Waking up is my greatest desire

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:41 am

Does the label 'fear' contain any actual fear?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear or fearful?
The label ‘fear’ contains nothing – it is just a construct. I say the word ‘fear’ to myself right now and feel nothing – just a word. When the sensation from deep in the pit of my belly rises, it is not the ‘word’ fear – it is a sensation only.
Do the thoughts about the fear contain any actual fear?
The thoughts arise and pass away – they don’t contain any actual fear – they are commenting on the sensation and trying to make meaning out of it.
Today I had another experience where emotion and realisation welled up within me as did the sensation I label ‘existential fear,’ – from deep in my belly. I felt into that sensation and it dissipated – there was nothing there. I felt it as a protective layer of the construct that is ‘me.’
Does the colour itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of colour?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that the colour appearing is that of an ‘apple’?
The colours don’t suggest they know anything about being an apple. The AE is of different shades of colour contrasted with colours around it. Just based on AE, it is not ‘known’ through the pure seeing that this is ‘apple.’ That is the brain’s interpretation of the colours.
I feel the confusion around this AE of ‘seeing’ is arising because my history of many Vipassana retreats, where I focused on ‘feeling’ sensations in the body with eyes closed. SEEING AE feels more difficult to separate from the brain’s interpretation of what it is seeing. I find myself staring at the colours of the apple, looking closely at the ways the colours blend and weave and form patterns on the surface, yet the brain still interprets the ‘apple’ shape. This will take some practise, I feel.
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is an apple, and that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of sensation?
The sensation is simply coolness and hardness with low frequency vibration, which does not suggest ‘apple’ – just sensation.
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sensation has anything to do with an ‘apple’?
The sensation after a while feels that it could be anything – the thought of ‘apple’ is gone.
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the taste of an ‘apple’? Does taste itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simply AE of taste?
The juice is squeezed out onto the tongue as I bite/chew and it produces a sensation the mind interprets as ‘sweet’ and ‘pleasant.’ Further AE of this is just sensation covers the tongue and is felt in the throat, that is not known to be ‘apple.’
Does smell itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of smell?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the smell of an ‘apple’?
The smell is very faint but sweet and fresh (as the brain interprets). The AE of smell becomes another sensation and it is not known that this is ‘apple.’
Does the sound itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simple AE of sound?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the sound is that of an ‘apple’?
The AE of sound is a slooow crunch that when listened to closely is a vibration and ‘apple’ is not known in this sound.
Does the label itself or the thought itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or are they just simply AE of label/thought?
The label ‘apple’ starts to make no sense when it is said over and over while looking at it and the association with what is known as ‘apple’ no longer makes sense. The label ‘apple’ is simply sounds strung together, overlayed with meaning for this colour, taste, smell sensation. It really does not know anything about apple.
So is there really actual experience of an ‘apple’, or what is actually appearing, what the actual experience is, is colour, sensation, taste, smell, sound, which thought then labels and describes as an 'apple'?
In other words, is an apple actually known or only thoughts about an apple are known?
The colour, taste, sensation, smell and sound are all that truly appear in AE. The label ‘apple’ and the meaning/interpretation placed on that word are constructs that block AE when applied. The only thing ‘known’ are the thoughts/mind constructs. AE cannot be known as it is directly in the present moment without preconceptions.
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?
An ‘apple’ cannot be actually known in direct experience – only the label ‘apple’ is known.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:19 am

Hello Lee,
Does the label 'fear' contain any actual fear?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear or fearful?
The label ‘fear’ contains nothing – it is just a construct. I say the word ‘fear’ to myself right now and feel nothing – just a word. When the sensation from deep in the pit of my belly rises, it is not the ‘word’ fear – it is a sensation only.
Yes, exactly. Lovely looking.
Do the thoughts about the fear contain any actual fear?
The thoughts arise and pass away – they don’t contain any actual fear – they are commenting on the sensation and trying to make meaning out of it.
Beautiful! Yes!
Today I had another experience where emotion and realisation welled up within me as did the sensation I label ‘existential fear,’ – from deep in my belly. I felt into that sensation and it dissipated – there was nothing there. I felt it as a protective layer of the construct that is ‘me.’
And without thought appearing saying “I felt it as a protective layer of the construct that is ‘me’”, how could this possibly be known?

