Just Breathe

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:56 pm

Dealing with difficult people for example: I want them to be more cooperative however that is not the current reality. The wanting them to be cooperative has no bearing on the fact that they are not....
Sounds frustrating! Look at these feelings. Is there a 'self' that 'experiences frustration' or is it more like a story about frustration, about an imagined entity that is frustrated, plus uncomfortable energetic sensations (possibly around the body) ?
I was referring to my expression "the big scheme of things" - it seems to be an insight into how the mind has been trained to work....that there IS a big scheme of things and, if there is, it has to be something complex and elaborate
Thanks for the clarification.
Agreed - it's like beating yourself up in meditation over a wandering mind vs. noticing that the mind has wandered and gently bringing it back.
Yes and thinking of that, have you tried looking at the gap or space between the end of one thought and the beginning of the next one? It's worth trying to see what the experience is like.

Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:31 am

Sounds frustrating! Look at these feelings. Is there a 'self' that 'experiences frustration' or is it more like a story about frustration, about an imagined entity that is frustrated, plus uncomfortable energetic sensations (possibly around the body) ?
There are feelings of frustration, sure. And of course these feelings are impermanent. I’m not sure what you mean by a “story” though. Can you elaborate?

As to the
space between thoughts
I have found that there is little space between thoughts outside of meditation. When meditating there has been a silence between thoughts and a feeling of peace and almost elation at the quietness

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:42 am

. I’m not sure what you mean by a “story” though. Can you elaborate?
In the story of 'James' someone appears to be frustrated. This is an opportunity to look for who...or what, is frustrated? I know this isn't very easy in the heat of the moment but its worth taking a look to see if it is possible to find a one that is the experiencer of frustration.

Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:04 pm

Hello:
In the story of 'James' someone appears to be frustrated. This is an opportunity to look for who...or what, is frustrated? I know this isn't very easy in the heat of the moment but its worth taking a look to see if it is possible to find a one that is the experiencer of frustration.
I get it - the question of WHO is feeling frustration... Is there an entity that is feeling frustration, etc.

It certainly "feels" like there is an experiencer because of the physical sensations such as tightening in the shoulders, anxious moving of legs, etc.

I can say that "frustration is being felt" but that would lead to the question of "by who"? So if there is no "I" to feel frustrated yet there IS a feeling of frustration are we saying that "frustration" just IS?

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:21 am

. I can say that "frustration is being felt" but that would lead to the question of "by who"? So if there is no "I" to feel frustrated yet there IS a feeling of frustration are we saying that "frustration" just IS?
Well, that is the question. And you must answer it for yourself (so to speak).

So how to go about investigating this? Notice these times of frustration. Notice the feeling of tightening or anxiety. Uncomfortable as this may feel, ask:

Who or what is resisting this ?

Is a self 'there'. feeling these tensions?

Is there an experiencer of experience?

Good luck with this. Its not particularly easy but is actually fertile ground.

Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:47 pm

Good luck with this. Its not particularly easy but is actually fertile ground.
I am getting PLENTY of practice with this today, my friend...plenty

I will work with this today....a lot....and get back to you.

I agree about the fertile ground and think you're absolutely correct about that

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:26 pm

Great. I'll be interested in how you get on. Good luck.

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:45 pm

Thanks, Jon.

Plenty of "practice" looking yesterday - feelings of frustration, anxiousness, offence, irritation, not usually near this bad in the office but when a huge project comes down it gets to be a matter of who can dodge responsibility the quickest.... So, again, plenty of practice ;)

That said, whenever the feelings I mentioned above started to arise, I looked for the "I" who was feeling them. Was it in the mind? Nope The body? No, although that's where the different feelings manifested themselves (tension, weird feeling across torso, etc)

So I couldn't find an "I" who was feeling the feelings and yet the feelings were very real but did not last nearly as long. In fact, when I started "looking" it seems as if they dissolved quite a bit. It felts less....personal

Thoughts?

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:27 pm

Hi James,
. That said, whenever the feelings I mentioned above started to arise, I looked for the "I" who was feeling them. Was it in the mind? Nope The body? No, although that's where the different feelings manifested themselves (tension, weird feeling across torso, etc)

So I couldn't find an "I" who was feeling the feelings and yet the feelings were very real but did not last nearly as long. In fact, when I started "looking" it seems as if they dissolved quite a bit. It felts less....personal
Wow. Very nice work. Isn't it fascinating? Some more of this inquisitiveness as to what's really going on under various circumstances is a good idea.

