Beingness

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ulduffer
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Beingness

Postby ulduffer » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:02 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Conceptually I know there is no self. I'm not my thoughts, feelings or sensations. I'm the one who observes them. I'm aware.

What are you looking for at LU?

To learn techniques for self inquiry for starters and experience directly that the self is an illusion. From there I would like to evolve spiritually more and more with the help of the community here.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

I honestly don't know what to expect exactly from a guided conversation since I'm relatively new to this. I guess i will be asked to ask myself questions/self inquire to help unravel the illusion of self.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
10 day vipassana meditation course. I listen to some spiritual/non duality people on youtube but after talking to a friend I realise that I need to put in work into self inquiry and focusing more on my direct experience and not others' peoples' experience.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Artst
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Re: Beingness

Postby Artst » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:12 am

HI, ulduffer

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :). Glad you made it here. 

My name is Robyn. I can be your guide if that's okay with you. Should I call you ulduffer or is there another name you prefer?

I will do my best to guide you to see that the “self” is no more real than Santa Claus, just as you may see a guy in a Santa suit yet never again believe it’s Santa Claus. 

I will point the direction and you will be doing the work. 

It is best to avoid analyzing, speculation and debate. The mind will try to create distraction. 

It is vital that you really do each “experiment” I provide, answer each question and look at your direct experience — in the present moment — instead of relying on analytical thought or memory.

A couple of things before proceeding: 
-Here's a link that shows how to use the quote function: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ[/
-Please try to keep up posting every day if you can for the sake of momentum. However things come up, of course, and that's okay. Just let me know when you're unable to respond and I will do the same for you. 
- Please be 100% honest and just write what's true for you. It works best to put aside teachings, books, and videos for the time being so you can be more available to focus on your own experience. That's where we'll look. 

If you're okay with everything so far, we can start. 

Warmly,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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ulduffer
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Re: Beingness

Postby ulduffer » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:24 am

My name is Robyn. I can be your guide if that's okay with you. Should I call you ulduffer or is there another name you prefer?
Lovely to meet you Robyn, please call me Andrew. I'm honoured to accept you as my guide.
-Please try to keep up posting every day if you can for the sake of momentum. However things come up, of course, and that's okay. Just let me know when you're unable to respond and I will do the same for you.
That shouldn't be a problem but if something comes up, you will be the first to know. I'm about to do some work so it might be some time before i reply to your first experiment but i'm looking forward to investigating so fire away Robyn.

Andrew

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Artst
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Re: Beingness

Postby Artst » Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:54 am

Hi, Andrew,

It's nice to meet you, too!

Let's begin by getting your expectation out on the table. So please answer these questions:

1) What do you expect to happen as a result of this? 

2) What do you want not to happen? 

3) What are you hoping for? 

4) Please make a list of the things that should be different when you realize there’s no separate self (that weren't covered in the first 3 questions).

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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ulduffer
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Re: Beingness

Postby ulduffer » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:47 am

1) What do you expect to happen as a result of this? 

I would only be guessing or repeating something I might have heard in a video or book but I’ll try. I guess some kind of shift in my consciousness and a realisation of my true nature as a result of direct contemplation.
2) What do you want not to happen? 
I’ve been staring at this question for minutes and nothing seems to be coming up. Maybe I don’t want to lose my personality or become dull after it but as those thoughts arise I recognise them as ego trying to protect itself. At least that’s what I’ve been led to believe. I’m also having a little bit of Fear at how it may affect my relationship with my partner and maybe friends and family especially since they would all think that I’m a weirdo for being into this stuff in the first place.
3) What are you hoping for?
To have the no self experience/self realisation. I guess hope for a slightly easier life so that my continued evolution is somewhat easier with less identification with thought stories. I recognise these thought stories are not produced by me the observer but there are good days and bad days. Some bad days I act or react to them especially with my partner.
4) Please make a list of the things that should be different when you realize there’s no separate self (that weren't covered in the first 3 questions).
-Less thought stories eventually but not straight away, conditioning will remain until work is put in. I’d like to think that I experience more thought stories on average, especially noticed since doing Vipassana meditation 10 day silent course/retreat.

-Maybe better sleep due to a more peaceful mind/being which will then of course lead to a more productive life whereas now I feel I haven’t slept properly in quite a while.

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Re: Beingness

Postby Artst » Sat Jul 21, 2018 5:48 am

Hi, Andrew,

I hope you don't mind my late reply. I'm a night owl.

Thank you for the effort and honesty of your message.

Now that you can see what hopes, expectations and concerns are there, the thing to do is set them aside and just let this inquiry go however it goes. The expectations of how it will be or feel can get in the way of seeing through the illusion.
Maybe I don’t want to lose my personality or become dull...I’m also having a little bit of Fear at how it may affect my relationship with my partner and maybe friends and family especially since they would all think that I’m a weirdo for being into this stuff in the first place.

