Just Breathe

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:34 pm

Hello Jon:
What is just is. 'Soul', 'God' 'Self', 'Everything','Awareness' 'The Universe' are all labels.
So, in saying this, Christianity is not compatible with no-self in your view? I don't see anyone else really asking these questions on the board so I figured I may as well... Your answer is your view, and I respect that :)
Yes. And in the meantime, it can be very interesting to notice what thoughts do appear and what they 'say' about almost everything.
I've been noticing my thoughts since I was a kid to be honest (I'm 48 now) and I remember some of the craziest things entering my mind and somehow had the wherewithal to question them - I wondered where they came from since they weren't what "I believed". There are still thoughts that pop up which I would be ashamed of if I didn't understand that these thoughts were not created and, instead, just appear. Attachment doesn't happen anymore as much as it used to before I understood that thought begin and end in nothingness. Thank you Headspace :)

Do you ever find yourself 'waking up' to a series of thoughts which had you fully believing in a fixed James?
Yes, recently - there was a feeling to self-consciousness which had me worried about how "I" was being perceived by others. "I" would put on my "professional" or "funny" "self" to adjust to the crowd - now that feeling is largely gone and the view being held is since there is no "I" there is nothing to be "self-conscious" about. Mindfulness has really taken the "mind" out of the game where assumptions are concerned - when the focus is completely on the present there is no time to be bothered about much else and, even if one was, there would be no point since neither the past nor the future exist....only now

Can falling into temporary belief in a separate selfhood be prevented?

But then, can 'waking up' from these imaginings be prevented either?
I think through mindfulness, falling into the temporary trap can be avoided as I stated above. With regards to "waking up" from the imaginings, there is a feeling that it cannot be prevented but it can be ignored...

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:53 am

Hi James,
. So, in saying this, Christianity is not compatible with no-self in your view? I don't see anyone else really asking these questions on the board so I figured I may as well... Your answer is your view, and I respect that :)
I did not say that Christianity is incompatible with no self I said what is just is. That's to say, whatever is going on is what's going on. There just has to be a willingness to look at this

I had been seriously a Buddhist earlier in my life and still held confused Buddhist views when I came to be guided. But to my amazement, whatever I expected to 'see' did not happen as imagined..
Instead of confirming my confused idea/fear that 'I might be 'nothing' there was a realisation which felt more akin to 'everything is beautiful, full, infinite and alive and whatever I am I'm not separated from this''.
I think through mindfulness, falling into the temporary trap can be avoided as I stated above. With regards to "waking up" from the imaginings, there is a feeling that it cannot be prevented but it can be ignored...
This brings us back to the idea of agency and free will.

Notice these times of identification with the 'self' illusion. It can happen in small ways quite often.

Who or what 'falls in'?

Notice the moments (possibly seconds later) in which waking up (from it) happens.

What 'wakes up'?

It may take a day or two to play with this, especially if identification isn't happening much, so take a little time to explore this.

The other thing is, find time to go for a walk in nature. Somewhere where life is happening all around. A park would do.

Notice life going on, grass, animals, trees birds, sky, sun, breeze, insects, people, voices, sounds. The whole lot going on, including sensations and thoughts 'inside'.

Now, look for an edge in all this where 'you' end and 'everything else' begins. What do you find?


Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:53 pm

Hello!
This brings us back to the idea of agency and free will.

Notice these times of identification with the 'self' illusion. It can happen in small ways quite often.
Very often when the thought "I feel XYZ" comes up it is immediately followed by the thought "is there someone who feels this or is it just a feeling that is here and is impermanent?" You're right, it does happen in the smallest of ways which is to be expected since the thought of "I" permeates every part of existence as we've been trained to believe.

With regards to nature - that's a good question. my first inclination is to say that "I" end at the end of my physical body and "everything else" seems to begin at it's physical form (if it has one)

Writing this there is the realization that the "physicality" is where things get muddled:
Thoughts have no form
Feelings have no form
Sound has no form

Body has a form (so it's easy to identify as "I" or "me")
Tree has a form
Bird, etc have a form

All of the things with a physical form seem separate yet those things without do not.... Just trying to identify the areas that give me the most trouble....

