Understanding but no perception shift

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ElderPrice
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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby ElderPrice » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:30 pm

Hi Verananda😊

Wow!!

That was very interesting!
There was no conscious thought in my experience at all. In fact, I have no idea how I turn my hand. I'm laughing at the moment because I don't even understand such a simple act happens.
.Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
This was interesting because I had started the process of turning my hand already. There had been absolutely no choosing of a left or right hand! It all just started happening. No thought, no thinker, no controller of thoughts or hand.

In relation to choices then. A thought came to stop the hand turning over half way. It happened. But I didn't control that either. I don't know how this happens. OMG my entire body is complete out of my control!!! So I have no idea about what will happen next.. That is really funny!!

Such a simple excercise but very powerful. Thanks for that. That had really clarified something for me. So thoughts come and go by themselves and bodies respond to thoughts some how WITHOUT any controller. It all just happens.

Deepest gratitude
Barry

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby Verananda » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:18 pm

Hi Barry,

wonderful!
Such a simple excercise but very powerful. Thanks for that. That had really clarified something for me. So thoughts come and go by themselves and bodies respond to thoughts some how WITHOUT any controller. It all just happens.
Yes, thats it ....!
OMG my entire body is complete out of my control!!!
Was there ever an I that had control over this body (or anything else)?

Verananda

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ElderPrice
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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby ElderPrice » Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:30 pm

Hi Verananda
Was there ever an I that had control over this body (or anything else)?
I guess not, at least not over the body. I'm pretty convinced that this is true.

I'm still not sure about stuff like, choosing a career for example. If I extrapolate backwards, I don't choose my thoughts and don't control my body then I didn't control "my" life…???????

Looking forward to our continued conversation.
Warmly yours
Barry

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby Verananda » Wed Sep 05, 2018 9:51 am

Hi Barry,
Was there ever an I that had control over this body (or anything else)?
I guess not, at least not over the body. I'm pretty convinced that this is true.
good guess - but we have to know for sure! :-)
I'm still not sure about stuff like, choosing a career for example. If I extrapolate backwards, I don't choose my thoughts and don't control my body then I didn't control "my" life…???????
Does life need an I to control it?
What makes life beeing "my life"?

You wrote in a post before "Life is just living. No controller, life just doing what life will do."
What we have to do next is to look if there is realy a difference between your findings in this funny exercises and "real life" ...... Looking again and again will bring the certainty we need.

Who or what chooses where attention is payed to (next)?
To be honest,in my experience this seems like an involuntary experience AND a voluntary one. It seems like an "I" is making a choice to scan the body and can choose when and where to focus. Mmm, did " I" choose or is awareness noticing?

When meditating and I do a body scan it feels like l have pre chosen what is scanned, start at head and work my way down the body. But it's this actually a choice?? Or conditioned response.?
You're asking the right questions! And you will find out the answeres by looking again and again. So next time you want to meditate, watch like an hawk what realy happens.
Was there a thought "I go meditating now"? Or did it just happen?
If there was a thought, did you have any control over the thought that, when an how it came up?
Continue with that .... you sit down on your cushion ... does it need an I or does it just happen?
You start with the bodyscan ..... is there realy a difference to the "hand-exercise"?
Each time you find an I or this "something" or a "controller" look in DE!
What can you really find? A thought? A sensation? Anything else?
I honestly cannot find the "something"
It feels like it's located in my head but I cannot find the observer.
Look to this "It feels like it's located in my head" in DE. What is it? A sensation? A thought? What else?

I don't think the sensations needed an observer... Maybe there is just a perception?
Maybe ...! :-) Look again! :-) you are doing very well!

Love
Verananda

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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby ElderPrice » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:14 am

Hi V
Great to hear from you!
Thankyou too for your kind encouragement. I think I needed it as I thought my brain was going to explode :)
Does life need an I to control it?
What makes life being "my life"?
what an interesting question...okay, so life is just doing what life does ......... which includes 'me'. My mind races off to all the sociological and psychological paradigms to look for answers and more questions, this is what life does in this body. However, this does not help me look at my DE. I have spent time looking at my direct experience over the past couple of days. The more I look at different times the more clear this becomes.