Does the sensation itself know anything about a construct labelled “me”?
Does the sensation itself know anything about “protective layers”?
Can “existential fear” be found within the sensation itself? Can a “fearful self” be found in or behind the sensation?
Can anything be found in or behind the sensation itself?

Can this “feeling” know anything about “a protective layer”? Is it in the nature of a “feeling” to know anything, or is it simply an appearing thought that suggests this?

Does the colour itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of colour?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that the colour appearing is that of an ‘apple’?
The colours don’t suggest they know anything about being an apple. The AE is of different shades of colour contrasted with colours around it. Just based on AE, it is not ‘known’ through the pure seeing that this is ‘apple.’ That is the brain’s interpretation of the colours.
Lovely looking, Lee.

What is the AE of a “brain”?
I find myself staring at the colours of the apple, looking closely at the ways the colours blend and weave and form patterns on the surface, yet the brain still interprets the ‘apple’ shape. This will take some practise, I feel.
You are over complicating this. It is an expectation that the shape and colour of the apple is not then labelled as an ‘apple’, it has always been ‘identified’ as an apple – why would that change. We will look at the nature of thought shortly…but first we become clear about AE. What I am getting you to look at is that the actual experience of colour is being overlayed with thought as being an ‘apple’, when it is simply the AE of colour.
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is an apple, and that it knows anything about an ‘apple’? Or is it just simply AE of sensation?
The sensation is simply coolness and hardness with low frequency vibration, which does not suggest ‘apple’ – just sensation.
“Coolness, hardness, low frequency vibration” are just thoughts ABOUT the sensation itself. In other words, thought is trying to describe sensation and sensation is indescribable. Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is 'coolness, hardness or vibration"?
Without thought, without any preconceived ideas, how is it known that it is the taste of an ‘apple’? Does taste itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about an apple? Or is there just simply AE of taste?
The juice is squeezed out onto the tongue as I bite/chew and it produces a sensation the mind interprets as ‘sweet’ and ‘pleasant.’ Further AE of this is just sensation covers the tongue and is felt in the throat, that is not known to be ‘apple.’
So in other words, thought overlays AE of taste with descriptions and also suggests that the taste is that of an ‘apple’, when all that is appearing is AE of taste.
Does the label itself or the thought itself know anything about an ‘apple’? Or are they just simply AE of label/thought?
The label ‘apple’ starts to make no sense when it is said over and over while looking at it and the association with what is known as ‘apple’ no longer makes sense. The label ‘apple’ is simply sounds strung together, overlayed with meaning for this colour, taste, smell sensation. It really does not know anything about apple.
YES! Nice looking, really nice looking!~
So is there really actual experience of an ‘apple’, or what is actually appearing, what the actual experience is, is colour, sensation, taste, smell, sound, which thought then labels and describes as an 'apple'?
In other words, is an apple actually known or only thoughts about an apple are known?
The colour, taste, sensation, smell and sound are all that truly appear in AE. The label ‘apple’ and the meaning/interpretation placed on that word are constructs that block AE when applied. The only thing ‘known’ are the thoughts/mind constructs. AE cannot be known as it is directly in the present moment without preconceptions.
Hmmm…labels/thoughts are also AE. They are an appearance just like colour, sound, smell, taste and sensation. Actual experience is everything BUT the content of thought. Thought, in and of itself, contains no experience, if it did, then you would be able to taste the thought ‘sweet’.

