Waking up is my greatest desire

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:52 am

Hello there Kay 😉
So let's break down the thought exercise and look at one thought at a time. Throughout your day, just notice thought when you do...keeping in mind the questions I have asked, and see what you find/notice.
Was able to relax more into the exercise today and ‘witness’ more of what was happening. Much of thought is commentary on what is happening and conversation with itself – it was noticed that conversing was happening as though there were 2 people conversing. Sometimes it seemed to sound like “my” voice; other times it’s an impression or very fast moving thought coupled with a mental image.
Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice of what thought you are going to think. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?
This one was difficult to look for but once it was seen, it has shifted the way “I” view thought. It was noticed that what I always believed was me ‘choosing’ a thought to say aloud in ‘my head,’ was always preceded by one or more thoughts “deciding” to think something – and it was much quieter than the so-called “chosen” thought, so more difficult to pick up. Thought is tricky – it can move fast so it is barely noticed. How do I create a thought? I don’t create a thought – thought comes before thought and that is all.
Think of a 2-digit number. How did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.
Wow, I did not choose the number – it appeared in thought, seemingly randomly. Thought preceded it to “pick” a number then a number came from nowhere. I did an experiment where I randomly thought of a string of 2 digit numbers in quick succession and noticed thought rushing in to ‘find’ a number somewhere else on the scale and trying not to repeat double digits or too many high or low numbers in succession.
I found that sometimes I only became aware of a thought/image right after it happened – especially the ones happening beneath the surface – as it appears that there are layers of thought.
Without being aware of a thought ie without seeing a thought, how can you know what the thought is? Don't you need to be aware of a thought to see it...to know that it has appeared?
Watching thought has made things clearer. Without the AE of thought, it cannot be known that thought has happened.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:55 am

Hey Lee,
So let's break down the thought exercise and look at one thought at a time. Throughout your day, just notice thought when you do...keeping in mind the questions I have asked, and see what you find/notice.
Was able to relax more into the exercise today and ‘witness’ more of what was happening.
That is good to hear :)
Much of thought is commentary on what is happening and conversation with itself – it was noticed that conversing was happening as though there were 2 people conversing. Sometimes it seemed to sound like “my” voice; other times it’s an impression or very fast moving thought coupled with a mental image.
Great observing…see if you can observe thought throughout your day, but don’t make it a chore because then it becomes a heavy task instead of a curious exploration.

Just to lighten it up a little and have a laugh, watch this clip! :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4qc34kYHdM
Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice of what thought you are going to think. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?
This one was difficult to look for but once it was seen, it has shifted the way “I” view thought. It was noticed that what I always believed was me ‘choosing’ a thought to say aloud in ‘my head,’ was always preceded by one or more thoughts “deciding” to think something – and it was much quieter than the so-called “chosen” thought, so more difficult to pick up. Thought is tricky – it can move fast so it is barely noticed. How do I create a thought? I don’t create a thought – thought comes before thought and that is all.
Nice observations Lee!
Think of a 2-digit number. How did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.
Wow, I did not choose the number – it appeared in thought, seemingly randomly. Thought preceded it to “pick” a number then a number came from nowhere. I did an experiment where I randomly thought of a string of 2 digit numbers in quick succession and noticed thought rushing in to ‘find’ a number somewhere else on the scale and trying not to repeat double digits or too many high or low numbers in succession.
You can do the same with picking counties or cities etc. But it sounds like you are having a little bit of fun with it, which is good.
I found that sometimes I only became aware of a thought/image right after it happened – especially the ones happening beneath the surface – as it appears that there are layers of thought.
There is no possible way to be aware of something that hasn’t appeared! And it isn’t hiding somewhere waiting to show itself.

Beneath what surface exactly, and where? Where is this surface, and what is this surface exactly for them to be the beneath of?

It is only thought that says that there is a monster hiding under your bed…but when you look can you actually find one? The same goes for thought. It is only thought that says thought is waiting somewhere to show itself! Can you be aware of a tree when there isn’t one to be aware of! Can you be aware of a sound, or a taste or a smell or a sensation if they haven’t appeared? Thought is no different. If you look carefully, it is only an appearing thought that says that there are thoughts underneath the surface that you aren’t aware of waiting to come to light! And it is only another thought that suggests that there are “layers of thought”.

