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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:08 pm

Dear nina,
What do you see?
When all the memory is put aside as the AE of thought, I see a patchwork of colors.
Is it possible not to see?
No.
Do you see anything?
With memory and other thoughts aside, there is a whole field of vision, not really breaking down into separate objects. As to the question of "me" seeing - this is a thought as well, confirmed strongly by a network of memory thoughts.
Is it possible to see anything apart from NOW?
No. There is only now.
Do you need memory for the act of seeing?
No, the memory comes later labeling and discriminating objects.
You can do this exercise with static objects first and then look at some moving objects.
For example; look outside the window and watch the cars moving (if there are any), or animals or people moving, or leaves moving in the wind…

Is there a difference between the two perceptions?
No, there is not really any difference between looking at static and moving objects, except that moving objects engage mind much more strongly - thoughts that label them show quickly and there are many of them, e.g. "a moving object", "a car", "fast one", "red one", even "I like its appearance" or "I don't like it" etc.

All the best

Marcin

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:27 am

Dear Marcin,


What do you see?
When all the memory is put aside as the AE of thought, I see a patchwork of colors.

Wonderful! Just the actual experience of seeing.

Do you see anything?
With memory and other thoughts aside, there is a whole field of vision, not really breaking down into separate objects.
As to the question of "me" seeing - this is a thought as well, confirmed strongly by a network of memory thoughts.
Yes, exactly.
Is it possible to see anything apart from NOW?
No. There is only now.

Yes.
Do you need memory for the act of seeing?
No, the memory comes later labeling and discriminating objects.
Right.

Is there a difference between the two perceptions?
No, there is not really any difference between looking at static and moving objects, except that moving objects engage mind much more strongly - thoughts that label them show quickly and there are many of them, e.g. "a moving object", "a car", "fast one", "red one", even "I like its appearance" or "I don't like it" etc.

Yes, just continue watching and note the actual experience of thought about it.
As in your example with the person with very light-coloured hair; there is a sight; a sense impression,
and then labelling and/or evaluation sets in.


So are you ready now to do the exercise with the deeper body exploration again?

Here it comes again: ( :


Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?



6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs,
or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?


7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?


8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’;
or is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?


All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Sat Nov 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Dear nina,

I've had very little time to calmly work with this exercise in the last two days. However, evidently there is still something blocking any clear view. There appears to be a causal chain - it must be established by thought, but I can't see past through it - linking sensations in the body with images and all of them as a whole "body". I might just need some time alone without distractions to get through it or we may need to put the exercise aside again.
All the best

Marcin

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Sat Nov 03, 2018 3:23 pm

Dear Marcin,

yes, take your time.

It's perfectly OK to write on Monday or so.

All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Sun Nov 04, 2018 7:49 pm

Dear Marcin,

this exercise is touching some deep rooted assumptions.
Some quiet time is really helpful here.
The best would be to find something like a one-hour-free-time.
30 minutes of meditation on the breath before and then 10 minutes or so
for the examinations would serve best.
Any disturbance would pull you off here, so a quiet moment would be the most conductive.

Wishing you a little gap &

all the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:41 am

Dear Marcin,

how are you doing?

all the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:59 am

Dear nina,

Yesterday I was finally able to spend more than an hour to do the exercise. There were some perception shifts, even quite strong ones, during each stage, however I wasn't able to see things without the interference of thoughts yet. I am going to spend some time again today and see if there is some more progress.

Best regards,

Marcin

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:27 am

Dear Marcin,

just see what is there.
When there is inference of thought, then there is inference of thought.
Seeing that is totally enough.
There is nothing like ‘seeing beyond thought’, or a changing of the thought process.
A thought is just a thought and inference is just inference..
They are not ‘your’ thoughts, they are just thoughts.

Great when you have some time to look deeply!

All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:43 am

Dear nina,

I've spent today another hour going slowly through the stages of the exercise. I discovered that I needed to first see and then "remove" mental boundaries separating "things".
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
There is no connetcion, just thoughts.
3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
I had a problem from this point on before, but the "trick" here seems to be to see both the moving hand as a part of the whole "what is seen" and the sensations in the hand as part of the whole "what is felt". When the boundaries - drawn by thought - between objects are neglected, there is no connection at all. Only some sense of awe arises instead, about the sophistication of the brain machinery able to cut out and connect these two events, and to do it constantly.
4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
The same - all the boundaries are created by thought.
5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?
No, the image is not "me" nor "my body". the image does not suggest it is a body, it's just colors and shapes.
6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs,
or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
No, the image cannot suggest anything like this, there is only an "obvious" suggestion made by thoughts.
7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
Again, when looking for any boundaries in AE, there are none. Therefore, no body, just a kind of a constellation of sensations.
8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
A moving constellation of sensations is still a constellation. The labels "walking" or "body" come from an entirely different realm and are just content of some thoughts.
9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’;
or is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Sensations are not localized in the space suggested by images. There is no clearly cut "inner space" of sensations either - it's thoughts that label them and pin them on a mental map of the body.