LIfe does not need an I. This is not my life. LIfe is just living doing its thing without any input from an I.
If there was a thought, did you have any control over the thought that, when an how it came up?
This was very helpful. The thoughts about doing something are themselves out of my control. This is true in my experience.
Each time you find an I or this "something" or a "controller" look in DE!
What can you really find? A thought? A sensation? Anything else?
I have been practising this regularly in different contexts and situations. I cannot find anything... During meditation I have an image of me scanning my body internally, using my eyes, it "feels" like it's in my head due to my idea of looking from my eye position. Its just an image which is just a type of thought in pictures. It is no more real than an idea, feeling or a word.
I don't think the sensations needed an observer... Maybe there is just a perception?

mmm, this is interesting. Perceptions happen without an observer. There is just one event, hearing, not awareness hearing. In fact, listening is something we have no control over. This can be said of all sensations. They just happen ... no separate awareness/ perception only words interpreting the event after it happens...

This has been a very useful looking thank you so much for your help and your time so far.
:)
b

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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby Verananda » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:07 pm

Hi Barry,

great seeing! It seems that you realy take your time for looking and that things getting clearer!
LIfe does not need an I. This is not my life. LIfe is just living doing its thing without any input from an I.
Yes! So we will have a look back to one of your first posts:
I might stay as Elder Price or EP to help me deidentify with my "Barryness" :)
Tell me more about "deidentification"? What does this realy mean?
If deidentification happened, who did it?
This "Barryness" is it still there? What is it made of?
What is with "my live" ? Is it more than a lable ? a thought?
The thoughts about doing something are themselves out of my control. This is true in my experience.
Can you find anything else that is under your control?
I cannot find anything... During meditation I have an image of me scanning my body internally, using my eyes, it "feels" like it's in my head due to my idea of looking from my eye position. Its just an image which is just a type of thought in pictures. It is no more real than an idea, feeling or a word.
I have another funny exercise for this "it "feels" like it's in my head"-thing.
This is where we need pure LOOKING the most.
Just because its so much fun, hope you enjoy it:

Concentrate all your attention on vision in a relaxed, curious and joyful way.
Look at some thing out there. Acknowlede, that you can see it and it is a thing.
Then look down at the body. Acknowlede, that you can see the body, it's a thing.
After that, LOOK at the place where memory/thought says: "Here is my face".
Disregard all memory thought for a moment.
What can actually be SEEN at this place?
Please describe in your very own words!"


Love
Verananda

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ElderPrice
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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby ElderPrice » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:21 am

Hello Verananda!!!
again can't thank you enough for your time and guidance thank you.
Tell me more about "deidentification"? What does this realy mean?
If deidentification happened, who did it?
Mmm, deidentification was an idea that there was an "I" that needed to shed its identity. Barry was a real thing that needed not to be there any more. He was a sticky believable controller. I don't think that this applies anymore. There is no barry only life living and doing life. There was no need to address this deidentification, it happened through looking and realising that Barry (the controller) is just a thought, an idea.
Can you find anything else that is under your control?
No. Nothing else in control.
Concentrate all your attention on vision in a relaxed, curious and joyful way.
Look at some thing out there. Acknowlede, that you can see it and it is a thing.
Then look down at the body. Acknowlede, that you can see the body, it's a thing.
After that, LOOK at the place where memory/thought says: "Here is my face".
Disregard all memory thought for a moment.
What can actually be SEEN at this place?
Please describe in your very own words!"
mmm seems like my face may be linked to the black rimmed glasses I can see, I can see a pink thing usually called a nose. I cannot see my face from where I am. So conceptually, thought tells me there is a face ie nose + glasses = face, however, I cannot see it.

many many thanks
:)
B

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Verananda
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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby Verananda » Sat Sep 08, 2018 9:44 pm

