I Me Mine

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:02 am

Hi, Cliff,
No, it's not attached all the time. Sloppy language on my part. More accurate to say the label sometimes accompanies direct experience. There is often direct experience without thought.
Great. Let's not go too far down this rabbit hole! Can you suffice it to say for now that thought content and Direct Experience are separate?
Sometime it is self-referential, e.g., I'm thirsty, and sometime it isn't, e.g., the wind is blowing the leaves in the trees.
Yes, so it's entire stories as well as labels, correct?
I'd do the experiment you mentioned (notice direct experience and thought content, can I tell them apart) today and report back later tonight.
Super -- feel free to take your time with it. It's valuable to discern.

With love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:22 pm

Hi Robyn,

Sorry, it has taken me so long to reply but I've been swamped with work. I'll see if I can work on this tonight. Thanks for all of your help and patience.

Cliff

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:52 am

Hi, Cliff,

Thanks for being in communication.

Do it at your own pace.

It's my pleasure!

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:20 pm

Hi Robyn,
A little experiment -- as you go through the rest of today, take pauses every so often and notice Direct Experience and notice thought content (labels and story). Are you able to tell them apart?
I had a few days to do this experiment. Yes, I am able to tell them apart. Direct experience is just 'this,' what is happening now. Labels and story come and go.

Cliff

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:13 am

HI, Cliff,
I had a few days to do this experiment. Yes, I am able to tell them apart. Direct experience is just 'this,' what is happening now. Labels and story come and go.
Great!

Can you please describe at least two or three examples of what the Direct Experience was and what the thought contents were? (You can either give examples from the past few days or new ones starting now.)

LIke this:

1) The Direct Experience:
The thought contents:

2) The Direct Experience:
The thought contents:

(etcetera)

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:38 am

Hi Robyn,
Can you please describe at least two or three examples of what the Direct Experience was and what the thought contents were? (You can either give examples from the past few days or new ones starting now.)

LIke this:

1) The Direct Experience:
The thought contents:

2) The Direct Experience:
The thought contents:

(etcetera)
Hope I'm doing this right...

1) The Direct Experience: color, sounds, smells, sensations, thoughts, feeling.
The thought contents: taking a shower - shower wall, water splashing, hands pouring shampoo into hand, washcloth scrubbing body; sounds of water splashing on body and shower walls, floor; water on head and body, hands working shampoo into hair, water rinsing off hair, hand with washcloth scrubbing body, water rinsing off body, wiping body dry with towel; thoughts of conversation with people at work, things that that were said and things to say.

2) The Direct Experience: color, sounds, smells, sensations, thoughts, feeling.
The thought contents: going for a hike - sun in the sky, the trail, the rocks and plants along side the trail, my hiking companion, sweat on my face and body, dust in the air, breathing heavy, tightness in the chest, legs pumping, gravel crunching underfoot, other hikers passing by, mountain bikers; thoughts of vacation later in the week.

Cliff

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:33 am

Cliff --

Great!

I'd like you to answer the final questions once more, please.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.  

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6)Is there anything you would like to add?

Love,

Robyn
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:43 pm

Hi Robyn,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. The only time self/me/I ever existed was in thought content.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self is the idea that there is a 'you' who exists separate from everything else. It starts when we learn language, specifically the subject/object aspect of language. Parents, teachers, friends, school, society in general reinforces the idea.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
I feel a little lighter. I don't feel a whole lot different from before I started this dialogue, but that's fine. A little lightness is better than none at all.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Hard to say. I pretty much gave up on the idea that I would have some transformative cloud-parting, angels-singing enlightenment experience, and accepted the idea that it would be an ordinary 'seeing.'
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decision is something your brain does based on stimulus and conditioning. Intention is a thought that appears prior to an action being taken. Free will is the thought that we are in control. Choice and control are concepts. Nothing makes things happen. I don't know how it works, it just does. 'I' am responsible for everything and nothing. There is a sensation that is labeled an itch and my hand reaches up to scratch my face but it all happens without me willing my hand to scratch my face in response to an itch.
6)Is there anything you would like to add?
Only that I want to thank you, Robyn, for your patience, kindness, and generosity!

Cliff

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:38 am

HI, Cliff,

Thanks for your answers. I have a few fine points to check with you.

In question #3, you wrote:
Decision is something your brain does based on stimulus and conditioning.
Can you know this for sure? Theoretical?
Intention is a thought that appears prior to an action being taken.
Is an intention thought always followed by an action?
'I' am responsible for everything and nothing.
Is there a you to be responsible for everything? I get that you're talking about being one with it all but being responsible for it all is another matter... you're getting into spiritual theory here, I think. What's true when you look rather than report thought?
There is a sensation that is labeled an itch and my hand reaches up to scratch my face but it all happens without me willing my hand to scratch my face in response to an itch.
Good example. Will you please add another one or two?
Only that I want to thank you, Robyn, for your patience, kindness, and generosity!
Cliff, you are more than welcome. Guiding you is my pleasure, truly.

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Clifftone
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:52 pm

Hi Robyn,
In question #3, you wrote:
Decision is something your brain does based on stimulus and conditioning.
Can you know this for sure? Theoretical?
Haha - busted. No, I can't know this for sure. That is absolutely theoretical, thought content.
Is an intention thought always followed by an action?
No, an intention thought isn't always followed by an action. One can have an intention thought without any subsequent action.
Is there a you to be responsible for everything? I get that you're talking about being one with it all but being responsible for it all is another matter... you're getting into spiritual theory here, I think. What's true when you look rather than report thought?
Yes, that is spiritual theory, busted again. "I" am not responsible for anything because there is no "I" to be responsible.
There is a sensation that is labeled an itch and my hand reaches up to scratch my face but it all happens without me willing my hand to scratch my face in response to an itch.
Good example. Will you please add another one or two?
A thought appears - "time to take the dog for a walk." Shoes are put on, the leash is picked up and attached to the dog collar, bags are put in the pocket, the door is opened and the walking happens.

Here's what happened just now - reading, then typing happens. Words appear on the screen. Pause, fingernail biting happens. More typing and reading what is being typed as it is being typed.

Cliff

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:22 am

Thanks, Cliff!

Are there any questions? Or any doubts that you have seen?

Love,

Robyn
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:35 am

Cliff,

A fellow guide looked over your answers for me and agrees with me that you have crossed the Gateless Gate and there are no more questions. You will soon receive an invitation to LU Aftercare and another group.

Congratulations and great work, Cliff!

Your thread will be moved to the Archives section of the Board, also.

There's another very interesting group -- I'm going to send you info on it by Private Message.

Love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Clifftone » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:38 am

Thanks Robyn!

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply - there is a lot going on with my job and of course, the midterm elections. I really appreciate all of your help. It's been quite a ride!

Best always,

Cliff

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Artst
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Re: I Me Mine

Postby Artst » Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:28 am

You're more than welcome, Cliff!

I was pretty involved with stuff around the elections, as well.

I sent you a private message with more information in it. Please let me know if you got it.

Love always --

Robyn

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