Newbie

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Anastacia42
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Re: Newbie

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:57 pm

Good morning!

Yes, to most of what you wrote.
But I can see there is some stimulus involved that directs me back to that task rather than a logical sequence of thoughts. So I might look back at a screen or glance at an email and then I will be doing the next part of the task.

My parents arrive tonight and are staying until Monday so I may be quieter than normal just so you know.
Where is this "I" thingy that is seeing something? Are you separate from the seeing of it? Really check.


"Some stimulus?" The idea of that is what? A thought? What have you learned about the content of a thought? Like, who told you that there was some thing called a "stimulus?" What is that?

Yes, I am getting really picky with you now. Pay attention to what you write. Write honestly what you see - what you ACTUALLY see - learn which things are made up. What is Actual/Direct experience? What is not?

This process isn't about sitting in silence on a meditation cushion away from the world, as you have noticed, so feel free to continue to do the exercises with - and even ON - your mother - or the appearance of some color & sound that someone told you was your mother. I'm serious here, you know?


Fruit Exercise

Have a piece of fruit handy, or something that you like to eat.

For the first couple of minutes imagine you are eating the fruit…..feel the sensations of chewing, the taste, the texture, the fragrance, hear the crunching sound that the chewing makes. Really enjoy the imaginary piece of fruit as much as you can.

Then for the next couple of minutes actually bite the fruit and see the difference. Experience the fruit with curiosity and dive into the sensations of chewing, swallowing, the sounds and the taste. Really enjoy the experience of actually eating the piece of fruit.

Then for another minute or so describe the taste and smell in as much detail as possible. Write about it here. What was the experience like?

After you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences:

1. Imaginary fruit
2. Real fruit
3. Description


Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Allybally
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Re: Newbie

Postby Allybally » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:59 am

Hi Stacy,

Its too easy to write lazily, and hard to get get over what I am thinking sometimes with language. But it is important that I start writing things properly.

I will try the exercise over the weekend, my mum brought me some apples from home so I will try it with those.

Over the last couple of days I have felt a bit different about things, I have started to understand the point of these exercises, and realise that I is the content of a thought like any other content of a thought and is not real. In fact it seems stupid to have ever believed that. I have felt a kind of peaceful numbness if that makes sense, in that I am not attached to things the same way but that also brings peace because you flow with things.

I still see a lot of I's in that last paragraph, need to work on that!

I still want to continue exercises, to see it more and also have lots of questions still.

Thanks,
Alan

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Anastacia42
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Re: Newbie

Postby Anastacia42 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:13 pm

Good morning!

Yes, good!
I have started to understand the point of these exercises, and realise that I is the content of a thought like any other content of a thought and is not real. In fact it seems stupid to have ever believed that. I have felt a kind of peaceful numbness if that makes sense, in that I am not attached to things the same way but that also brings peace because you flow with things.

I still see a lot of I's in that last paragraph, need to work on that!
YES! It *does* bring peace.

Rewrite that entire quote above without using "I," "my," "mine," or "self" in any form. You may have to change the structure of the sentences completely. It can be done without substituting some other word for "I" or if something truer to substitute is found that's good, too.
I will try the exercise over the weekend, my mum brought me some apples from home so I will try it with those.
Good. Enjoy it. Take your time, Savor the experience and the unraveling.

When you do, please refer to the previous post with the Fruit Exercise and answer ALL the questions, please. It will help.

Loving,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Allybally
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Re: Newbie

Postby Allybally » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:35 pm

Hi Stacy,
Where is this "I" thingy that is seeing something? Are you separate from the seeing of it? Really check.
This is just language, I have used 'I' for so long. This was referring to a thought anyway.
The idea of that is what? A thought? What have you learned about the content of a thought? Like, who told you that there was some thing called a "stimulus?" What is that?
In this case I had said about a stimulus directing me back to a task. What was meant was there was a thought that arose that linked what was being seen to the task that was being carried out. The mind connected the two and the thought suggested that what was seen was linked to what was happening.
I have started to understand the point of these exercises, and realise that I is the content of a thought like any other content of a thought and is not real. In fact it seems stupid to have ever believed that. I have felt a kind of peaceful numbness if that makes sense, in that I am not attached to things the same way but that also brings peace because you flow with things.