Your descriptions of sensations is fascinating as you are not finding a core 'experiencer' .

Does it feel as though this inquiry is making sense? Let me know of any unaddressed doubts or questions?

Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:47 pm

Sorry, Jon. Attended a funeral yesterday and am heading out of town on business until Wednesday. I will have some time to explore this more furring some down times and have been continually looking for the “I” when emotions arise. Still none to be found.

One question I did have was whether the seeing of no I” carries with it a sense of un-attachment. I think that is one of the fears that lingers. Does the “no-self” take away from the pleasant as well as unpleasant feelings in life. If there’s nobody here to feel frustrated then it stands to reason that there’s nobody here to feel joy as well. How does one enjoy the feeling of joy whilst not lingering on a negative feeling

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:10 pm

Hi James,

Thanks for your reply. I will respond asap but just to let you know, I may be a bit slow at that over the next three days as I'm inescapably busy helping in-laws. But will post soon.

Thanks,

Jon

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:59 pm

Hi James,
. I will have some time to explore this more furring some down times and have been continually looking for the “I” when emotions arise. Still none to be found.
Good work!
. Does the “no-self” take away from the pleasant as well as unpleasant feelings in life. If there’s nobody here to feel frustrated then it stands to reason that there’s nobody here to feel joy as well. How does one enjoy the feeling of joy whilst not lingering on a negative feeling
I don't really know. For me joy happens. But then so does a certain amount of irritation at tines and then it might take a little while before the 'waking up' happens and the nonsense of identification shows its self.. In my experience joy cannot be stopped but neither can some 'negative' feelings, though its sometimes possible to notice such sensations so that they are seen as energetic sensations, nothing more or less .Nothing personal. Like little whirlpools in a river.

Though its important not to take this (or anything else) on as a new belief about 'how things are'. Look at immediate experience of what happens right now to find out what is.

Is anyone here to feel joy or negative emotions? But those experiences happen, don't they? What's that about? What's going on?

Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:16 am

Hi Jon:

Well that’s the question....fear, irritation, frustration, joy, they all happen, they all are experienced they all simply are. So who is experiencing these emotions? They are felt and yet there is no experiencer. Are feelings simply chemical reactions? I don’t know. I guess that’s why I’m here. I want to get to the bottom of this.

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:41 pm

HI James,
Well that’s the question....fear, irritation, frustration, joy, they all happen, they all are experienced they all simply are. So who is experiencing these emotions? They are felt and yet there is no experiencer.
It's a great question and looking for that 'self' is key.
Are feelings simply chemical reactions? I don’t know. I guess that’s why I’m here. I want to get to the bottom of this.
To be harcore about this: Looking right here and now is there an experience of 'chemical reactions'?

As feelings are experienced is it possible to directly find 'chemicals' making feelings happen?

In fact please look for direct experience of causes...

Is there any evidence happening right now, or now, or now, that reveals what 'causes' anything to happen?

Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:24 pm

Hello:
To be harcore about this: Looking right here and now is there an experience of 'chemical reactions'?

As feelings are experienced is it possible to directly find 'chemicals' making feelings happen?

In fact please look for direct experience of causes...

Is there any evidence happening right now, or now, or now, that reveals what 'causes' anything to happen?
Nope, no feelings of chemical reactions or generally something that makes them happen, arise, fall - there are feelings which arise in reaction to certain stimuli (joy at seeing a dog chasing a leaf - pride at my daughter making a good decision), however.

The understanding is there that
Feelings are experienced however no experience-er can be found.
Feelings and thoughts are impermanent and rise and fall without cause (there is not a decision to feel happy and then a state of happiness is suddenly prsent),
Feelings and thoughts do not feel as personal since there is no "I" to whom they are directed. To use a phrase, the "noting" technique has really been instrumental in this - simply "noting' a thought or a feeling as opposed to taking it in and allowing it to take up residence

So when the feeling of frustration arises, the question is asked "who is the "I" that is feeling frustrated right now"; since none can be found the feeling pretty quickly dissipates. I feel like it's very much like not taking it personally since there is no person to whom the feeling is attaching

It seems like there is progress, but then I ask "who is making progress" - progress is just happening I want to answer - there is a sense that the "understanding" (for lack of a better word) is sitting in the peripheral vision but there's not the sense of which way to turn to see it clearly


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