying today.

Best!

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Re: ready to look

Postby Bananafish » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:24 am

Hi hjj! Yes, please take your time. :)

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hjj
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Re: ready to look

Postby hjj » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:35 pm

I love the offer to write whatever comes up -- removes the pressure of writing to be right.

The Self:

a collection of memories, attitudes, opinions
a point of perspective
a positionality
a focus locus
a repository of thoughts and feelings
an individuation of source
a leaf on the branch of the tree of life
a character, designed and drawn by past events
an outfit on a mannequin
a puzzle piece, defined by the its relationship to the pieces around it

thought I'd be rambling a little longer, but I seem to be running out of steam...

one thing I was wanting to share at some point (and since no more self-talk is coming forth, now seems like a good point) is the following wondering:
if there is no 'self', than what is it that's directing focus? what is being directed? I've experienced how shifts in attention/focus lead to shifts in experienced reality (in the law of attraction vein). If everything is vibration and frequency and resonance, than what's determining my frequency, my vibration, if not my 'self'?

which prompts another definition of the self -- a specific and separate point of consciousness

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Re: ready to look

Postby Bananafish » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:28 am

Thanks! Let me pick some points from what you wrote ...

a point of perspective

a positionality

a focus locus


Please look at the computer (smartphone or tablet) display before you.
Now, could you tell me from where you are looking at it, and what is there?
Is there a "you" in that direction? What do you see?


a repository of thoughts and feelings


Do you mean it's something like a storage?
What is that storage? How does it look like?
Can you smell, hear, or touch it?


if there is no 'self', than what is it that's directing focus? what is being directed? I've experienced how shifts in attention/focus lead to shifts in experienced reality (in the law of attraction vein). If everything is vibration and frequency and resonance, than what's determining my frequency, my vibration, if not my 'self'?


Does focus need its director?
What tells you that?


a specific and separate point of consciousness


And where is that "point?"

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Re: ready to look

Postby hjj » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:52 am

Please look at the computer (smartphone or tablet) display before you.
Now, could you tell me from where you are looking at it, and what is there?
I am looking at it from a position that correlates to the physical location of my eyes. My eyes are part of a body. They seem to be an entrance point for visual information. So what is there for sure is a body, and eyes. There's the sense now of the inverse of the "eyes are the windows to the soul" phrase -- that these eyes are the window to reality.

A window for whom?

Who is behind the window, looking out at reality?
Is there a "you" in that direction? What do you see?
On my side of 'the eye window', I don't know if there is anything or anyone there. I know that there's a receiving of visual information, I know that there is seeing happening, I know those things for sure. Something is seeing the computer. Something is looking through this body's eyes and seeing what is in their view.

When I look 'backwards,' in the other direction, towards where the 'see-er' would be... well, there's no little man living in the space in my head, looking out through the eyes, or at least, if there is, I can't see him.

Wait. Perhaps it's not a window at all, and there's no one looking through it. It's not a window, and there's not reality on one side and me on the other, but more like a screen, and reality is dis-playing across it.

looking back, and I can't see anything in that direction. There's nothing to see in that direction. There's no way to look in that direction. If there's no way to look, than how can anything be there to be seen?



Will respond to the rest of your questions tomorrow, excited to do so!

Hope you're well,

hjj

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Re: ready to look

Postby Bananafish » Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:31 am

Hi hjj. :) Great observations! Please take your time ... looking forward to your reply tomorrow.

Best,

Bananafish

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Re: ready to look

Postby hjj » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:44 am

Do you mean it's something like a storage?
Yes, just like a storage -- like a bank.
What is that storage? How does it look like?
Every new experience creates a new memory, which is then deposited into that bank. These memories can be triggered/activated/retrieved by subsequent physical experiences, but they can also be accessed voluntarily.

I seemingly can choose to go into that bank and remember, say, my first kiss, or my dog learning to swim -- memories in this case not triggered by active external circumstances, but ones retrieved at the behest of a thought.

So if I have the thought, "choose a memory to think back to, to use an example," where did the thought come from, if not from "me?" And if I then choose "the memory of my first kiss, "who made the choice of "first kiss" if "I" didn't?