I want you to choose an object in the room you are in, be it the TV remote or an ornament. Now can you describe the back of the remote? Are you actually aware of the back of the remote? Thought will appear saying ‘yes, I know from memory what the back of the remote looks like’, however are you actually aware, in this moment of the back of the remote or are you only aware of the thoughts about the back of the remote?
Without being aware of a thought ie without seeing a thought, how can you know what the thought is? Don't you need to be aware of a thought to see it...to know that it has appeared?
Watching thought has made things clearer. Without the AE of thought, it cannot be known that thought has happened.
Nice, really nice! You have done some great looking Lee :)

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:47 am

Hi Kay 😊
Just to lighten it up a little and have a laugh, watch this clip! :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4qc34kYHdM
That was brilliant and hilarious – thanks Kay :D
Beneath what surface exactly, and where? Where is this surface, and what is this surface exactly for them to be the beneath of?
Well, there was the erroneous “thought” previously from psychology programming, that there are subconscious and unconscious mind ‘below’ awareness. It is realised now from actually looking, that all is thought and there is no ‘surface’ or thoughts that are beneath it. A lot of programming to unpack here, Kay.
It is only thought that says that there is a monster hiding under your bed…but when you look can you actually find one? The same goes for thought. It is only thought that says thought is waiting somewhere to show itself! Can you be aware of a tree when there isn’t one to be aware of! Can you be aware of a sound, or a taste or a smell or a sensation if they haven’t appeared? Thought is no different. If you look carefully, it is only an appearing thought that says that there are thoughts underneath the surface that you aren’t aware of waiting to come to light! And it is only another thought that suggests that there are “layers of thought”.
This is huge. Things that have been so firmly believed to be true from education are really not. Any “belief” can be dropped, as it is only a thought perpetuated in the moment. There is confusion here though, about the existence of past trauma's that can be 'remembered' or re-experienced. How is this possible if there is no surface and only thought?
I want you to choose an object in the room you are in, be it the TV remote or an ornament. Now can you describe the back of the remote? Are you actually aware of the back of the remote? Thought will appear saying ‘yes, I know from memory what the back of the remote looks like’, however are you actually aware, in this moment of the back of the remote or are you only aware of the thoughts about the back of the remote?
I chose a picture frame. The only thing I am aware of is the mental image along with the thought “back of the picture frame,” as there is no direct experience of the back of the picture frame right now.
I will attempt to answer your previous questions about thought I was unable to answer before, now.
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Thought comes out of nowhere; thought goes to nowhere. They appear and disappear.
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
There is no control over which thoughts appear. Further examination of apparently ‘chosen’ thoughts leads to awareness of previous thoughts that led to the ‘chosen’ thought.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
“I” could not have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment.
Can you predict your next thought?
No, because thought comes up to ‘predict’ the next thought and that is the next thought.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No, because thoughts come out of nowhere – there is no ‘selecting from a range of thoughts.’ Thought can arise about a range of thoughts to choose from but that is thought selecting ‘pleasant’ from itself.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No, because it is thought that is thinking about ‘choosing’ not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts.
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No, because thought is thinking about ‘picking and choosing’ any kind of thought – not ‘me.’
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No, because “I” do not choose which thoughts appear. The thought arises in the moment and what arises in the moment cannot be prevented. Thought thinks about ‘preventing’ a thought.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No, because thought ‘thinks’ about stopping a thought in the middle as in, “I will stop a thought in the middle,” then thought ‘thinks’ a thought and stops in the middle. “I” do not have control over this.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
This one is a little more difficult to see what you are pointing at here Kay. In AE, some thoughts are grouped in a sequence, such as thought having a conversation with itself about a past event, or repeating a past conversation to itself, or making comments about an event that is happening now. Thought also jumps randomly from one topic to another with no apparent sequence or logic, though thought will tell itself this is “reality.”
Can a thought come from a mental image?
A thought cannot come from a mental image. Thought creates the mental image.
What do you mean when you say “thought creates the mental image”?
Actually, I don’t know if thought creates a mental image – mental images arise very quickly, often at the same time as the thought about them, so I cannot say if one creates the other.

Now the realisation is dawning that "I" am not thought as it was always believed. So who is it that is witnessing or observing thought, or aware of all this? This is what I cannot figure out.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:10 am