I still see a lot of I's in that last paragraph, need to work on that!
YES! It *does* bring peace.

Rewrite that entire quote above without using "I," "my," "mine," or "self" in any form. You may have to change the structure of the sentences completely. It can be done without substituting some other word for "I" or if something truer to substitute is found that's good, too.
the point of these exercises is becoming more understandable, 'I' is a thought, the same as any other thought. It occurs but does not directly connect to reality. By seeing that 'I' is just another thought, the mind doesn't attach to things as much so there are less thoughts arising of wanting, needing or offence.
Then for another minute or so describe the taste and smell in as much detail as possible. Write about it here. What was the experience like?
The apple smelled just like the other things called apples smell. It tasted quite sweet and a bit dull, it was a tangy tasting apple. It was a little soft, it wasn't very juicy or very crunchy. Little bits of it stuck in the mouth and teeth.

After you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences:

1. Imaginary fruit
2. Real fruit
3. Description
Lots of thoughts arose about what the apple would taste like and smell like, based on previous experiences. The thoughts had a lot of detail. A thought also arose to say that the thoughts would be very similar to the experience. When the actual apple was smelled a thought arose saying that the smell was very different to the one imagined. The same happened for the taste and texture. What was imagined was very different from what was experienced. When describing it, it was hard to do because the small range or words that we have can't describe the experience of eating an apple. Not even a little bit of it. So, imagination seemed very inaccurate and misleading, the actual experience was full of information and sensations while the description was very poor at describing the experience as so much information was lost.

Thats what was found.

Hope you are well Stacy.
Thanks,
Alan

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Anastacia42
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Re: Newbie

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:35 pm

Hi Alan,

Feeling labeled "great!" Thought arising with (meaningless) content of "excitement when client begins to see the point of the exercises." :)

Actual Experience at this moment?

Sensation labeled fingers on keyboard.
Sound labeled music playing.
Color and image labeled computer & office.
Thoughts arising with story of enjoying.

So. . .
S: Where is this "I" thingy that is seeing something? Are you separate from the seeing of it? Really check.

A: This is just language, I have used 'I' for so long. This was referring to a thought anyway.

S: The idea of that is what? A thought? What have you learned about the content of a thought? Like, who told you that there was some thing called a "stimulus?" What is that?

A: In this case I had said about a stimulus directing me back to a task. What was meant was there was a thought that arose that linked what was being seen to the task that was being carried out. The mind connected the two and the thought suggested that what was seen was linked to what was happening.
Yes, notice - is there some separate you and a separate thing you see or is it just "seeing happening?"

In the last paragraph, simply "thoughts arose." All of that about something called "mind" doing something called "connecting" or "linking?" Pure nonsense - just a story - unless you can see, hear, touch, taste or smell it. Can you?


e point of these exercises is becoming more understandable, 'I' is a thought, the same as any other thought. It occurs but does not directly connect to reality. By seeing that 'I' is just another thought, the mind doesn't attach to things as much so there are less thoughts arising of wanting, needing or offence.
The above is much closer than the first one with "I," but what was meant was to stay closer to the original. What you did was fine. And look at this version, as another way to do it:

Understanding more the point of these exercises, and realising that "I" is the content of a thought like any other content of a thought and is not real. In fact it seems stupid to have ever believed that. Feeling a kind of peaceful numbness if that makes sense, in that there is no attaching to things the same way but that also brings peace because flowing with things happens.