So the word ‘apple’ is AE and is known, just as are thought about ‘apple’ are known, however is an ‘apple’ actually known?
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?
An ‘apple’ cannot be actually known in direct experience – only the label ‘apple’ is known.
Yes, the label ‘apple’ is known, as is thoughts about taste, colour, sensation, smell being an apple. Thought points to taste and labels it ‘apple’, so taste is known, as is colour, sensation and smell.
Is this clear?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:35 am

Today I had another experience where emotion and realisation welled up within me as did the sensation I label ‘existential fear,’ – from deep in my belly. I felt into that sensation and it dissipated – there was nothing there. I felt it as a protective layer of the construct that is ‘me.’
And without thought appearing saying “I felt it as a protective layer of the construct that is ‘me’”, how could this possibly be known?
You’re right – it’s a story constructed around AE. Learning fast here that stories of past experiences are not AE and only the product of a constructed identity based on passing thoughts.
Does the sensation itself know anything about a construct labelled “me”?
The sensation itself knows nothing about the construct labelled “me;” it is just sensation - that was a story created by thought.
Does the sensation itself know anything about “protective layers”?
The sensation knows nothing about protective layers – it is just sensation
Can “existential fear” be found within the sensation itself? Can a “fearful self” be found in or behind the sensation?
No – “existential fear” is just a label that has no inherent meaning. There is no ‘fearful self’ anywhere to be found within the sensation.
Can anything be found in or behind the sensation itself?
There was nothing behind the sensation – nothing at all. It arose and it passed away. Trying to find what was ‘in’ the sensation apart from a feeling of vibration. Nothing to be found. This is really helping with understanding the nature of AE, thanks Kay.
Can this “feeling” know anything about “a protective layer”? Is it in the nature of a “feeling” to know anything, or is it simply an appearing thought that suggests this?
This “feeling’ knows nothing about a “protective layer” – I see that now. A feeling knows nothing – it just is. The thought is what creates a story around the feeling.
The colours don’t suggest they know anything about being an apple. The AE is of different shades of colour contrasted with colours around it. Just based on AE, it is not ‘known’ through the pure seeing that this is ‘apple.’ That is the brain’s interpretation of the colours.
Lovely looking, Lee.
Thank you
What is the AE of a “brain”?
Laughing because the word “brain” sounds so silly. The word makes no sense when I really look at it. AE is of the head area with a pressure there and a feeling of thoughts emanating from there, but no “brain” is experienced actually.
I find myself staring at the colours of the apple, looking closely at the ways the colours blend and weave and form patterns on the surface, yet the brain still interprets the ‘apple’ shape. This will take some practise, I feel.
You are over complicating this. It is an expectation that the shape and colour of the apple is not then labelled as an ‘apple’, it has always been ‘identified’ as an apple – why would that change. We will look at the nature of thought shortly…but first we become clear about AE. What I am getting you to look at is that the actual experience of colour is being overlayed with thought as being an ‘apple’, when it is simply the AE of colour.
I see – and that is exactly what I noticed – that AE was being overlayed by thought of ‘apple.’
“Coolness, hardness, low frequency vibration” are just thoughts ABOUT the sensation itself. In other words, thought is trying to describe sensation and sensation is indescribable. Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is 'coolness, hardness or vibration"?
You are right – descriptions are still thoughts overlaying sensation. The sensation is just sensation.
Hmmm…labels/thoughts are also AE. They are an appearance just like colour, sound, smell, taste and sensation. Actual experience is everything BUT the content of thought. Thought, in and of itself, contains no experience, if it did, then you would be able to taste the thought ‘sweet’.
So the word ‘apple’ is AE and is known, just as are thought about ‘apple’ are known, however is an ‘apple’ actually known?
Right, so saying the word ‘apple’ while experiencing sensations of taste, smell etc is still all AE, but the thought ‘apple’ is empty and contains nothing. An ‘apple’ is not known.
Yes, the label ‘apple’ is known, as is thoughts about taste, colour, sensation, smell being an apple. Thought points to taste and labels it ‘apple’, so taste is known, as is colour, sensation and smell.
Is this clear?
Yes – thoughts overlaying sensations are known. Sensation alone is not known.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:54 am