Hello Lee,

Such a lovely post to read; there was some calmness and sureness about what you were seeing for yourself by looking at what is being pointed to.
Beneath what surface exactly, and where? Where is this surface, and what is this surface exactly for them to be the beneath of?
Well, there was the erroneous “thought” previously from psychology programming, that there are subconscious and unconscious mind ‘below’ awareness. It is realised now from actually looking, that all is thought and there is no ‘surface’ or thoughts that are beneath it. A lot of programming to unpack here, Kay.
Nice! And yes, there is a lot of programming to unpack. That is what this exploration is about….unlearning what you think you know. As I mentioned when we started - there will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets unpacked in one big hit.
It is only thought that says that there is a monster hiding under your bed…but when you look can you actually find one? The same goes for thought. It is only thought that says thought is waiting somewhere to show itself! Can you be aware of a tree when there isn’t one to be aware of! Can you be aware of a sound, or a taste or a smell or a sensation if they haven’t appeared? Thought is no different. If you look carefully, it is only an appearing thought that says that there are thoughts underneath the surface that you aren’t aware of waiting to come to light! And it is only another thought that suggests that there are “layers of thought”.
This is huge. Things that have been so firmly believed to be true from education are really not. Any “belief” can be dropped, as it is only a thought perpetuated in the moment. There is confusion here though, about the existence of past trauma's that can be 'remembered' or re-experienced. How is this possible if there is no surface and only thought?
We will look at the idea of time and memory a little later on.
I want you to choose an object in the room you are in, be it the TV remote or an ornament. Now can you describe the back of the remote? Are you actually aware of the back of the remote? Thought will appear saying ‘yes, I know from memory what the back of the remote looks like’, however are you actually aware, in this moment of the back of the remote or are you only aware of the thoughts about the back of the remote?
I chose a picture frame. The only thing I am aware of is the mental image along with the thought “back of the picture frame,” as there is no direct experience of the back of the picture frame right now.
Great! So can it be known that there is a “back of the picture frame” in that moment or are there only thoughts ABOUT there being a “back of the picture frame”? Are the thoughts pointing to actual/direct experience or are they pointing to just thought fluff?

Here is a another simple experiment to highlight the difference between actual experience and the *stories* thought tells about experience.

Look at some object/s in the room.
Hold up the ‘hand’ so the objects are now covered.

Notice that a thought may say there are objects hidden behind the hand.

Are there actually objects behind the hand?
Do the objects behind the hand appear in actual experience?
If not, are those hidden objects actual experience, or are they just a *story* by definition?
Can anything ever be hidden and unknown?

Can you predict your next thought?
No, because thought comes up to ‘predict’ the next thought and that is the next thought.
LOL yes…exactly! :) I find it quite funny!
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
No, because thoughts come out of nowhere – there is no ‘selecting from a range of thoughts.’ Thought can arise about a range of thoughts to choose from but that is thought selecting ‘pleasant’ from itself.
Thought is not aware. The only thing that says thought knows something, is just another appearing thought! And it is only an appearing thought that describes thoughts as either pleasant or unpleasant.
Without a thought describing thought, how would it be known?

Have you ever looked at thought? Really looked at it? Does thought have a voice? Does thought have sound? Does thought have an image? Does thought have a sensation? Does thought have a taste? Does thought have a smell? Can you describe a thought?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No, because it is thought that is thinking about ‘choosing’ not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts.
Just to reiterate - thought can’t do anything. A thought is much like a piece of graffiti scribbled on a wall. Graffiti doesn't know the wall exists. It doesn't know it is appearing on the wall. It doesn't know whether its words are true or not. It doesn't know that it is saying anything. It doesn't know anything *whatsoever*. Similarly, a thought is just a bit of decoration appearing as experience/THIS/knowing. It appears. You are aware of it. But it knows nothing whatsoever about reality. And that is all there is to thought
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
No, because thought is thinking about ‘picking and choosing’ any kind of thought – not ‘me.’
Can thought choose any kind of thought? How does a though do this exactly? Or are thoughts simply arising and subsiding? Does thought know what thought will come next, or what thought preceded another thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No, because “I” do not choose which thoughts appear. The thought arises in the moment and what arises in the moment cannot be prevented. Thought thinks about ‘preventing’ a thought.
What you have done is transfer what you think you did with thought, to the idea that thought is doing it, and thought knows and does nothing.

Can you see that “No, because “I” do not choose which thoughts appear. The thought arises in the moment and what arises in the moment cannot be prevented. Thought thinks about ‘preventing’ a thought” is simply all an appearing thought?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No, because thought ‘thinks’ about stopping a thought in the middle as in, “I will stop a thought in the middle,” then thought ‘thinks’ a thought and stops in the middle. “I” do not have control over this.

Nor does thought have any control over this. Can you find anyone/anything that is controlling thought?

Where is the middle of a thought? Where does a thought begin and end?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
This one is a little more difficult to see what you are pointing at here Kay. In AE, some thoughts are grouped in a sequence, such as thought having a conversation with itself about a past event, or repeating a past conversation to itself, or making comments about an event that is happening now. Thought also jumps randomly from one topic to another with no apparent sequence or logic, though thought will tell itself this is “reality.”
And it is only an appearing thought that says “some thoughts are grouped in a sequence”. Can you see that the entire paragraph written is just appearing thoughts?