Hi Barry,

things are gettig clearer - so lets have a closer look to one of the "tricky real life-questions" that we had put aside: You found out that there is no control of thought and next day you go to work and tell your clients: "Take care of your thoughts! If you produce too much negative thoughts you get stuck in your depression".
Tell me more about that! How is it seen now?
Feel free to share everything that comes up with this!
mmm seems like my face may be linked to the black rimmed glasses I can see, I can see a pink thing usually called a nose. I cannot see my face from where I am. So conceptually, thought tells me there is a face ie nose + glasses = face, however, I cannot see it.
Forget everything you know, even this "direct expiriencing"-stuff.
Try it with the curiosity of a small child just unpacking its birthday presents.
Do the whole set of instruction from the post before one more time.
What can you "see" where you can not see your face?
If you would know nothing, what would your absolutely innocent answer to this question be?

have fun
verananda

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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby ElderPrice » Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:24 am

Hello Verananda :)
Haha not quite having fun yet but trying :)
You found out that there is no control of thought and next day you go to work and tell your clients: "Take care of your thoughts! If you produce too much negative thoughts you get stuck in your depression".
Tell me more about that! How is it seen now?
Feel free to share everything that comes up with this!
Okay, I know that we do not control our thoughts. Therefore instead of telling people to take care of their thoughts, it would be more appropriate to help them not believe their thoughts. Notice them, don't judge, them allow them to be. You are not your thoughts (very similar to Acceptance Commitment Therapy actually) I still struggle with my current group therapy context because "I" am supposed to tell them what actions to take to reduce their suffering. This includes them making decisions to do things they have been avoiding e.g. socialise, reconnect, exercise etc. in order to eventually overcome their unhelpful thoughts.

To be honest, everything becomes a blurry mess in my head. I heard a physicist chatting the other day and I am wondering if it would be useful in this context. He stated that at a quantum level a "chair" is lots of space, atoms and electrons coming in and out of existence in a place of superposition. However, at another level, it is a chair, that you sit on, made of wood. Both of these statements are "true" but we need to use appropriate language to describe the level at which we are talking about and want to address. I think I am confused because of the language we have to use.

So if I talk about work again, at one level I completely understand that the people I chat to at work do not control their thoughts and is "life" responding as it does to certain genetic, historical, environmental cues without a controller. In my role as a therapist, I am saying what arises (out of my control) given "my" history, including years of study, genetics etc in a therapeutic context. At another level, it feels like I am orchestrating the interaction because I have to read case notes, prepare content before the interaction takes place. mmm maybe there is no I orchestrating, maybe planning is happening, no "I" just planning????? I will check this out tomorrow again when I go back to work.
Forget everything you know, even this "direct expiriencing"-stuff.
Try it with the curiosity of a small child just unpacking its birthday presents.
Do the whole set of instruction from the post before one more time.
What can you "see" where you can not see your face?
If you would know nothing, what would your absolutely innocent answer to this question be?
No face.......... almost feels like a space of nothing, I see nothing
if I knew nothing I think I would say that there is just seeing happening.

Hope some of this makes sense
thanking you for your kindness
b

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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby Verananda » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:59 pm

Hi Barry,
mmm maybe there is no I orchestrating, maybe planning is happening, no "I" just planning????? I will check this out tomorrow again when I go back to work.
yes, check it out! We have to know for sure!
after seeing through the belief of a seperate self often new "better" beliefs want to fill up this vacated space. be aware of this. we dont want to improve the beliefs here, we want to see through all of them!
Any ideas on how to improve things (in your job) are they more than just thoughts?
If you do not have control over our thoughts, what you say, what you do, then do you have any control over your work? if it changes or if it stays the same? Is it your decision?

If you don't have this control, why dont relax and expirience how life unfolds by its self?


To be honest, everything becomes a blurry mess in my head. I heard a physicist chatting the other day and I am wondering if it would be useful in this context. He stated that at a quantum level a "chair" is lots of space, atoms and electrons coming in and out of existence in a place of superposition.....
For this our other exercise is perfekt!
What can you "see" where you can not see your face?
so what you describe with the chair is a question of distance. you need a specific distance to see it as a chair. if you go closer an closer and closer ... no chair will be found. Instead of that there are atoms and electrons and space and some funny special effects.
In our experiment it is like doing the same with your blurry messy head at zero distance.
What you found is
No face.......... almost feels like a space of nothing, I see nothing
if I knew nothing I think I would say that there is just seeing happening.
so look again and tell me more about this "space of nothing"!
does it have a boundary? can you describe more about it?
And this seeing that is happening, is it outside or inside of this space of nothing?
Or in a different way?