Hi Lee,

Lovely post to read. You have such a great way of expressing very clearly what you notice/see.
Can anything be found in or behind the sensation itself?
There was nothing behind the sensation – nothing at all. It arose and it passed away. Trying to find what was ‘in’ the sensation apart from a feeling of vibration. Nothing to be found. This is really helping with understanding the nature of AE, thanks Kay.
Terrific! You are doing such a great job of looking to see it for yourself. Never take my word…always do the looking and see it for yourself.
Can this “feeling” know anything about “a protective layer”? Is it in the nature of a “feeling” to know anything, or is it simply an appearing thought that suggests this?
This “feeling’ knows nothing about a “protective layer” – I see that now. A feeling knows nothing – it just is. The thought is what creates a story around the feeling.
Exactly! :) The same goes for sound, colour , taste etc.
What is the AE of a “brain”?
Laughing because the word “brain” sounds so silly. The word makes no sense when I really look at it. AE is of the head area with a pressure there and a feeling of thoughts emanating from there, but no “brain” is experienced actually.
Yes! The label “brain” is AE of thought and not AE of a brain.
The thoughts about the brain and what it is, does and where it is located are AE of thought and not AE of a brain or location.
The image labelled as “brain” is AE of colour and not AE of a brain.

You’ve clued yourself in about the head, but let’s have a look at the idea of the head anyway.

Please IGNORE all thoughts and images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...

Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

You are over complicating this. It is an expectation that the shape and colour of the apple is not then labelled as an ‘apple’, it has always been ‘identified’ as an apple – why would that change. We will look at the nature of thought shortly…but first we become clear about AE. What I am getting you to look at is that the actual experience of colour is being overlayed with thought as being an ‘apple’, when it is simply the AE of colour.
I see – and that is exactly what I noticed – that AE was being overlayed by thought of ‘apple.’
Yes you did, and I wanted to reiterate this as it is important. :)
So the word ‘apple’ is AE and is known, just as are thought about ‘apple’ are known, however is an ‘apple’ actually known?
Right, so saying the word ‘apple’ while experiencing sensations of taste, smell etc is still all AE, but the thought ‘apple’ is empty and contains nothing. An ‘apple’ is not known.
Lovely….nicely expressed – very clear.
Yes, the label ‘apple’ is known, as is thoughts about taste, colour, sensation, smell being an apple. Thought points to taste and labels it ‘apple’, so taste is known, as is colour, sensation and smell.
Is this clear?
Yes – thoughts overlaying sensations are known. Sensation alone is not known.
What do you mean when you say “sensation alone is not known”? Could you explain what you mean please.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:50 pm

Please IGNORE all thoughts and images of ‘head’ and ‘fingers’ and just answer from actual experience. Close your eyes and take in a couple of deep breaths to settle the dust and keeping your eyes closed...
Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?
The sensation is present and the thought of “pushing finger on head” is present.
Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?
There is pressure there and a thought/image of ‘head’ between them. Image is there as well as thought in AE.
You are over complicating this. It is an expectation that the shape and colour of the apple is not then labelled as an ‘apple’, it has always been ‘identified’ as an apple – why would that change. We will look at the nature of thought shortly…but first we become clear about AE. What I am getting you to look at is that the actual experience of colour is being overlayed with thought as being an ‘apple’, when it is simply the AE of colour.
I see – and that is exactly what I noticed – that AE was being overlayed by thought of ‘apple.’
Yes you did, and I wanted to reiterate this as it is important. :)
Yes – thank you for that. I wasn’t clear on it and now I am.
Yes, the label ‘apple’ is known, as is thoughts about taste, colour, sensation, smell being an apple. Thought points to taste and labels it ‘apple’, so taste is known, as is colour, sensation and smell.
Is this clear?
Yes – thoughts overlaying sensations are known. Sensation alone is not known.
What do you mean when you say “sensation alone is not known”? Could you explain what you mean please.
By “sensation alone is not known” I mean that sensation without thought becomes just sensation without a ‘story’ and ‘meaning’ attached to it.
Just wanted to say thank you for putting all this time into helping me Kay. I really appreciate it 😊