Thoughts appear in/as experience/THIS/awareness:

"How do I become free?", then the thought fades away.

Another thought appears:

"How do I discover THIS?", then the thought fades away.

Another thought appears:

"Who am I really?", and then fades away.

Another thought appears:

"I have a doubt about my practice and understanding", and then fades away.

Another thought appears:

"I am not happy", and then fades away.

Another thought appears:

"I am", and then fades away.

Another thought appears:

"Me", and then fades away.

Experience/awareness is like the sky where clouds (as thoughts) appear and disappear with no improvement or damage to the sky in which they appear. All thoughts are hollow without a core, just like empty clouds.
Now the realisation is dawning that "I" am not thought as it was always believed. So who is it that is witnessing or observing thought, or aware of all this? This is what I cannot figure out.
Lee, the SEEMING separate self is a thought, but what you actually are is not a thought. This exploration is simply about seeing what you are not. From this alone it becomes clearer to what you are etc. If after the realisation of no self you want to continue to dig to see what you are, there is another section of the forum where that guiding takes place.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:55 am

Such a lovely post to read; there was some calmness and sureness about what you were seeing for yourself by looking at what is being pointed to.
Thank you for saying so, Kay. There are shifts happening in the past few days that are bringing moments of bubbling up uncontained joy, fear/anxiety and clarity (though yes, there has also been a noticing also of the labels I place on sensation in the body).
I chose a picture frame. The only thing I am aware of is the mental image along with the thought “back of the picture frame,” as there is no direct experience of the back of the picture frame right now.
Great! So can it be known that there is a “back of the picture frame” in that moment or are there only thoughts ABOUT there being a “back of the picture frame”? Are the thoughts pointing to actual/direct experience or are they pointing to just thought fluff?
It cannot be known there is a ‘back of the picture frame.’ Thoughts are saying “of course there’s a back to the picture frame – it’s been seen before, so it’s still there.” Thoughts are not pointing to direct experience – they are pointing to past experience or memory of a past experience.
Look at some object/s in the room.
Hold up the ‘hand’ so the objects are now covered.
Notice that a thought may say there are objects hidden behind the hand.
Are there actually objects behind the hand?
It cannot be known directly if the object is behind the hand. Thought says there is an object there based on past experience of an object being there.
Do the objects behind the hand appear in actual experience?
It does not appear in actual experience.
If not, are those hidden objects actual experience, or are they just a *story* by definition?
The hidden object is a story told by thought based on ‘memory’ or previous direct experience – there is no actual experience of the object.
Can anything ever be hidden and unknown?
Anything ‘hidden’ and ‘unknown’ is purely thought telling a story.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
N
o, because thoughts come out of nowhere – there is no ‘selecting from a range of thoughts.’ Thought can arise about a range of thoughts to choose from but that is thought selecting ‘pleasant’ from itself.
Thought is not aware. The only thing that says thought knows something, is just another appearing thought! And it is only an appearing thought that describes thoughts as either pleasant or unpleasant.
Without a thought describing thought, how would it be known?
Ah, of course *DING!* Thought is not ‘choosing’ anything – it is providing the commentary on itself and categorising/labelling based on conditioning.
Have you ever looked at thought? Really looked at it? Does thought have a voice? Does thought have sound? Does thought have an image? Does thought have a sensation? Does thought have a taste? Does thought have a smell? Can you describe a thought?
Thought does not have an actual voice that can be heard. In AE here, there is perception of a thought voice based on memory of ‘my’ voice and conditioned language. If something is being read silently, an inner ‘voice’ is perceived – by who, I don’t know. Also there is AE of constant music playing (even in sleep) – the whole band is ‘heard’ clearly and loudly with all the intricacies of the music in place, though no band is really playing.
Thought does not have a sound, though sound is imagined. Thought does not have an actual image, though image is imagined. Thought does not have sensation, though sensation is imagined. Thought doesn’t have a taste, though taste is imagined. Thought does not have smell, though smell is imagined.
A thought is made up of memory of sound, sensation, image, taste and smell. It has no inherent properties of its own – all is imagined. A thought provides commentary based on previous perceptions and conditioned labels. Thought arises from nothing and passes into nothing before the next thought arises from nothing. Thought is nothing in itself. It is difficult to describe as anything more than imagined sounds/images.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
No, because it is thought that is thinking about ‘choosing’ not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts.
Just to reiterate - thought can’t do anything. A thought is much like a piece of graffiti scribbled on a wall. Graffiti doesn't know the wall exists. It doesn't know it is appearing on the wall. It doesn't know whether its words are true or not. It doesn't know that it is saying anything. It doesn't know anything *whatsoever*. Similarly, a thought is just a bit of decoration appearing as experience/THIS/knowing. It appears. You are aware of it. But it knows nothing whatsoever about reality. And that is all there is to thought
Ahhh – gotcha. Thought only provides commentary and labelling of other thoughts as ‘negative, fearful’ etc. Thought has no awareness of itself or anything else.
Can thought choose any kind of thought? How does a thought do this exactly? Or are thoughts simply arising and subsiding? Does thought know what thought will come next, or what thought preceded another thought?
Something that is confusing me here. If thought is simply arising and passing without knowledge of what came before, how does conditioning work if thought is perpetuating it? Who or what ‘remembers’ the conditioning for it to be continued by thought and fashioned into ‘identity?’
Can you see that “No, because “I” do not choose which thoughts appear. The thought arises in the moment and what arises in the moment cannot be prevented. Thought thinks about ‘preventing’ a thought” is simply all an appearing thought?
Yes, I see that now.
I will continue the rest of this tomorrow Kay – thanks for your very helpful responses. This is getting very interesting.
Lee xox