The above seems like an example of directed focus and one of the things that suggests to me that focus has a director.
Does focus need its director?
What tells you that?
I feel like I directed my focus to memory and to thinking of what memory to choose, and then to choosing.

I've also had the experience of choosing to direct focus in different ways -- for example, to focus on appreciation, rather than criticism, or to focus on my breath, or to focus on a particular task. I believe I've experienced the practical results, actual changes, in my experience of life when I've focused on appreciation, results like feeling happier, magnifying/increasing the instances of the things being appreciated, and attracting more positive unfoldings in general. Because I've experienced setting the intention to direct my focus in this way, and then experienced observable results, it's suggested to me that there is personal will or choice.

But I acknowledge that I've grappled with this question regarding focus: if, say, I direct my focus to set an intention to raise my vibration, what came first, the setting of the intention, or the raising of the vibration? Could I even have the impulse to set that intention to raise my vibration if I'm at a lower vibration? Theoretically, if we only have access to thoughts that are a vibrational match to where we're at, then perhaps that thought wouldn't have been available. Perhaps something else is doing the raising of the vibration, and I'm just experiencing the result.

My law of attraction-based learning in this regard suggests that it's something that "I" have to do, though -- just like I have to look, right now, in this dialogue, just like I have to explore and answer the questions you've posed. These are things I'm focusing on.

Is something else directing me to do so?

Back to the storage bank for a moment.
Can you smell, hear, or touch it?
No. I cannot smell, hear, touch, taste, or see it. I cannot verify its physical existence. Nor can I get a sense of where it would be located. The idea that it's somewhere in the brain is just that, an idea, one that I reach for as I search for the answer to where it is.
And where is that "point?"
...I don't know. I guess it could be attached to this physicality. They seem to be linked in some way, in that this specific point of consciousness seems to be aware of this particular location, this room, this desk, this computer screen. It will move with this body as this body goes outside to walk the dog.

As I sit here looking for its location, I can't locate it, I can't say for certain that it's in my head. It feels like it right now, but I've also felt a sense of consciousness in my chest before, and now that I type that, the head sensation is subsiding and the heart sensation is beginning. There seems to be at least some association between this point of consciousness and this body.

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Re: ready to look

Postby Bananafish » Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:03 pm

So if I have the thought, "choose a memory to think back to, to use an example," where did the thought come from, if not from "me?"


Please sit on a chair doing nothing for 1 minute. Watch the thoughts coming and going.
Can you trace a thought back to where it came? In the same way, can you follow a thought to its
destination, if any?


Can you tell where thoughts come and go, without using any imagination or speculation?


And if I then choose "the memory of my first kiss, "who made the choice of "first kiss" if "I" didn't?


That is a very good question indeed. :) Why don't you investigate it yourself?
Please choose whatever memory and observe if you can see the "I" choosing it. How did you
perceive the "I" choosing it?


Because I've experienced setting the intention to direct my focus in this way, and then experienced observable results, it's suggested to me that there is personal will or choice.


Please focus on one of the letters in this sentence.
The very moment focus is set on a letter, is there a focuser separate from the focusing?


But I acknowledge that I've grappled with this question regarding focus: if, say, I direct my focus to set an intention to raise my vibration, what came first, the setting of the intention, or the raising of the vibration? Could I even have the impulse to set that intention to raise my vibration if I'm at a lower vibration? Theoretically, if we only have access to thoughts that are a vibrational match to where we're at, then perhaps that thought wouldn't have been available. Perhaps something else is doing the raising of the vibration, and I'm just experiencing the result.
My law of attraction-based learning in this regard suggests that it's something that "I" have to do, though -- just like I have to look, right now, in this dialogue, just like I have to explore and answer the questions you've posed. These are things I'm focusing on.


Hehe, lots of theories here, but I'm afraid we won't deal with theories here.
Nothing fancy; just the things we feel with the five senses, here and now.
It's even better that you throw away everything you've learned from something / someone and
start anew. Would you do it?