looking forward to your answers
warmly
verananda

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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby ElderPrice » Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:18 am

Hello Verananda :)
yes, check it out! We have to know for sure!
after seeing through the belief of a seperate self often new "better" beliefs want to fill up this vacated space. be aware of this. we dont want to improve the beliefs here, we want to see through all of them!
What an excellent warning! That's exactly what this brain will do! Fill up with 'better' beliefs. Thank you!!
.If you do not have control over our thoughts, what you say, what you do, then do you have any control over your work? if it changes or if it stays the same? Is it your decision?

If you don't have this control, why dont relax and expirience how life unfolds by its self?
There is still a feeling of responsibility to the people I work with, so ideas of what to do in the sessions pop up, usually informed by experience, education and evidence. I still having a sense that a decision to choose the best possible solution to get the best outcome for the person I am working with is made.

But did an 'I' make that decision??? Phenomenologically it feels like a choice. Now whether an I makes it or not, a choice between various interventions is made. Is that just life doing what life does through this body mind? It certainly doesn't need a controller.

I am wondering if I am a bit anxious about not taking responsibility for my actions?
" Oh sorry you got punched in the nose, it's not my fault it's just life doing it's thing" ! However, since I have never punched someone in the face before, and I have never actually had an "I" controller my fears are probably unfounded.

In our experiment it is like doing the same with your blurry messy head at zero distance.
What you found is
No face.......... almost feels like a space of nothing, I see nothing
if I knew nothing I think I would say that there is just seeing happening.
so look again and tell me more about this "space of nothing"!
does it have a boundary? can you describe more about it?
And this seeing that is happening, is it outside or inside of this space of nothing?
Or in a different way?
Finding this super difficult. I can't find a boundary when eyes are closed. Have tried this excercise on many occasions now and I am not able to describe it an more than I have. Sorry. Can't believe it's so difficult to describe my experience.

It seems like the seeing is the space of nothing. There is only seeing - no space.

With deepest thanks
B

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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby Verananda » Tue Sep 11, 2018 11:34 am

Hi Barry,
There is still a feeling of responsibility to the people I work with, so ideas of what to do in the sessions pop up, usually informed by experience, education and evidence. I still having a sense that a decision to choose the best possible solution to get the best outcome for the person I am working with is made.
What can you find in direct experience? Please have a look to all of ther bold marked things ....

And one more to this: If you have responsibility for something, that means you have to be in control of it, is that right? no control -> no responsbility ?
But did an 'I' make that decision???
yes, exacty this is the question :-)
Phenomenologically it feels like a choice.
Please describe this in your direct experience!
I am wondering if I am a bit anxious about not taking responsibility for my actions?
" Oh sorry you got punched in the nose, it's not my fault it's just life doing it's thing" ! However, since I have never punched someone in the face before, and I have never actually had an "I" controller my fears are probably unfounded.
We see: These are just thoughts! Is a seperate "I" needed to think all this?
It is not the question if you take responsibility or not.
The question is whether you have a choice between the two.
Is there an I (or anything else) that has any control, any choice over all these thing?
Life is unfolding. So if you hit someones nose you get in jail (or in Psychiatrie if you use the excuse above ;-) or have to pay compensation. Does it need an I for that? Who or what is in control of that, if it happens or not?
Finding this super difficult. I can't find a boundary when eyes are closed. Have tried this excercise on many occasions now and I am not able to describe it an more than I have. Sorry. Can't believe it's so difficult to describe my experience.It seems like the seeing is the space of nothing. There is only seeing - no space.
Thats fine. There is seeing within this boundless space of nothing. wonderful.

warmly
verananda

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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby ElderPrice » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:23 am

Hello Verananda:)

I had a long laugh at your last response. :0 I work in a psychiatric hospital and I am sure that my boss would have a nice cozy locked ward for me if he read our posts.
There is still a feeling of responsibility to the people I work with, so ideas of what to do in the sessions pop up, usually informed by experience, education and evidence. I still have a sense that a decision to choose the best possible solution to get the best outcome for the person I am working with is made.