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:16 pm

Hi,
Very often when the thought "I feel XYZ" comes up it is immediately followed by the thought "is there someone who feels this or is it just a feeling that is here and is impermanent?" You're right, it does happen in the smallest of ways which is to be expected since the thought of "I" permeates every part of existence as we've been trained to believe.
Very true. I guess you've noticed how we receive constant reminders of 'me, 'I', 'self'? Do you see the very big connection with language, how the assumed existence of a fixed self is enshrined in everyday speech?
With regards to nature - that's a good question. my first inclination is to say that "I" end at the end of my physical body and "everything else" seems to begin at it's physical form (if it has one)

Writing this there is the realization that the "physicality" is where things get muddled:
Thoughts have no form
Feelings have no form
Sound has no form

Body has a form (so it's easy to identify as "I" or "me")
Tree has a form
Bird, etc have a form

All of the things with a physical form seem separate yet those things without do not
Good work. Did you go for the walk? It only works if you do it for real.

I know what you're saying. Body, tree, bird are all seem like 'solid objects' so to speak. But where does the idea 'solid object' originate? What gives these their separated reality?

Close your eyes and place your hand against a tree. Wait a while and just experience that sensation without seeing the tree. How does that feel? Is the sensation experienced right there and then 'separate' from the experience of it?

Open your eyes. Let your gaze fall on the tree bark now. Is that which sees 'separate' from the seeing of this?

All the best,

Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:21 pm

Hi Jon,

Speech is absolutely imbedded with the “i”. There’s no avoiding it. We use labels so casually that it is no wonder we have been trained to identify with it in all aspects of our life.

From birth we hear you are this or you are that. Then when we grow older others tell us what we are and we believe it. You are handsome, you have a terrible voice, you are athletic, etc. There is so little thought in the matter it’s actually sad how much who we become (behaviorally in society) is dictated by others.

All these labels have been attached to the “I” that we identify with and are nothing but fiction out there by others. But because we accept it and believe in the “I” it becomes reality

I will spend some time with the idea of separate objects - my first inclination is that separate objects simply are becadue they exist in a separate space. I will also take the walk as you suggested

Thanks Jon!

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:49 pm

Hello:

I've been paying more attention to the living of life - the daily going about things and really am understanding what is meant by the actions "just happening". How there is no real "I" behind the living. It's just a label that we carry around based, in part, on the observation in the previous post.

From the mundane getting coffee and preparing for work to the complex action of looking off into the distance any these fingers automatically type what it is that is in the consciousness - it's quite interesting to see that there's really no "choice" being made. It does just happen. Patterns and habits and repetition - it sounds boring but it's not....it's life

What are your thoughts on these observations and those in my previous post, Jon?

Talk soon!
James

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:45 pm

Hi James,

Sorry for the delay in replying. But thank you for your posts and they are great.
There is so little thought in the matter it’s actually sad how much who we become (behaviorally in society) is dictated by others.

All these labels have been attached to the “I” that we identify with and are nothing but fiction out there by others. But because we accept it and believe in the “I” it becomes reality
Yes it's really a pity.
I will spend some time with the idea of separate objects - my first inclination is that separate objects simply are because they exist in a separate space. I will also take the walk as you suggested
I will be very interested to see what you find.
From the mundane getting coffee and preparing for work to the complex action of looking off into the distance any these fingers automatically type what it is that is in the consciousness - it's quite interesting to see that there's really no "choice" being made. It does just happen. Patterns and habits and repetition - it sounds boring but it's not....it's life
Good. That is really interesting. What does make all this happen then?

Thank you,

Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:55 pm

Hi Jon:

No worries - bunch of stuff happening here as well.

Still working on that walk :)
What does make all this happen then?
That is the question - it seems life is just living itself however part of that answer is not satisfying - it seems there should be "more". Thoughts?

James

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:05 pm

Ha! Nice quick reply. Thank you.
What does make all this happen then?
That is the question - it seems life is just living itself however part of that answer is not satisfying - it seems there should be "more". Thoughts?
Tell me exactly what is not satisfying about it?

Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:41 pm

Hi -

Yep, good timing!
Tell me exactly what is not satisfying about it?
I suppose the "expectation" that there should be more is what makes it less than a satisfying answer - it's not as complex an answer as it "seems" it should be.

It's like finding out that your absolute favorite steak dish has a secret ingredient and it's....salt

That doesn't make it any less enjoyable, though. Do we need to have complex answers for them to be satisfying or meaningful? I don't think so, actually. Life living itself seems mundane and yet there's still not an understanding of what that should "actually" mean in the big scheme of things. What is the benefit of seeing this?