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forgetmenot
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:45 am

Hello Lee,
Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?
The sensation is present and the thought of “pushing finger on head” is present.
Yes, so what is actually appearing is sensation + thoughts about a pushing finger on head. Can a head or finger be found in AE?
Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?
There is pressure there and a thought/image of ‘head’ between them. Image is there as well as thought in AE.
Does the sensation itself know anything about “pressure”, or is that thought once again trying to describe AE?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a head or a finger?

Yes, the label ‘apple’ is known, as is thoughts about taste, colour, sensation, smell being an apple. Thought points to taste and labels it ‘apple’, so taste is known, as is colour, sensation and smell.
Is this clear?
Yes – thoughts overlaying sensations are known. Sensation alone is not known.
What do you mean when you say “sensation alone is not known”? Could you explain what you mean please.
By “sensation alone is not known” I mean that sensation without thought becomes just sensation without a ‘story’ and ‘meaning’ attached to it.
Lovely, yes! It is simply sensation.
Just wanted to say thank you for putting all this time into helping me Kay. I really appreciate it
My pleasure :)

Let’s now look at the idea that thoughts are coming from the “head area” as it is generally believed that thoughts are coming from there. When we try to trace back the origin of a thought, it is often believed that it's coming from the forehead, because the attention automatically goes to the sensation of the forehead. Investigate this carefully as often as you can throughout the day.

Step 1.
Close the eyes, take in a couple of breaths to settle the dust and focus your attention for several minutes on the location thought calls the ‘forehead’. Put all thoughts to the side and just pay attention to what is actual experience.

Did you notice the sensation? It may be subtle when you first start to look, but keep your focus there and just become aware of the sensation.

Step 2.
Now I want you to keep your eyes closed and keep your attention on the forehead and start ‘thinking’….notice the thoughts.

Did you notice the sensation in the forehead that seemingly comes with the thinking?

Step 3.
Now open the eyes and notice thinking again for a few minutes. Then start to concentrate on an issue you are trying to solve, or a maths problem and notice what is actually happening.

Where does the attention go, when ‘thinking’ is happening?
Did you notice the sensation labelled ‘concentration’ that seems to happen in the forehead when ‘thinking’? This is what gives the idea that thinking happens in a head, more specifically, the forehead.
Let me know what you found.


So, the forehead in AE is sensation + mental image (of a forehead) + thoughts about a forehead and what it is, right?

Can a thought come from a sensation?
Can a thought come from a mental image?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:52 am