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forgetmenot
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:25 pm

Hey Lee...so far so good. I will respond once you have answered all the previous questions.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:58 am

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No, because thought ‘thinks’ about stopping a thought in the middle as in, “I will stop a thought in the middle,” then thought ‘thinks’ a thought and stops in the middle. “I” do not have control over this.
Nor does thought have any control over this. Can you find anyone/anything that is controlling thought?
No – a ‘controller’ of thought cannot be found, and this is what is confusing me at the moment. The illusion that “I’ am making thoughts happen is very potent, and very easy to slip into if attention is not being paid to thought/sensation.
Where is the middle of a thought? Where does a thought begin and end?
Yes – excellent point. I guess my conditioned reaction was ‘halfway through a sentence,’ but that is just grammar and ‘logic’ – “you must finish a sentence you start so it makes sense” kind of thing. A thought is just a whisper that arises that may make no ‘logical’ sense to the grammar trained – there is no beginning or end. It can be flashes of mental image along with a trail of commentary – some of it not in actual ‘mental’ words – just impressionsj.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
This one is a little more difficult to see what you are pointing at here Kay. In AE, some thoughts are grouped in a sequence, such as thought having a conversation with itself about a past event, or repeating a past conversation to itself, or making comments about an event that is happening now. Thought also jumps randomly from one topic to another with no apparent sequence or logic, though thought will tell itself this is “reality.”
And it is only an appearing thought that says “some thoughts are grouped in a sequence”. Can you see that the entire paragraph written is just appearing thoughts?
Ok, I get what you are pointing at now. Thoughts “grouped in sequence” is just conditioned learning from schooldays. Mind blown though that even our belief in ‘logical sequence’ is just another construct. Will need to sit with this one for a while, as the conditioning is very strong.
Experience/awareness is like the sky where clouds (as thoughts) appear and disappear with no improvement or damage to the sky in which they appear. All thoughts are hollow without a core, just like empty clouds.
Will do some meditation today purely to focus on “experience/awareness” witnessing thoughts appear and disappear.
Now the realisation is dawning that "I" am not thought as it was always believed. So who is it that is witnessing or observing thought, or aware of all this? This is what I cannot figure out.
Lee, the SEEMING separate self is a thought, but what you actually are is not a thought. This exploration is simply about seeing what you are not. From this alone it becomes clearer to what you are etc. If after the realisation of no self you want to continue to dig to see what you are, there is another section of the forum where that guiding takes place.
Gotcha. Thank you Kay xox

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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:23 am

Hey Lee!

You have done some good looking :)
Thank you for saying so, Kay. There are shifts happening in the past few days that are bringing moments of bubbling up uncontained joy, fear/anxiety and clarity (though yes, there has also been a noticing also of the labels I place on sensation in the body).
Really great to read!

Although there is a whole post here to respond to…now that you are noticing AE ie labels, sensations, thought etc…we can have a look together at fear/anxiety.

When ‘anxiety’ appears, close your eyes and do the following:

1) Look at the label/thought ‘anxiety’ itself. See the label/word ‘anxiety’ as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead

Does the label ‘anxiety’ know anything about anxiety, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘anxiety’ itself anxious?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is anxious?


2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘anxiety’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the anxious self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is 'anxiety' or that it is anxious?
Can you find anyone or anything within or behind the sensation that is 'anxious'?


If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious as you did in step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘anxiety’?
Can you find anyone/anything in the image/colour itself that knows anything about ‘anxiety’ or that can be ‘anxious’.


If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere (look where thought says your feet are, to the left and right, up above…look everywhere) and see if you can find anyone or anything that is anxious.