What can you find in direct experience? Please have a look to all of ther bold marked things ....
I looked at this all day today. There does not have to be an "I" to have a feeling of responsibility or a idea of what to do in a session. Good, I think I have that (I don't have it obviously :) but there is understanding happening). Today there were thoughts about what to do before the day started but while the session was on there was just a flow of interaction without a controller. stuff still got done.
Phenomenologically it feels like a choice.
Please describe this in your direct experience!
Okay, several ideas on what to do arise. each one is assessed and then one is chosen. There is a lot of thinking and assessing happening but I realise that there does not have to be an I making that decision. In fact why any particular decision is made is outside an "I"s control.
It is not the question if you take responsibility or not.
The question is whether you have a choice between the two.
Is there an I (or anything else) that has any control, any choice over all these thing?
I dont want to get off track or dive into the world of ideas but if this is true then can we punish a criminal for a crime if he had no choice?. It seems completely deterministic. However, in my experience, I do not think there is an I in control of anything.
Does anything else have a choice over these things?

I guess I am leaning towards life being in control but that is also just an idea??? maybe life isn't separate and in control but life just happens???

thanking you for your ongoing guidance(and sense of humour)
deepest gratitude
b

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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby Verananda » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:18 pm

Hi Barry,
Today there were thoughts about what to do before the day started but while the session was on there was just a flow of interaction without a controller. stuff still got done.
thats good! It is good to observe all this in daily life and at work. Sometimes, when we look with fresh eyes, we can even observe that there is an action, and then thoughts arise that make the action my actions and my decisions. but if we look closely, the order is the other way round. I'm curious if you notice something like that.
I looked at this all day today. There does not have to be an "I" to have a feeling of responsibility or a idea of what to do in a session.
Yes, no I inside. no control.
But it would be helpfull to look deeper for the direct experience in it. That means the seen, heard, the (bodily) sensed, the smelled, the tasted and (observed) thought. This will bring the main shift from understanding to realy seeing and can't be lost!
- feeling of responsibility
- ideas of what to do in the sessions pop up
- Phenomenologically it feels like a choice
Please describe this in your direct experience!
Does anything else have a choice over these things?
Good question. For the first step, we care about our assumed choice. Later on we can ask about others and find out if other person, other things realy exist. So if not, the question about their control would be obsolete. And after that we will see what remains. Thats the big roadmap and includes steps beyond the gate of LU Guiding :-) - but for now .... we will do another funny experiment:

"Think of a number between 1 - 100.

(do it before continuing with reading)
..........................................................................

Did you choose which number would appear?
If so, why not the next one? Or the previous one? Or a completely different one?
Did thought choose the number?
Or was is it even already known, which number would appear, before it was clearly articulated in thought?"

If it was fun, do it again! If not do it again a bit more relaxed :-)

warmly
Verananda

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ElderPrice
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Re: Understanding but no perception shift

Postby ElderPrice » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:31 pm

Hello Verananda 😊
Hope you are well.

thats good! It is good to observe all this in daily life and at work. Sometimes, when we look with fresh eyes, we can even observe that there is an action, and then thoughts arise that make the action my actions and my decisions. but if we look closely, the order is the other way round. I'm curious if you notice something like that
Yes there are actions then a story about the actions that regard them as my own. Exactly
. This will bring the main shift from understanding to realy seeing and can't be lost!
- feeling of responsibility
- ideas of what to do in the sessions pop up
- Phenomenologically it feels like a choice
Please describe this in your direct experience!
Feeling of responsibility seems to be a thought followed by sensations in the body.

'Ideas just pop up' are just thoughts arising from nowhere like any thought. No control no 'i' generating the thought.

It feels like a choice but there is no ' I' in this process and I have no control over the'choices' that became available or the final outcome that is chosen.
Think of a number between 1 - 100.
Yes this fun little excercise really makes it clear that I have no conscious control over any thought 😊

This is a lot clearer now thank you.

Warmly yours
B


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