No. I cannot smell, hear, touch, taste, or see it. I cannot verify its physical existence. Nor can I get a sense of where it would be located. The idea that it's somewhere in the brain is just that, an idea, one that I reach for as I search for the answer to where it is.


If no imagination nor thoughts are referred to, is that "storage" still there?
What is it in reality?


As I sit here looking for its location, I can't locate it, I can't say for certain that it's in my head. It feels like it right now, but I've also felt a sense of consciousness in my chest before, and now that I type that, the head sensation is subsiding and the heart sensation is beginning. There seems to be at least some association between this point of consciousness and this body.


What tells you that it's more than any other sensations?
What links it to what you call "consciousness?"

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Re: ready to look

Postby hjj » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:56 pm

Please sit on a chair doing nothing for 1 minute. Watch the thoughts coming and going.
Can you trace a thought back to where it came? In the same way, can you follow a thought to its
destination, if any?
Thoughts appear instantaneously. I can't see them coming. Appear and disappear. They form, have a presence, then gone, like bubbles. I don't know where they go. The same or similar ones can come up, but though it may be the 'same' thought, it's a new expression, a new instance of it. But then that too disappears, and I can't even conceive of thoughts having a destination at all.

It seems to happen so fast, it's confusing now as to how I thought that I could be generating them, controlling them, guiding them.

Feel this strange panicky feeling like acknowledging this means that I'll lose the control that I don't have, and then I don't know what's on the other side. Lots of buzzing sensation in my neck and head and face.
Can you tell where thoughts come and go, without using any imagination or speculation?
No, I can't tell at all. Doesn't even seem like they're attached to the body.

My sick dog just got up off the floor, I watched her move across to her bed, a thought arose about her and then something happened, it's like the thought got hijacked by something, which then interpreted it, commented on it, felt like it corrupted it or something. Made it feel negative, introduced this negativity into the moment which wasn't there inherently. I'm not sure if that's clear or not, but I suddenly became aware that this is a process that has been happening -- a moment happens, thoughts come up, something 'handles' them and stains them (or maybe it's thoughts handling the moment), and then there's an introduction of emotional content that was not natively in the moment, it's a layer over top of the truth, or the actuality of whatever's occurring. This sudden awareness then led to a shock that the real is being snuck out from underneath me before I even have a chance to be with it, and is being replaced by a coloured version -- and then an anger that that's happening.

My sick dog got up, hobbled over to her bed, lied down in it. That's what happened.
Something came in and created a story about her emotional pain and upset and my pain and upset, and that story got layered over the moment so fast that I nearly missed the fact that that's not actually real.
Please choose whatever memory and observe if you can see the "I" choosing it. How did you
perceive the "I" choosing it?
Ok, thought about thinking of a new memory to think about ;)
a few options came up, at first I perceived that I was searching for them, but as I investigate it now, it's more like options were presented to me, and there was a settling on one.

Yes, tried again, and the subject for another memory just popped up. It felt like it just showed up, not like I found it.

And again. I think the content of the memory is being provided. I can't trace the path that "I" am taking to retrieve it.
Please focus on one of the letters in this sentence.
The very moment focus is set on a letter, is there a focuser separate from the focusing?
The focuser is the focusing.

An objection comes up: "but what about the moment of deciding to focus?"

The decider is the deciding.
It's even better that you throw away everything you've learned from something / someone and
start anew. Would you do it?
I've spent so much time considering the non-physical, the metaphysical, what is outside what we perceive with the five senses, and how that all influences this physical reality. My drive was to understand how this reality works; throwing away all of what I learned feels limiting.

But I want to know what is true, and actual, and real. I want a foundation that's solid; if I have that, if there's a seeing of unshakeable truth, do I really need to know anything else? I trust that anything/everything else that's real will eventually reveal.

So... yes. I would, and I will do it.
If no imagination nor thoughts are referred to, is that "storage" still there?
What is it in reality?
It could still be somewhere; if it is, I don't know where it is. I can't see it. I can't find it. It has no presence in this physical reality. It's no thing in reality. If no imagination nor thoughts are referred to, there's nothing to suggest that it exists at all.