That still isn't pure AE (Actual Experience) because . . . what is "understanding" or "realizing?" But good - progressing!
After you have done this, tell me what you noticed when you compared these three experiences:

1. Imaginary fruit
2. Real fruit
3. Description

1. Imaginary Fruit: Lots of thoughts arose about what the apple would taste like and smell like, based on previous experiences. The thoughts had a lot of detail. A thought also arose to say that the thoughts would be very similar to the experience.

2. Real Fruit: When the actual apple was smelled a thought arose saying that the smell was very different to the one imagined. The same happened for the taste and texture. What was imagined was very different from what was experienced.

3. Description: When describing it, it was hard to do because the small range or words that we have can't describe the experience of eating an apple. Not even a little bit of it.

So, imagination seemed very inaccurate and misleading, the actual experience was full of information and sensations while the description was very poor at describing the experience as so much information was lost.
If I read this correctly, above is how that should be divided. Please help by making things easier for me to read & understand what part of a question you are answering, ok? Thanks!

Now - LOOK - for "I" - You "know" you won't find it, but the LOOKING is the important part. First, please watch this short video about LOOKING:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/res ... h-honesty/

Now, LOOK for the place that separates your butt from the chair. Sensation is found, right? How do you know where the chair stops and the butt starts? Can you find this place? Really LOOK.


Report back with what is found. You're getting this, just keep going! Remember to answer everything marked blue & if I missed something - just answer all the questions.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Allybally
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Re: Newbie

Postby Allybally » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:24 pm

Hi Stacy,
Yes, notice - is there some separate you and a separate thing you see or is it just "seeing happening?"
No just seeing happening, but thoughts arising trying to link things together.
In the last paragraph, simply "thoughts arose." All of that about something called "mind" doing something called "connecting" or "linking?" Pure nonsense - just a story - unless you can see, hear, touch, taste or smell it. Can you?
No it was just thoughts, none of that is real, have to stop writing down the content of thoughts and only write what is actual experience.
Now - LOOK - for "I" - You "know" you won't find it, but the LOOKING is the important part. First, please watch this short video about LOOKING:
the video was watched : )
Now, LOOK for the place that separates your butt from the chair. Sensation is found, right? How do you know where the chair stops and the butt starts? Can you find this place? Really LOOK.
we did this exercise a little while back, but again, all that can be felt is a feeling described as pressure, the is nothing to distinguished between where 'my' body stops and the seat begins. Or anything to identify 'body' or 'seat'.

Thanks,
Alan

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Anastacia42
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Re: Newbie

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:31 pm

Hi Alan,

Okay - yes, you can repeat any or all of these exercises as much as you like. They are not "one and done" kinds of things.

When no self is seen, you may just want to hang out in how good it feels to see what is Actual Experience and not made-up. All the making things up, which is effectively lying to ourselves constantly, leads to tension and stress. When we see without these fetters, a whole different world opens up.

Let's look back at your Imaginary, Real and Described fruit briefly.

Remember how you were surprised at how different the Real taste of the fruit was? Seeing no self is like that. It's surprising how different it is from these stories we've been telling.

Okay, enough theory. I hope you find that encouraging you to keep going and practice until you see.

When I saw no self here in LU, it was with the butt on chair exercise, so I'm a little fond of it. It can be quite direct. But again, any one of these exercises can show you what I am pointing to. Or, in some random moment when you're doing something else, it may just dawn on you.

Let's keep going. Let's try one with a little more story & content than just some cup or apple.

Friend/Stranger

Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".

Compare these thoughts.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference?
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?


I'm going to also think about how to address something you've brought up repeatedly having to do with "problem" and "solving" and some imagined connection between those and thinking.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Allybally
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Re: Newbie

Postby Allybally » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:51 pm

Hi Stacy,

How do we know when the illusion has been definitively seen through? These exercises have made it clear that there is no self, there hasn't been a surprise moment because its what was expected from the start and have always been happy to throw away the concept of self. There have been a few things that have made it click though. Closed eyes exercises demonstrate that there is no such thing as your mody, thats very clear. Visual exercises have shown that you cannot know anything about an object. The latest exercises have shown that the content of thought is made up, not accurate to reality. All thoughts are equal, labelled negative, positive or 'I' they are all the same, just made up. As was mentioned in earlier with a new perspective it feels strange to have ever believed 'I' was anything other than just another thought.