The sensation is present and the thought of “pushing finger on head” is present.
Yes, so what is actually appearing is sensation + thoughts about a pushing finger on head. Can a head or finger be found in AE?
There is no head or finger in AE – only the thought overlaying the sensation. When the finger is seen, it is just mingled colour along with the thought of ‘finger’ in AE.
There is pressure there and a thought/image of ‘head’ between them. Image is there as well as thought in AE.
Does the sensation itself know anything about “pressure”, or is that thought once again trying to describe AE?
OH very true haha. The AE of sensation itself knows nothing about “pressure” – that’s thoughts again.
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a head or a finger?
No, the image is the impression created by thoughts trying to describe the sensation – it does not suggest a head or finger.
Step 1.
Close the eyes, take in a couple of breaths to settle the dust and focus your attention for several minutes on the location thought calls the ‘forehead’. Put all thoughts to the side and just pay attention to what is actual experience.
Did you notice the sensation? It may be subtle when you first start to look, but keep your focus there and just become aware of the sensation.
Yes – feeling the sensation
Step 2.
Now I want you to keep your eyes closed and keep your attention on the forehead and start ‘thinking’….notice the thoughts.
Did you notice the sensation in the forehead that seemingly comes with the thinking?
Yes – thoughts arising ‘feel’ like they are creating sensation in the forehead and behind the eyes. Some thoughts seemed to arise from the throat area and move up to the forehead – as they do when speaking (and it was recognised that ‘thought’ creates this impression). This is where the “I” has always been felt. It was noticed that “I” seemed much more located around the head area, and the feet seem much further away from “I.” This is because it seems to be where sensations arise due to thoughts.
Noticing thoughts arise and pass away, “I” was searched for and only sensation was found.
Step 3.
Now open the eyes and notice thinking again for a few minutes. Then start to concentrate on an issue you are trying to solve, or a maths problem and notice what is actually happening.
Where does the attention go, when ‘thinking’ is happening?
I did an online maths game for this. It was noticed that the attention went ‘out’ to the game and the thoughts appeared to flow around the eye/forehead labelled area where the attention was flowing out. Well Kay, this explains why thought appears to arise around the eyes/forehead labelled area, as this is where attention is mostly flowing – to the “outside” world.
Did you notice the sensation labelled ‘concentration’ that seems to happen in the forehead when ‘thinking’? This is what gives the idea that thinking happens in a head, more specifically, the forehead.
That sensation was definitely noticed.
Let me know what you found.
In AE, sensation is experienced around the forehead/eye labelled area, as thoughts arise and problems are attempted to be solved through the ‘looking’ into the outside world. When eyes are closed, sensation is still experienced in this area as thoughts arise.
So, the forehead in AE is sensation + mental image (of a forehead) + thoughts about a forehead and what it is, right?
Can a thought come from a sensation?
Sensation + mental image + thoughts “create” the forehead. Thoughts are not created by sensation. Thoughts appear to be coming from nowhere.
Can a thought come from a mental image?
A thought cannot come from a mental image. Thought creates the mental image.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Sep 02, 2018 12:42 am

Hello Lee,
Step 2.
Now I want you to keep your eyes closed and keep your attention on the forehead and start ‘thinking’….notice the thoughts.
Did you notice the sensation in the forehead that seemingly comes with the thinking?
Yes – thoughts arising ‘feel’ like they are creating sensation in the forehead and behind the eyes. Some thoughts seemed to arise from the throat area and move up to the forehead – as they do when speaking (and it was recognised that ‘thought’ creates this impression). This is where the “I” has always been felt. It was noticed that “I” seemed much more located around the head area, and the feet seem much further away from “I.” This is because it seems to be where sensations arise due to thoughts.
Noticing thoughts arise and pass away, “I” was searched for and only sensation was found.
Excellent looking! It is great that you have seen how the idea of a ‘me’ who is thinking and speaking are formed.
Step 3.
Now open the eyes and notice thinking again for a few minutes. Then start to concentrate on an issue you are trying to solve, or a maths problem and notice what is actually happening.
Where does the attention go, when ‘thinking’ is happening?
I did an online maths game for this. It was noticed that the attention went ‘out’ to the game and the thoughts appeared to flow around the eye/forehead labelled area where the attention was flowing out. Well Kay, this explains why thought appears to arise around the eyes/forehead labelled area, as this is where attention is mostly flowing – to the “outside” world.
Yes! It's as you noticed it also seems that both 'visual sight' and 'mental images' are coming from the eyes, because when it's investigated the attention automatically goes to the sensation 'of the eyes', and at the same time the image 'of the eyes' appear with it.

So another SENSE of self is linked to the sensation 'of the eyes'.

But if you look carefully, what is the AE of ‘eyes’?
A sensation + a mental image, right?

Can sight come from a sensation?
Can sight come from an image (of the eyes)?

Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?
Can a 'mental image' come from another mental image (of the eyes)?

