I Me Mine

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:26 pm

Hi Robyn,
I meant, is there anything noteworthy that you got from doing the exercise?
I saw that most of my thoughts are "I" thoughts or "I" gets appended to those thoughts almost immediately. I also noticed this happens very quickly, almost imperceptibly.
Now point your index finger to where the “I/me” is located.
Touch the exact location of "I/me".

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "I/me" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
At the direction "point your index finger to where the "I/me" is located," I pointed to my head. But when it was time to "touch the exact location of me," there was a pause. I touched my forehead but that didn't feel right. I felt the touch on my finger and forehead but no "I/me." So no, I couldn't find "I/me" in a direct way like the other parts of my body.
Where is it?
Since "I/me" is a thought, it has no real location in space. The "I/me" thought exists where other thoughts exist, wherever that is.
What did you find?
Something? Anything? Nothing?
There is awareness/aliveness, but other than that, I could not find anything in real life. I could not find an "I/me" outside of thought.
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "I/me” (If any.)
A slight feeling of tension behind the eyes accompanied the "I/me" thought but I can see that feeling is not "I/me".
Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of Direct Experience.
Overall, there were bodily sensations and thoughts of "I/me" but no actual "I/me."

Thanks Robyn,

Cliff

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:18 pm

Hi, Cliff,
Overall, there were bodily sensations and thoughts of "I/me" but no actual "I/me."
👏

Good!

Here's an exercise to see the nature of "choice" and "control." This may already be clear -- but it never hurts to check. 🙂

Sit quietly and take a few deep breaths. With you eyes closed, slowly lift and lower your arm 25 times and as you do so, focus on observing whether there is any evidence that someone (like I) is causing the arm to lift.

Let me know wha you find, ok?

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:58 pm

Hi Robyn,
Let me know wha you find, ok?
I did this exercise before but I don't mind doing it again. :)

There was no "I/me" controlling the movement. There was thought content (reading of the instructions, counting to 25). There were sensations in the body during the deep breathing, and in the arm and shoulder as the arm moved up and down.

Cliff

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Sun Sep 02, 2018 9:05 pm

Cliff --

OOPS! Sorry about that!

Have you done an exercise on time (past, present, future)?

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:35 pm

Hi Robyn,

We did this one on time a while back:
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Is that the one you had in mind?

Cliff

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Mon Sep 03, 2018 6:27 am

Hi, Cliff,

Thank you! Yes, that's the one. I confess to being lazy and in a bit of a rush - my memory wasn't clear and I could have back through your thread.

Ok, then. This is probably the last exercise for you. Rather than explain what it's about, I"ll let it speak for itself.

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time. 

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.

If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?

Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?



Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

Enjoy!

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:47 am

Hi Robyn,
Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself.
Close my eyes and see, huh? Okay. I don't sense a boundary between me and life itself. I'm part of life.
Is there an inside and an outside of Life
No. There is just Life. No inside or outside that I can detect in direct experience.
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
No. Everything is included in the movement of the whole.
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
No. There is just life happening. If there is a witness, the witness is part of life happening, so there is no distance per se. It's all one thing.
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Yes. The witnessing is part of the one movement, part of life happening.
Is there anything which is not just happening?
No. Everything is just happening.
Go out, come back and tell me what you found.
What I found from this exercise is that in the direct experience of life, there are sights, sounds, smells, tastes, sensations, thoughts and emotions. And they are all part of one thing that happening.

Cliff

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:56 pm

Cliff,

Good job!

Now, back to the 'sense of I/self' you have been referring to. If it's still in the way...Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing the keys are in your pocket or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire…

Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

I look forward to your reply.

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:09 pm

Cliff,

This is my 2nd message since you wrote.

Regarding the lack of a shift, this goes back to the expectations. I'm supposing there's still a 'sense of self' -- you haven't referred to it. I do suggest you do the exercise I just sent.

But more than likely, there's just a focus on the thought that seeing through the illusion should feel or look a certain way and that's not the case.

After this last exercise, let's move on to the final questions and then if anything is unclear, we can address that, ok?

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:42 am

Hi Robyn,
Does the sense of self have a location?
I'm having a hard time feeling for it without thinking. How do I evoke the sense of self without thinking about it? Right now I don't notice it without first thinking about it. When I think about the sense of self, the thought that pops into my head is "it's in my body" but I can see that it's a thought. When I feel for it, without thinking, the answer is no, it doesn't have a location.
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Again, the knee-jerk reaction is "it's the shape and size of my body" but I see that is more of a habitual thought. When I feel for the sense of self, without thinking, I can't discern a shape or size.
Does the sense of sense say or communicate anything?
I ask myself this question silently and the thought appears "It says "I exist." But that's another thought.
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
Not in a concrete way. It's not blue, it's not furry, it's not sweet smelling. It's an awareness, a sense of being. Does that count?
What is the sense of self 'made of'? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?
Definitely a thought, for sure. Previously I associated a tension in the forehead with it, but that now seems to be a sensation that accompanies a thought, sort of how thinking of a lemon makes your mouth water.

The sense of self/I appears to be a very persistent, habitual thought.

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:22 am

Hi, Cliff,
It's an awareness, a sense of being. Does that count?
"Characteristics or attributes" means actual, direct experience. Does that count as what?
The sense of self/I appears to be a very persistent, habitual thought.
Bingo! So, it's thought content. Well done!

Sending love, Cliff --

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:27 am

Hi Robyn,

Okay, I think I'm ready for the final question.

Thanks for all of your help!

Cliff

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Thu Sep 06, 2018 5:43 am

Hi, Cliff,

Great that you waited until it was really clear for you.

Here are the questions, Take as much time as you need. It's fine if there's a discovery that not everything is clear -- that's what the questions are for.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
 
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.  What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Enjoy! Cliff, your gratitude is appreciated and it's a pleasure!

With love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:19 am

Hi Robyn,

I have work deadlines from hell that preclude me from doing much else for the next few days. I'll try to post if I can but it not be until Monday.

Hope you have a great weekend!

Cliff

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:18 am

Hi, Cliff,

Thank you for letting me know. I hope your work goes smoothly meeting your deadlines.

Take your time.

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life


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