Curiouser and curiouser....

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:34 pm

Life living itself seems mundane and yet there's still not an understanding of what that should "actually" mean in the big scheme of things.
Could that be because a meaning is a conceptualization and in contrast, life living its self is what's actually happening, regardless of any interpretation about it?

You mention a big scheme of things. That's an idea that there is a scheme of things. If there is, could that be life living its self?

Jon

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:53 pm

Could that be because a meaning is a conceptualization and in contrast, life living its self is what's actually happening, regardless of any interpretation about it?
So, like the Earth orbits the Sun, it is happening whether I think the orbit should follow a shorter path or not?
You mention a big scheme of things. That's an idea that there is a scheme of things. If there is, could that be life living its self?
Yes - very interesting expression I used and a good interpretation of that expression - our language truly does represent part of the perceived reality whether it is realized or not.

Does this habit of making "oneself" the center of the universe on a daily basis (taking things personally, getting caught up in the daily drama) eventually fall off? It's easy for the habitual thinking to take over and, how it feels now, there needs to be a reminder that that is not the case (everything is about me and requires a response or reaction).

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:35 pm

Hi James,
So, like the Earth orbits the Sun, it is happening whether I think the orbit should follow a shorter path or not?
Well, that's a nice analogy but if we stick with your immediate experience we can look to check. There is seeing, hearing, smell, taste and touch all happening or potentially happening. And yes, there are thoughts appearing ABOUT what's going on. It seems perfectly possible to experience thoughts ABOUT how things should happen, how things 'should be' that have little or no bearing on what's actually happening. Do you notice this?
our language truly does represent part of the perceived reality whether it is realized or not.
How do you mean? Could you give an example?
Does this habit of making "oneself" the center of the universe on a daily basis (taking things personally, getting caught up in the daily drama) eventually fall off?
That habit can be seen through increasingly clearly. But perhaps there is a sense in which the universe is the centre of its self? Maybe it's helpful not to be at war with the appearance of such 'me' thoughts, to allow some compassion, but to keep noticing that what thoughts have to 'say' about a separate entity is not at all true?

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JonathanR
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JonathanR » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:35 pm

Hi James,
So, like the Earth orbits the Sun, it is happening whether I think the orbit should follow a shorter path or not?
Well, that's a nice analogy but if we stick with your immediate experience we can look to check. There is seeing, hearing, smell, taste and touch all happening or potentially happening. And yes, there are thoughts appearing ABOUT what's going on. It seems perfectly possible to experience thoughts ABOUT how things should happen, how things 'should be' that have little or no bearing on what's actually happening. Do you notice this?
our language truly does represent part of the perceived reality whether it is realized or not.
How do you mean? Could you give an example?
Does this habit of making "oneself" the center of the universe on a daily basis (taking things personally, getting caught up in the daily drama) eventually fall off?
That habit can be seen through increasingly clearly. But perhaps there is a sense in which the universe is the centre of its self? Maybe it's helpful not to be at war with the appearance of such 'me' thoughts, to allow some compassion, but to keep noticing that what thoughts have to 'say' about a separate entity is not at all true?

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JayCee
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Re: Just Breathe

Postby JayCee » Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:49 pm

There is seeing, hearing, smell, taste and touch all happening or potentially happening. And yes, there are thoughts appearing ABOUT what's going on. It seems perfectly possible to experience thoughts ABOUT how things should happen, how things 'should be' that have little or no bearing on what's actually happening. Do you notice this?
Yes, things are as they are - wanting things to be different than they are at this moment is what causes the internal drama (or suffering, I suppose). Because I want something to be different does not make it different. Dealing with difficult people for example: I want them to be more cooperative however that is not the current reality. The wanting them to be cooperative has no bearing on the fact that they are not....
our language truly does represent part of the perceived reality whether it is realized or not.
I was referring to my expression "the big scheme of things" - it seems to be an insight into how the mind has been trained to work....that there IS a big scheme of things and, if there is, it has to be something complex and elaborate
But perhaps there is a sense in which the universe is the centre of its self? Maybe it's helpful not to be at war with the appearance of such 'me' thoughts, to allow some compassion, but to keep noticing that what thoughts have to 'say' about a separate entity is not at all true?
Agreed - it's like beating yourself up in meditation over a wandering mind vs. noticing that the mind has wandered and gently bringing it back.


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