And if the we're talking of this 'storage' as being the 'self,' then I guess the same could be said for it.

I feel stuck right now on the question, 'well then where does all of the content of that storage go? I can never see the storage, or the self, but the memories/ideas/etc. that would be contained in it are out there somewhere...'
What tells you that it's more than any other sensations?
What links it to what you call "consciousness?"
The link of these sensations to consciousness comes from their associations with thoughts. Thoughts seem to yield these shifts or manifestations of sensation. If there is the thought, "open my heart" or "be heart-centred," there's a movement of energy, a change in sensation. So the idea of a link goes: thoughts = consciousness, thoughts = sensation, therefore consciousness = sensation. Something like that :D

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Re: ready to look

Postby Bananafish » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:14 am

Hi hjj, some great observations going on!
Please keep up the good work.


Feel this strange panicky feeling like acknowledging this means that I'll lose the control that I don't have, and then I don't know what's on the other side. Lots of buzzing sensation in my neck and head and face.


Please keep feeling that sensation, and also please note any thoughts that come along with
it.


My sick dog got up, hobbled over to her bed, lied down in it. That's what happened.
Something came in and created a story about her emotional pain and upset and my pain and upset, and that story got layered over the moment so fast that I nearly missed the fact that that's not actually real.


And to whom does that "story" belong?
Is there a creator of story, separate from the story itself?


But I want to know what is true, and actual, and real. I want a foundation that's solid; if I have that, if there's a seeing of unshakeable truth, do I really need to know anything else? I trust that anything/everything else that's real will eventually reveal.

So... yes. I would, and I will do it.


Truth is not somewhere far away. It is present, here and now.
The only thing is to know it by observation, without relying on thoughts and images.
Then, as you've mentioned, truth will reveal itself. Let's keep on observing.


I feel stuck right now on the question, 'well then where does all of the content of that storage go? I can never see the storage, or the self, but the memories/ideas/etc. that would be contained in it are out there somewhere...'


Are memories and thoughts "contained" in anything, in any way?
What tells you that it has to be contained in something?


So the idea of a link goes: thoughts = consciousness, thoughts = sensation, therefore consciousness = sensation. Something like that :D


Ok, and thats exactly what "relying on thoughts for finding truth" is. :)
No. We don't do that here.


Look. Again, could you observe if "thoughts = consciousness, thoughts = sensation,
therefore consciousness = sensation" is true here and now, in this present moment?
Could you write only what you actually observed in that process?

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Re: ready to look

Postby hjj » Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:42 pm

Please keep feeling that sensation, and also please note any thoughts that come along with
it.
Happily! I backed off of it yesterday, as I wondered if it was a distraction or too 'new-agey', 'energy'-related for what we are doing. It's returning now as I type this.

Thoughts that come up with it: not as fearful as yesterday, more like "can it be simple enough to live in this present place?" The sensation is moving around my head and face and breathing has dropped and settled into even rhythm.
And to whom does that "story" belong?
Is there a creator of story, separate from the story itself?
Huh. I would have thought that the story was being created by the self-construct -- but that would mean a thought was creating a thought -- and I don't think that's possible. But the story doesn't belong to me, it felt like it was introduced, like it was inserted. What was 'scary' about it was that it became clear that normally I would claim ownership of that story, I would think that it belongs to me, I would buy into it as real. What was also 'scary' was the realization that stories like that are being inserted all the time, and I've been absorbing them as truth.

So then the thought was "aha! this is a creation of the construct! once i see through the construct and that dissolves, the stories will stop." But how can the construct create?

So the stories just arise, like thoughts. They are thoughts. They too just bubble up. No one is creating them. I'm not creating them. I can't identify a source of them or an entity that's writing them.

The habit was to think that I was thinking and thus I could be telling the story -- even if it's one that I didn't like, I could be telling it subconsciously. But what I observed was: something physical happened, a story arose about it, it was right away attached to as being my story or real. In this instance, because of the nature of the observation, I was able to observe that process; usually, it happens so fast that I would have missed the introduction of the thought/story, and it would have seemed all one with the physical unfolding.