Did you find anyone or anything that is anxious?

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation and remember to breathe normally. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing (ie thought, sensation, colour/image) as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.
Let me know how you go.


The label ‘anxiety’is the AE of thought and not the AE of anxiety
The sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of anxiety
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of anxiety
The thoughts ABOUT anxiety are AE of thought and not AE of anxiety

So, is there actual experience of ‘anxiety’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT anxiety?

Label ‘anxiety’ is known and thoughts about ‘anxiety’ are known, however, is ‘anxiety’ actually known?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:00 pm

1) Look at the label/thought ‘anxiety’ itself. See the label/word ‘anxiety’ as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead
Does the label ‘anxiety’ know anything about anxiety, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
It was realised that the word itself is just a bunch of letters thrown together that made no sense when really examined. When the letters are focused on, they start looking like ancient Greek gobbledygook.
Is the label ‘anxiety’ itself anxious?
No, it is just a bunch of letters with no inherent meaning.
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is anxious?
No, but the thought of the word ‘anxious’ being anxious made me crack up laughing.
2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘anxiety’.
The sensation itself knows nothing about ‘anxiety’ (though thought is still labelling it ‘unpleasant’ here).
Look and see if the sensation itself is the anxious self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is 'anxiety' or that it is anxious?
NO, the sensation is just sensation when examined closely.
Can you find anyone or anything within or behind the sensation that is 'anxious'?
No, only sensation. I mentally placed the word ‘anxious’ over the solar plexus area where the sensation is felt and it did not make any sense as a label for the sensation.
3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.
Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘anxiety’?
NO, because it is merely a projected image - it knows nothing at all
Can you find anyone/anything in the image/colour itself that knows anything about ‘anxiety’ or that can be ‘anxious’.
The colour/image labelled ‘body’ knows nothing about the label ‘anxious’ or ‘anxiety.’
4) With eyes still closed look everywhere (look where thought says your feet are, to the left and right, up above…look everywhere) and see if you can find anyone or anything that is anxious.
Did you find anyone or anything that is anxious?
I did not find anyone/anything that was anxious.
When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it.
Will repeat these steps if/when the sensation arises again, thank you.
If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.
This has been something I’ve been practising since you first taught me about the label ‘anxiety’ – as sometimes it doesn’t just dissipate, particularly at work. Learning to sit with the sensation is very useful, thank you.
We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing (ie thought, sensation, colour/image) as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.
Let me know how you go.
It has been noticed that certain thoughts/images seem to trigger the sensation labelled ‘anxiety.’ Certain situations or thoughts about those situations seem to trigger the ‘anxious’ sensation to greater or lesser degrees. Situations where ‘self’ image appears threatened in some way seem to trigger the sensation, as do experiences arising which threaten loss of ‘self.’
So, is there actual experience of ‘anxiety’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT anxiety?
There is NO AE of “anxiety” at all.
Label ‘anxiety’ is known and thoughts about ‘anxiety’ are known, however, is ‘anxiety’ actually known?
No.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Sep 07, 2018 10:57 pm

Hi Lee,

Aah, if only everyone would look as thoroughly as you! Nice looking.
1) Look at the label/thought ‘anxiety’ itself. See the label/word ‘anxiety’ as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead
Does the label ‘anxiety’ know anything about anxiety, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
It was realised that the word itself is just a bunch of letters thrown together that made no sense when really examined. When the letters are focused on, they start looking like ancient Greek gobbledygook.
Yes, they are just images. It seems that they have some sort of meaning etc, but only because an appearing thought suggests this. However, it doesn’t matter what thought appears…thought knows nothing.
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is anxious?
No, but the thought of the word ‘anxious’ being anxious made me crack up laughing.
Haha! :)
2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘anxiety’.
The sensation itself knows nothing about ‘anxiety’ (though thought is still labelling it ‘unpleasant’ here).
Does the sensation itself or the word ‘unpleasant’ know anything about being ‘unpleasant’?

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘unpleasant’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘unpleasant’)…what is the difference between them?
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?
If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something that is ‘unpleasant’?