My dog Harvey always helps out with these things. Last night 'I' did a thought experiment trying to experience myself as a dog. It was assumed that he didn't have any internal language/narration so what was left was just his senses. So there he was running around, not full of thought or narration but was just being, he wasn't a separate self. In that context, when looking at him he wasn't seen as separate from his environment but just part of it doing what he was doing. Then I looked at a tree and applied it to that, again very much a part of the earth and planet, not separate, but has its own senses for light, food, water. That made it clear that just because we have thoughts/language/narration it doesn't mean we are separate selves.

I know a lot of that is thought and theory but it does help me. Do you think the illusion is gone?

Thanks,
Alan

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Anastacia42
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Re: Newbie

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:57 pm

Good morning, Alan,

When you SEE, you will not go into a lot of "thought and theory" and you will not think that it helps you to do so. That is just more mind & seeming "self" talking. You won't be explaining things to yourself or to me. You will experience them. You will know.

Your thought experiment sounds like fun.

Are you willing to continue with the Friend/Stranger exercise given?

Friend/Stranger

Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".

Compare these thoughts.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference?
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?


Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Allybally
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Re: Newbie

Postby Allybally » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:04 pm

Hi Stacy,

ok, I just wanted to check. If its as clear as that then it will be much more apparent than what has been described.

I'll do this exercise tonight.

Thanks,
Alan

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Anastacia42
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Re: Newbie

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:52 pm

Hi Alan,

Great. Thank you.

Remind me - have you read any of "Gateless Gatecrashers?" It's a free download from the Books link above. Try reading a few of those and see if you can recognize the shift in others. It can't hurt to have a few role models.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Allybally
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Re: Newbie

Postby Allybally » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:01 pm

Hi Stacy,
Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".
Is it right that we can bring up a thought labelled friend or stranger? if what we have been learning is that thought just happens and there is no I to 'bring them up'? Or is that wrong?
Is there a difference in these thoughts?
No there is no difference, it feels like there is a difference because we label one with warm happy thoughts and another with fear.
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?
The thought is just a thought, the exact same as others but it is associated/labelled with different things
Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference?
.
No all thoughts are the same they are just thoughts.
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?
No there isn't it is just the same as any other thought and the content is made up.

Thanks,
Alan

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Allybally
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Re: Newbie

Postby Allybally » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:08 pm

Hi Stacy,

I have read quite a few of the gateless gatecrashers, and listened to some of the podcasts that seem to describe it. What had been experienced seemed to be similar to that. Its nothing dramatic, but didn't expect it to be, it was already believed. If you think there is more work to do I'm more than happy to carry on. If what was described is not what would be expected.

Thanks,
Alan

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Allybally
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Re: Newbie

Postby Allybally » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:13 pm

Hi Stacy,

How do we know when the illusion has been definitively seen through? These exercises have made it clear that there is no self, there hasn't been a surprise moment because its what was expected from the start and have always been happy to throw away the concept of self. There have been a few things that have made it click though. Closed eyes exercises demonstrate that there is no such thing as your mody, thats very clear. Visual exercises have shown that you cannot know anything about an object. The latest exercises have shown that the content of thought is made up, not accurate to reality. All thoughts are equal, labelled negative, positive or 'I' they are all the same, just made up. As was mentioned in earlier with a new perspective it feels strange to have ever believed 'I' was anything other than just another thought.
Just to clarify, that wasn't me listing what we have done, it is what I have seen directly. : )

Alan

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Anastacia42
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Re: Newbie

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:16 pm

Hi Alan,

Ultimately, I cannot know. You have to tell me. There is a set of questions we use to help determine what else might be needed to help you see. You can answer those and we can go from there, if you like.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Please give detailed, complete answers to each question.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris


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