All the best

Marcin

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:15 pm

Dear Marcin,

whow, wonderful breakdowns!

I've spent today another hour going slowly through the stages of the exercise.
I discovered that I needed to first see and then "remove" mental boundaries separating "things".
Yes, it could be described like that.
However there is nobody removing anything. Who is the one who is doing the ‘removing’?
It is just plain seeing.

Just play with this throughout your day with ordinary situations:
When seeing something, there is just this seeing- or is there anybody there to see?
When talking to somebody, there is just talking - or is there sombody talking?
When touching something, there is just touch, etc.



Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
There is no connetcion, just thoughts.
Thoughts imply that there might be a connection. But this is just an inference and not the actual experience.
3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
I had a problem from this point on before, but the "trick" here seems to be to see both the moving hand as a part of the whole "what is seen" and the sensations in the hand as part of the whole "what is felt". When the boundaries - drawn by thought - between objects are neglected, there is no connection at all. Only some sense of awe arises instead, about the sophistication of the brain machinery able to cut out and connect these two events, and to do it constantly.
Wonderful realisation.

Yes, the mind is ‘making sense’ by its constant feedback loops.
This process is far greater than any computer program.
However in this program a very sticky virus has been installed: The ‘I- virus’.
Does the program stop functioning without anybody claiming authorship?
Freedom is here the freedom to see the picture as a whole or making use of the labels, when necessary.

It is no longer necessary to involve into excessive thinking, which can really become an addiction.
When thought is needed, it is there; as a tool.
But like any tool no identification is necessary when using the tool.
The tool doesn’t need somebody to claim: I’m using the tool…
4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
The same - all the boundaries are created by thought.
Great!
5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?
No, the image is not "me" nor "my body". the image does not suggest it is a body, it's just colors and shapes.
Very good.
6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs,
or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
No, the image cannot suggest anything like this, there is only an "obvious" suggestion made by thoughts.
Yes, exactly.
7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
Again, when looking for any boundaries in AE, there are none. Therefore, no body, just a kind of a constellation of sensations.
Great.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?
A moving constellation of sensations is still a constellation. The labels "walking" or "body" come from an entirely different realm and are just content of some thoughts.
Wonderful!
9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’;
or is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Sensations are not localized in the space suggested by images. There is no clearly cut "inner space" of sensations either - it's thoughts that label them and pin them on a mental map of the body.
Great.


Here is an exercise to get a bit more established in this:

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole.
See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.
Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go. Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.

If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?


Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Sat Nov 10, 2018 6:10 pm

Dear nina,
Yes, it could be described like that.
However there is nobody removing anything. Who is the one who is doing the ‘removing’?
It is just plain seeing.
Yes, of course. It's just thoughts claiming authorship.
Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole.
See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.
Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go. Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.

If yes, where is the boundary?
No, there is no boundary in the AE.
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
No. Spatial distinctions are not part of the AE. And in the same way any distinction between "this living entity here" and "the rest of the world out there, living or not" comes only as a content of thought.
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
No. All is one.
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
No. The perception is now and here.
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
It does not seem to be any separate witnessing part. All there is both happens and is perceived. Happening is the same as perception.
Is there anything which is not just happening?
No.

While all this becomes clearer and clearer, "my" life drama keeps going on: it seems that "me" has been in permanent crisis since quite a long time, and the sense of crisis has been shifting from one thing to another, and from the usual point of view it has reached new peaks recently. As if the life drama was trying to keep "me" involved at any cost. But, as the realization of its total unnecessity becomes stronger, "I start" - or "Marcin starts" - to become more and more fitting in the world, or in other words and more correctly, life somehow has been straightening itself even amidst all this crisis and in spite of the "impeding doom". It seems that this constant crisis thing is a kind of a habit or an attitude, and starts to feel useless and fake.

All the best

Marcin

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:04 pm

Dear Marcin,

these are really wonderful breakdowns!