Can you find anyone or anything within or behind the sensation that is 'anxious'?
No, only sensation. I mentally placed the word ‘anxious’ over the solar plexus area where the sensation is felt and it did not make any sense as a label for the sensation.
Fantastic! Great idea 99!
We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing (ie thought, sensation, colour/image) as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.
Let me know how you go.
It has been noticed that certain thoughts/images seem to trigger the sensation labelled ‘anxiety.’ Certain situations or thoughts about those situations seem to trigger the ‘anxious’ sensation to greater or lesser degrees. Situations where ‘self’ image appears threatened in some way seem to trigger the sensation, as do experiences arising which threaten loss of ‘self.’
1. Put aside 10-15 minutes and sit quietly with your eyes closed.
2. Think of a story that brings up the sensation ‘anxiety’ - one that you can feel in the body but not too intense that it overwhelms you.
3. Then with eyes still closed, I want you to LOOK very very carefully to see if you can find/see an actual link between the thought and the sensation. You are looking to find if there is something that links the thought/story with the sensation.
4. If the sensation starts to dissipate/weaken, then bring the story to mind again until the sensation is felt, then continue looking to see if you can see/find a link. You are looking for an actual link that connects the thought/story with the sensation.
5. If you find yourself following thought instead of looking carefully for the link, just bring your attention gently back to the sensation and continue looking.

Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout your day, making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:12 pm

Hello Kay :)
The sensation itself knows nothing about ‘anxiety’ (though thought is still labelling it ‘unpleasant’ here).
Does the sensation itself or the word ‘unpleasant’ know anything about being ‘unpleasant’?
No, the sensation just is and the word ‘unpleasant’ is just a bunch of letters scrambled together
Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘unpleasant’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Definitely neutral and undefined
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘unpleasant’)…what is the difference between them?
The tingling in the solar plexus area is a little more pronounced, sometimes a lot more pronounced.
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?
No – it is all sensation. Labels are the only real division between them.
If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something that is ‘unpleasant’?
No, without a label, the sensation doesn’t know ‘unpleasant.’
1. Put aside 10-15 minutes and sit quietly with your eyes closed.
2. Think of a story that brings up the sensation ‘anxiety’ - one that you can feel in the body but not too intense that it overwhelms you.
3. Then with eyes still closed, I want you to LOOK very very carefully to see if you can find/see an actual link between the thought and the sensation. You are looking to find if there is something that links the thought/story with the sensation.
4. If the sensation starts to dissipate/weaken, then bring the story to mind again until the sensation is felt, then continue looking to see if you can see/find a link. You are looking for an actual link that connects the thought/story with the sensation.
5. If you find yourself following thought instead of looking carefully for the link, just bring your attention gently back to the sensation and continue looking.
Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout your day, making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.
This exercise was tricky, as it was difficult to bring the ‘anxiety’ sensation up at will but it did come up on its own a couple of times and the link was looked for. I couldn’t find a direct link between the two, though I noticed that they seem to arise almost simultaneously – it didn’t appear that the thought preceded the sensation. One seemed to ‘appear’ in the head area (thought) and one ‘appeared’ in the solar plexus/abdominal area (sensation).

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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Sat Sep 08, 2018 11:34 pm

Kay,
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
This one is a little more difficult to see what you are pointing at here Kay. In AE, some thoughts are grouped in a sequence, such as thought having a conversation with itself about a past event, or repeating a past conversation to itself, or making comments about an event that is happening now. Thought also jumps randomly from one topic to another with no apparent sequence or logic, though thought will tell itself this is “reality.”
And it is only an appearing thought that says “some thoughts are grouped in a sequence”. Can you see that the entire paragraph written is just appearing thoughts?
Hoping we can come back to this also Kay - it is very interesting and something "I" am not quite getting. Observation of thought has led to noticing that they do indeed arise and pass away, and that grasping onto and identifying with a thought is what leads to a feeling of a separate "I" moving through time and space. I have looked and have not been able to identify the thought that says 'this thought follows the previous thought in sequence.' - it is more like the thoughts just happen and they make sense and are in order. Can you help me here, Kay?
Much appreciated, Lee.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Sep 09, 2018 3:11 am

Hello Lee,
Do this exercise at least 3-4 times throughout your day, making sure to look very carefully.
Let me know what you find.
This exercise was tricky, as it was difficult to bring the ‘anxiety’ sensation up at will but it did come up on its own a couple of times and the link was looked for. I couldn’t find a direct link between the two, though I noticed that they seem to arise almost simultaneously – it didn’t appear that the thought preceded the sensation. One seemed to ‘appear’ in the head area (thought) and one ‘appeared’ in the solar plexus/abdominal area (sensation).
Yes…the sensation and thought seem to appear ‘simultaneously’ giving the idea that one creates the other. But it’s like the chicken and the egg scenario. Did the sensation appear before the thought or vice versa…in the big picture, it doesn’t matter.

Try the following exercise and see how this seems to work and it also helps to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, so to speak. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?


