I Me Mine

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:55 pm

Hi Robyn,
1. What is the sensation?
A feeling of tension or discomfort in the body. Sometimes a clenching feeling in the stomach. Sometimes a lightheadedness.
2. Is the thought really attached?
Hmm, attached isn't the right word. It's like correlation vs. causation.
How are they attached?

There is association between one and the other, but that association is a thought, obviously.
Does the sensation and the thought happen at the same time each time?

The thought usually occurs first, although occasionally there are sensation that are later labelled as "fear" or "overwhelm" that seems to appear out of nowhere, without a thought preceding it. Perhaps the thought is on a subconscious level rather than a conscious level.
See if you can notice various times when there's thought content that includes the term suffering or that is about some kind of suffering - is there always a sensation at the same time and is it always the same sensation?

Sometimes a thought will occur and there will be a sensation that is called 'suffering' but other times the same thought will occur and there will be a sensation with a different quality. And sometimes no discernible sensation at all.
3.Is there a sensation that is sometimes accompanied by a thought about suffering? If so, is it every time and are they simultaneous?
A sensation in the stomach associated with falling randomly occurs and that is then sometimes followed by the thought about suffering, but not every time. And they aren't simultaneous.
4. Is "attached" Direct Experience or concept (thought content)?
"Attached" is a concept.

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Wed Oct 10, 2018 8:44 pm

Hi, Cliff,

Great job!

The point of those questions was to assist you in getting Direct Experience separated from thought labeling and it's clear that you did that.

In seeing that the "suffering" doesn't exist in Direct Experience, is there any more sense of freedom or relief?

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:29 pm

Hi Robyn,
In seeing that the "suffering" doesn't exist in Direct Experience, is there any more sense of freedom or relief?
Unfortunately, no. But perhaps that is because there is an expectation of some kind of sense of freedom or relief to come after the seeing? I didn't answer yesterday because I was hoping that there might be a delayed reaction, but nothing happened. Perhaps I need to completely let go of the idea that the seeing will spark any difference in my experience at all and be satisfied with that? Frustrating.

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:27 pm

Hi, Cliff,

All these thoughts and feelings - to what are they happening? Really look.

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:57 pm

Hi Robyn,
All these thoughts and feelings - to what are they happening? Really look.
First thought is "the thoughts and feelings are happening to me." Second thought is "they aren't happening to anything or anyone. They are just happening."

Cliff

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Mon Oct 15, 2018 3:53 am

HI, Cliff,

My apologies - I had an extremely busy day and I'm inordinately tired. I'll write back tomorrow.

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:08 am

Hi Robyn,

No problem at all. I really appreciate your taking the time to be my guide. Truly.

Cliff

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:22 am

Cliff,

My apologies! I was just checking on you and discovered that the reply I wrote to you didn't get sent! I don't know what happened -- I recall hitting Submit. Oh, well...
First thought is "the thoughts and feelings are happening to me." Second thought is "they aren't happening to anything or anyone. They are just happening."
Thought content is clearly not a good source of accurate information! This is a perfect example!

Back to the original question, put another way: Are the feelings and thoughts happening TO someone (like an I) or are they just happening, like all experience?

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:43 am

Hi Robyn,
Are the feelings and thoughts happening TO someone (like an I) or are they just happening, like all experience?
They are just happening, like all experience. They become "my feelings" or "my thoughts" when an "I" thought co-opts them.

Cliff

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:21 am

HI, Cliff,
They are just happening, like all experience.
Yes.
They become "my feelings" or "my thoughts" when an "I" thought co-opts them.
They do? Can a thought co-opt anything? Can a thought do anything at all? This is thought content.
Why are you adding the thought story here?

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:58 am

Hi Robyn,
They become "my feelings" or "my thoughts" when an "I" thought co-opts them.
They do? Can a thought co-opt anything? Can a thought do anything at all? This is thought content.
Why are you adding the thought story here?
I guess I couldn't leave well enough alone ;) I see that thoughts and feelings are just happening and not happening to anyone. A thought can't co-opt anything. A thought can't "do" anything.

Cliff

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:48 am

Hi, Cliff,

Thank you for your message.
I guess I couldn't leave well enough alone ;)
😄
I see that thoughts and feelings are just happening and not happening to anyone. A thought can't co-opt anything. A thought can't "do" anything.
Cliff, great. Are you clear on the difference between direct experience and thought content?

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Fri Oct 19, 2018 7:08 pm

Hi Robyn,
Are you clear on the difference between direct experience and thought content?
Let's see - direct experience is sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation and thought. Thought content is the label attached to direct experience. In other words, in direct experience, a taste is just a taste. Thought content is "it tastes like chicken."

Cliff

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:58 pm

Hi Cliff,

Thanks for your response. Sorry for the delay getting back to you.
Let's see - direct experience is sight, sound, smell, taste, sensation and thought.
Yep.
Thought content is the label attached to direct experience.
1. Is it really "attached," as in all the time? 2. What other types of content do thoughts have?

A little experiment -- as you go through the rest of today, take pauses every so often and notice Direct Experience and notice thought content (labels and story). Are you able to tell them apart?

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:50 pm

Hi Robyn,
Thought content is the label attached to direct experience.
1. Is it really "attached,"as in all the time?
No, it's not attached all the time. Sloppy language on my part. More accurate to say the label sometimes accompanies direct experience. There is often direct experience without thought.
What other types of content do thoughts have?
Thought content can be personal or impersonal. Sometime it is self-referential, e.g., I'm thirsty, and sometime it isn't, e.g., the wind is blowing the leaves in the trees.

I'd do the experiment you mentioned (notice direct experience and thought content, can I tell them apart) today and report back later tonight.

Cliff


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