While all this becomes clearer and clearer, "my" life drama keeps going on: it seems that "me" has been in permanent crisis since quite a long time, and the sense of crisis has been shifting from one thing to another, and from the usual point of view it has reached new peaks recently. As if the life drama was trying to keep "me" involved at any cost. But, as the realization of its total unnecessity becomes stronger, "I start" - or "Marcin starts" - to become more and more fitting in the world, or in other words and more correctly, life somehow has been straightening itself even amidst all this crisis and in spite of the "impeding doom". It seems that this constant crisis thing is a kind of a habit or an attitude, and starts to feel useless and fake.
These are such beautiful insights.
There is quite some momentum in the ‘old process’; but once you realized how the motor of the spinning wheel
is pedaled by the ‘old’ habitual way, it’ll slow down.
But one never knows what life carries in it’s basket for you.
So it’ll stay as exiting or gripping as it is - however there is no ‘Marcin’ who is doing all this…

There might still arise the sense of me, or frustration of me, depression of me,
but actually there is just frustration, anger, joy, happiness, bliss; these are just states arising.
What are they arising to?
This is the whole point.
Actually it is just reality presenting itself to reality.


Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
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Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:11 pm

Dear nina,
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. There is no separate entity like this and never was.
Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Basically, the sense of separate self comes from habit - some thoughts get ingrained so deeply, that they become habitual and they arise quicker than new thoughts responding to the changing reality. They seem to already "be there" when the so called conscious response arrives and therefore are mistaken for the part of the reality itself. This habitual sense of separation becomes established already in early childhood and, as it is taken for granted by most people in the society, it is strengthened through many kinds of social interactions.

It usually becomes a big burden - people feel obliged to cultivate this "self", spend a lot of time to serve it, often feel guilty for not being able to make it as great as they wanted it to be etc. They waste time on their "selves" instead of learning useful skills and working to make the world better place.

What I also see, is that all kinds of habits seem to form spontaneously all the time, growing like plants. The best way to remove unnecessary habits I know of so far is by means of meditation.
There might still arise the sense of me, or frustration of me, depression of me,
but actually there is just frustration, anger, joy, happiness, bliss; these are just states arising.
Yes, this is what's happening here now. The sense of me and related emotions just keep coming back, roaring and demanding attention. It seems that a lot of attention to the AE of the present moment is needed to just continue to be able to glimpse the actual lack of separation.

All the best

Marcin

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suma
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Re: Hi

Postby suma » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:19 pm

Dear Marcin,

wonderful! : )

So here come the 'last questions':


- How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

- What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

- Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen?
How does it work?
What are you responsible for?
Give examples from experience.


- Anything to add?



All the best

nina
Now. Here. That.

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mpsi
Posts: 63
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:52 am

Re: Hi

Postby mpsi » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:27 pm

Dear nina,
How does it feel to see this?
This question is a tricky one :) I spent a lot of time trying to answer it, and that's the main reason why I'm replying so late. How does it feel? There come so many answers, and none of them is right. Life is here and now, and what thoughts can do are only snapshots of it, miserably failing to show what actually happens.

One answer that seems somehow fitting is: it feels as if I tripped over and you started praising me for it. The whole situation looks embarrassing and an instinct says to hide what happened and to quickly get up, but I am not able to do it - there is no "me" anymore.

At first there was an outward rejection in the mind: "No, this is not it, nina is wrong about me, and I have to tell her". It felt very bland. But now, it's more and more clear that you were right. And I have to thank you! You did an amazing job. And the whole website, the whole thing is just amazing.
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
This one is not an easy question, too. But a simple answer may be that the vista is clear now. Life goes on as usually, there is not much difference. Not much difference yet, one might say, because life is ever-changing.
What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
The mirror exercise, and the realization that there are no boundaries between things in the AE.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
Decision happens the same way a falling rock decides its course downward.

Intention is an AE of thought and its presence may influence the path of the "falling rock".

Free will: Isn't a stream of water free? All parts of the reality freely follow best paths available to them.

Choice: the same as with decision.

Control: no control, no need for control.
What makes things happen?
Life flows freely in all its diversity, and the mind differentiates "things which happen" in it.
How does it work?
It doesn't "work". Life seems to be always yielding to itself, making place for itself.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I am responsible for providing for my family, I am responsible for making breakfast for my daughters and accompanying them to the kindergarten etc. I might succeed in it or fail, but ultimately it's the same as, for example, water's being responsible for moving a turbine.
Anything to add?
Lots of gratitude!

All the best

Marcin


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