There is no thought AND sensation. It is only thought that divides experience into many different ‘things’ and labels them sensation, colour, sound, thought etc, and then further divides those into sub categories and so on. Experience is appearing as every ‘thing’ but is none of those ‘things’. There is simply soundcolourthoughtsmellsensationtaste which = experience itself. Thought is trying to describe experience and is labelling it sound, thought etc. Are the spots on a leopard separate and apart from the leopard? Or are the spots and the leopard one and the same?
And it is only an appearing thought that says “some thoughts are grouped in a sequence”. Can you see that the entire paragraph written is just appearing thoughts?
Hoping we can come back to this also Kay - it is very interesting and something "I" am not quite getting. Observation of thought has led to noticing that they do indeed arise and pass away, and that grasping onto and identifying with a thought is what leads to a feeling of a separate "I" moving through time and space. I have looked and have not been able to identify the thought that says 'this thought follows the previous thought in sequence.' - it is more like the thoughts just happen and they make sense and are in order. Can you help me here, Kay?
It is merely an assumption and what is an assumption? You are looking for the nitty gritty. Without the assumption that thoughts are in some logical, sequential order, how can this possibly be known? Just because a thought doesn’t appear in that moment saying that…what does that mean? Can you find the thought that assumes that there are galaxies beyond galaxies...it is simply assumed. In that moment the the story is appearing about assumptions. There is no 'why' things happen. Why? Implies meaning. How? Implies cause. Where? Implies space. When? Implies time. What? Implies thingness.

Watch the following clip. Without thoughts assumption, how is it known that what is being said is in some logical sequential order?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6WO5XabD-s

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:50 pm

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.
Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes, there is no link between the seeing of the hand and the feeling of the hand.
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
Yes
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
The feeling of ‘hand’ is separate from seeing of ‘hand’ in AE, though thought labels both ‘my hand.’
There is no thought AND sensation. It is only thought that divides experience into many different ‘things’ and labels them sensation, colour, sound, thought etc, and then further divides those into sub categories and so on. Experience is appearing as every ‘thing’ but is none of those ‘things’. There is simply soundcolourthoughtsmellsensationtaste which = experience itself. Thought is trying to describe experience and is labelling it sound, thought etc. Are the spots on a leopard separate and apart from the leopard? Or are the spots and the leopard one and the same?
Have been watching ‘thought’ and ‘sensation’ throughout my days, though it’s been noticed that when caught up in work or social activities, watching/noticing experience becomes more difficult and ‘self’ comes to the fore (identification with thought). Have noticed the degree to which complete identification with thought creates suffering – the labelling of sensations, identification with those labels and thought loops/stories create separation between ‘me’ and everyone else.
It is merely an assumption and what is an assumption? You are looking for the nitty gritty. Without the assumption that thoughts are in some logical, sequential order, how can this possibly be known? Just because a thought doesn’t appear in that moment saying that…what does that mean? Can you find the thought that assumes that there are galaxies beyond galaxies...it is simply assumed. In that moment the the story is appearing about assumptions. There is no 'why' things happen. Why? Implies meaning. How? Implies cause. Where? Implies space. When? Implies time. What? Implies thingness.
Watch the following clip. Without thoughts assumption, how is it known that what is being said is in some logical sequential order?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6WO5XabD-s
I cannot be known. Ok, I understand now, thank you.
Lee xo

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forgetmenot
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:36 am

Hey Lee,
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
The feeling of ‘hand’ is separate from seeing of ‘hand’ in AE, though thought labels both ‘my hand.’
Yes, nice observation. Here’s an interesting clip about this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be
Have been watching ‘thought’ and ‘sensation’ throughout my days, though it’s been noticed that when caught up in work or social activities, watching/noticing experience becomes more difficult and ‘self’ comes to the fore (identification with thought). Have noticed the degree to which complete identification with thought creates suffering – the labelling of sensations, identification with those labels and thought loops/stories create separation between ‘me’ and everyone else.
Yes, it SEEMS that when identifying with thought suffering appears.
What is it exactly that is “identifying with thought”?
Does the word (= thought) suffering contain any actual suffering?
Does the word 'suffering' have any meaning at all?


For something to be identifying with thought points to separation…there being a someone and a something ie subject/object split. We will look at that later…for now let’s have a look at ‘doership’ as there is idea here of being the ‘doer’. That there is a ‘you’ who is controlling what you are aware of.

To look at ‘doership’, we will focus on the sense of seeing only.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Without thoughts assumption, how is it known that what is being said is in some logical sequential order?
I cannot be known. Ok, I understand now, thank you.
Thought may seem to be a useful tool for negotiating the illusion of a 'person in the world', but it's still all conceptual knowledge about an illusory world - it can't give you any genuine knowledge about reality. Yet you know *everything* about reality by being *directly aware* of it.

Can a dividing line be found between experience and ‘experiencer’? In other words can a dividing line be found between the known and the known ie knowingknown?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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