So, the forehead in AE is sensation + mental image (of a forehead) + thoughts about a forehead and what it is, right?
Can a thought come from a sensation?
Sensation + mental image + thoughts “create” the forehead. Thoughts are not created by sensation. Thoughts appear to be coming from nowhere.
Lovely! You can’t find where a thought comes from for one simple reason - it’s not a thing.

Good time to start looking at the nature of thought!

Here is a thought exercise. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Can a thought come from a mental image?
A thought cannot come from a mental image. Thought creates the mental image.
What do you mean when you say “thought creates the mental image”?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:09 am

So another SENSE of self is linked to the sensation 'of the eyes'.

But if you look carefully, what is the AE of ‘eyes’?
A sensation + a mental image, right?
YES – ‘eyes’ are a sensation in the ‘forehead’ area and an image of ‘eyes’ in the ‘forehead’ area. This definitely feels like where ‘mental energy’ is concentrated.
Can sight come from a sensation?
Sight does not come from the sensation of ‘eyes.’
Can sight come from an image (of the eyes)?
Sight definitely does not come from the image of ‘eyes’ – as this image seems to be located “in” the forehead area.
Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?
NO, the sensation itself does not create a ‘mental image.’
Can a 'mental image' come from another mental image (of the eyes)?
No, a mental image cannot “create” another mental image. It is not known where this ‘mental image’ of the eyes comes from.
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Ok, this exercise was a challenge as it is very easy to get caught up in a thought and start identifying with it; forgetting about the ‘watching’ of thought.
Thoughts appear out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Not at that exact moment. I could plan a surface thought in the next moment, such as ‘I am thinking now,’ but the thought could not be changed in the exact moment it happened. I found that sometimes I only became aware of a thought/image right after it happened – especially the ones happening beneath the surface – as it appears that there are layers of thought.
Can you predict your next thought?
Not if I am watching them without interference, no.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
If I am watching without interference, no.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
I am assuming this still refers to only watching thoughts without interference? If this is the case, no I have no ability to have or not have painful, negative or fearful thoughts
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
I can impose a thought over the top of what is being witnessed, though what is going on beneath the surface, I have absolutely no control over – such as the music going round and round constantly in every waking moment,
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Absolutely not. Trying to prevent a thought will surely bring it up.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
I noticed that there might be 2 or 3 thoughts in a row on one theme if there is enough investment in those thoughts, such as, ‘what am I cooking for dinner tonight?’ – and a few options might run through. Other than that, thoughts are like completely random spikes – some barely noticeable; others more prominent. It was noticed that if “I” became particularly identified by one thought stream, “I” would forget about watching thoughts and get pulled into the thought stream like getting sucked into a tornado.
Mostly it was noticed that thoughts are random, crazy and unpredictable – with no logical sequence or pattern – a bit like a gibbering monkey – all backed up by the loud soundtrack of whatever song happens to be running at the time.
Can a thought come from a mental image?
A thought cannot come from a mental image. Thought creates the mental image.
What do you mean when you say “thought creates the mental image”?
“Thought creates the mental image” refers to it being noticed that thought comes first, then mental image – though it can happen very very quickly.

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:11 am

Oh, not sure what happened in the above post ^^^. It seems that the quote function stopped working there in the second half.

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Freakyboo
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Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:34 am

So another SENSE of self is linked to the sensation 'of the eyes'.