So, thoughts will arise, stories will be told, and while I can read them, I don't have to believe them. After all they're just stories. It's not what was actually happening in physical form in reality.

The story belongs to no one! I don't have to claim ownership of it! Even if I did, or do, it's not mine; it's just a story, that I never sat down to write.
Is there a creator of story, separate from the story itself?
Well, it seemed like it just came forth. Like it just appeared, as the physical event unfolded. Because it's an 'old' story, one that's been around for awhile, and one that I've already claimed ownership of and assumed to be true, there's a resistance to boldly proclaiming right now that I didn't create it. No, I didn't ever sit down to write it, but it's been so linked with my experience lately that it feels like mine, because the thoughts it's comprised of have felt like mine.

So I need to be crystal clear about this. If thoughts just arise, if they are bubbles, if they appear without someone or something willing them into existence, then the original thoughts that are part of this story would have done the same, they would have just arisen. Whatever happened with them after, the assumption that they were true or real, they weren't of my making.

*feeling a mix of sadness and fear, feeling a loss of orientation, feeling like if I didn't think those thoughts, then what have I been thinking at all, the tingling sensation is still present up top but somewhat more diffused, and there's a sensation of emptiness or release in my chest.*

**wondering why, in the case of this story about my dog, that those particular thoughts arose, ones that feel so painful and upsetting, why couldn't they have been thoughts that were more positive, happier -- feeling sadness that so many moments with her have gone by with the assumption of that negative story as being real**

So, is this true -- no one creates the story. The story just is. It's no one's.

When I sit with this... I can't understand it. I can't understand how stories of such complexity and nuance can just appear with no creator and then have such an impact on 'me.' But I'm looking for the creator of that story and I can't find one -- though my mind tells me there HAS to be one.

*the sensation continues, I feel nervous, there's the thought that I shouldn't let go of ownership of my stories and thoughts, if I didn't think them, then who did, and it's my job to take responsibility for them and to make better ones, happier ones, ones that are 'good', ones that a 'good boy' would have. tears now.*
truth will reveal itself. Let's keep on observing.
ok
Are memories and thoughts "contained" in anything, in any way?
What tells you that it has to be contained in something?
I don't know if they are "contained" by anything.
That memories and thoughts are repeated, that what seem to be the same ones appear, suggests/supports the idea that they continue to exist or 'live' somewhere, and return to awareness at particular moments. I suppose that's a theory, and I don't know for certain that they are the 'same' thoughts or memories. It's a deduction.

Under observation... all I know, right now, all that I can observe, is that thoughts appear. Memories appear. Now I'm starting to wonder what IS a memory, anyway?!?
Ok, and thats exactly what "relying on thoughts for finding truth" is. :)
No. We don't do that here.
After a life of being largely lauded for my thought, this is quite the shift! A welcome one, at that. Feels liberating to just go with what's observed. Simple.
Look. Again, could you observe if "thoughts = consciousness, thoughts = sensation,
therefore consciousness = sensation" is true here and now, in this present moment?
Could you write only what you actually observed in that process?
Just reading that whole concept and trying to make sense of it feels daunting now. Seems convoluted, too many words, too many ideas. How could they all be linked? And even if they are somehow, now, in this moment, I don't care.

But for the sake of the exercise, let's see what's observed. Sensation... is. Thoughts appear. Consciousness... I don't know what to make of that right now. I don't know what to say that that is. I used to care so much about 'consciousness,' it was such a focus for me, a priority. Right now, it feels so amorphous, too un-real to be the subject of so much focus.

Sensation is something experienced in the body. It's specific, describable, locatable. I don't know it's relationship to thoughts (which are specific, describable, but not locatable). I always thought there was one. Maybe there's a relationship to action, to looking, to observing. The sensations I've been experiencing during this process have arisen in conjunction with looking.
Having a hard time saying that consciousness is specific or describable, or locatable. Seems like it could be defined in different ways by different people. How does that distill down to an irreducible truth?

Will look and observe this more today...


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