But if you look carefully, what is the AE of ‘eyes’?
A sensation + a mental image, right?
YES – ‘eyes’ are a sensation in the ‘forehead’ area and an image of ‘eyes’ in the ‘forehead’ area. This definitely feels like where ‘mental energy’ is concentrated.
Can sight come from a sensation?
Sight does not come from the sensation of ‘eyes.’
Can sight come from an image (of the eyes)?
Sight definitely does not come from the image of ‘eyes’ – as this image seems to be located “in” the forehead area.
Can a 'mental image' come from a sensation?
NO, the sensation itself does not create a ‘mental image.’
Can a 'mental image' come from another mental image (of the eyes)?
No, a mental image cannot “create” another mental image. It is not known where this ‘mental image’ of the eyes comes from.
Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Ok, this exercise was a challenge as it is very easy to get caught up in a thought and start identifying with it; forgetting about the ‘watching’ of thought.
Thoughts appear out of nowhere and disappear into nowhere.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Not at that exact moment. I choose a thought in the next moment, such as ‘I am thinking now,’ but the thought could not be changed in the exact moment it happened. I found that sometimes I only became aware of a thought/image right after it happened – especially the ones happening beneath the surface – as it appears that there are layers of thought.
Can you predict your next thought?
Not if I am watching them without interference, no.
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
If I am watching without interference, no.
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
I am assuming this still refers to only watching thoughts without interference? If this is the case, no I have no ability to have or not have painful, negative or fearful thoughts
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
I can impose a thought over the top of what is being witnessed, though what is going on beneath the surface, I have absolutely no control over – such as the music going round and round constantly in every waking moment,
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Absolutely not. Trying to prevent a thought will surely bring it up.
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
No. Thoughts/images are very quick and by the time it's been registered, it's too late to stop in the middle.
It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?
I noticed that there might be 2 or 3 thoughts in a row on one theme if there is enough investment in those thoughts, such as, ‘what am I cooking for dinner tonight?’ – and a few options might run through. Other than that, thoughts are like completely random spikes – some barely noticeable; others more prominent. It was noticed that if “I” became particularly identified by one thought stream, “I” would forget about watching thoughts and get pulled into the thought stream like getting sucked into a tornado.
Mostly it was noticed that thoughts are random, crazy and unpredictable – with no logical sequence or pattern – a bit like a gibbering monkey – all backed up by the loud soundtrack of whatever song happens to be running at the time.
Can a thought come from a mental image?
A thought cannot come from a mental image. Thought creates the mental image.
What do you mean when you say “thought creates the mental image”
“Thought creates the mental image” refers to it being noticed that thought comes first, then mental image – though it can happen very very quickly.

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Freakyboo
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:32 am

Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:36 am

Oh, not sure what happened in the above post ^^^. It seems that the quote function stopped working there in the second half.
Will give it another go :)

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forgetmenot
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Location: Australia

Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:08 am

Hello Lee,

I would like you to do the following exercise several times before getting back to me. Then let me know how you go and then we will redo the thought exercise you just completed.

So here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close the eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them. Looking for the gap is a way to slow the thoughts, as the objective of this exercise is to observe each and every thought as it arises and subsides.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts.
Looking how they come and go.
And observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Freakyboo
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:32 am

Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby Freakyboo » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:23 am

I will do my utmost Kay. The soundtrack playing round the clock at full volume makes 'hearing' thoughts in any coherent fashion very difficult for me.

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forgetmenot
Posts: 5099
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:07 am
Location: Australia

Re: Waking up is my greatest desire

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:42 am

Hello Lee,

Let's simplify it...I don't want you to go into overwhelm. So let's break down the thought exercise and look at one thought at a time. Throughout your day, just notice thought when you do...keeping in mind the questions I have asked, and see what you find/notice.
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Not at that exact moment. I could plan a surface thought in the next moment, such as ‘I am thinking now,’ but the thought could not be changed in the exact moment it happened.
Describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice of what thought you are going to think. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

Think of a 2-digit number. How did you choose that number? Why not the previous number, or the next one? Do you know? If not, why don’t you know? If you are the thinker of thoughts then you must know how you create them. Repeat the experiment as necessary.

I found that sometimes I only became aware of a thought/image right after it happened – especially the ones happening beneath the surface – as it appears that there are layers of thought.
Without being aware of a thought ie without seeing a thought, how can you know what the thought is? Don't you need to be aware of a thought to see it...to know that it has appeared?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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