It's normal to have some fears and I can assure you that you won't lose anything due to seeing through the illusion that there is a separate self.

If you're fine with setting aside expectations, (and let me know if you're not), please answer, looking only at Direct Experience (not thoughts as in theories, beliefs, learned ideas, etc.):

If you look for the I, what is there? Can you describe what you find?

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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ulduffer
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Re: Beingness

Postby ulduffer » Sat Jul 21, 2018 7:12 am

I hope you don't mind my late reply. I'm a night owl.


Not to worry, we both seem to be asleep when the other replies probably different time zones,
I'm in Ireland.
If you look for the I, what is there? Can you describe what you find?
I feel sensations of the body touching the chair along with other sensations in the body,
I notice thoughts arise but sometimes no thoughts are there and I seem more aware but
just being there. For this reason, I'm definitely not my thoughts as they come and go
and my true nature remains. Right now I hear a humming sound from my PC. These are the things
I am directly experiencing right now.

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Re: Beingness

Postby Artst » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:00 am

HI, Andrew,
Not to worry, we both seem to be asleep when the other replies probably different time zones,
I'm in Ireland.
Yes, I'm in Texas, USA. 🙂
For this reason, I'm definitely not my thoughts as they come and go
and my true nature remains.
Good to notice the thoughts are not 'you.' What is meant by "my true nature?"
Isn't an "I" implied by "my true nature?"
I feel sensations of the body touching the chair along with other sensations in the body,
I notice thoughts arise but sometimes no thoughts are there and I seem more aware but
just being there... Right now I hear a humming sound from my PC.
With the exception of framing all this Direct Experience as "I" this is a good description of some direct experience.

If you look for 'I' what is there? So, what do you find in DE that is I?

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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ulduffer
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Re: Beingness

Postby ulduffer » Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:47 pm

Hello Robyn,
Good to notice the thoughts are not 'you.' What is meant by "my true nature?"
Isn't an "I" implied by "my true nature?"
My true nature is just another concept, something heard before in relation to don duality. Therefore It's just another thought and NOT part of DE (Direct Experience).
If you look for 'I' what is there? So, what do you find in DE that is I?
There is a body and a mind. The mind thinks of what to reply to this question and then the fingers of the body type this response. More contemplation happens concerning this answer but no thought arise.
Thoughts arise to move the body (for example the hand) to write this and it's carried out. So this body + mind = I ?

Returning more love,

Andrew

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Artst
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Re: Beingness

Postby Artst » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:23 am

Hi, Andrew,
My true nature is just another concept, something heard before in relation to don duality. Therefore It's just another thought and NOT part of DE (Direct Experience).
Yes, good.
There is a body and a mind. The mind thinks of what to reply to this question and then the fingers of the body type this response.
Not really DE here - but we will get back to the line of inquiry about control and connection between thought and action later.
So this body + mind = I ?
Andrew, this is really thought content, not DE.

To help you get crystal clear on Direct Experience, here's an exercise of sorts. Please read it carefully and really do the exercise.

Direct Experience (DE) refers to your experience right now, without labels and thought stories. So, direct experience (DE) consists of color, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple noticing of thought at face value. What thought says, ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. When looking at direct experience (DE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.
Thought layers concepts over direct experience. A thought (concept, idea, label) is never the actual. Some thoughts point to the actual, and some point to other thoughts, but the content of every single thought is just a story.

For this exercise, you can use an apple or substitute any other fruit, vegetable or simple object. 

Look at the apple. When looking at an apple, there's color, a thought saying "apple" and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."  What is known for sure? Color is known and thoughts are known. 

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? 
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is just more thought. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, color(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Is there really an "apple" here, or only color and a thought ABOUT "apple?" Can "apple" be found in actual experience?

While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. 

This is what is meant by ‘looking in direct experience" - what you know for sure.

- Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
- Color (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
- Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
- Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
- Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known. However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it a label?)

Andrew, let me know what you see/discover from this exercise.

You're doing fine!

Sending more love - It's accumulating. 😉

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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ulduffer
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Re: Beingness

Postby ulduffer » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:08 am

So this body + mind = I ?
Andrew, this is really thought content, not DE.
Of course it’s a thought, at the end of the DE experiment a thought arose summarising my DE but OF COURSE that’s more thought. Thanks.
For this exercise, you can use an apple or substitute any other fruit, vegetable or simple object.
An orange will be used except orange is also just a thought label, it just is!
There is colour, there are sensations, there is smell.
This is all that is known, everything else is a thought/label including this sentence.

Much Love

Andrew

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Artst
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Re: Beingness

Postby Artst » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:25 am

Hi, Andrew,
Of course it’s a thought, at the end of the DE experiment a thought arose summarising my DE but OF COURSE that’s more thought.
Ok. Now where exists the "my" in "myDE?"
This is all that is known, everything else is a thought/label including this sentence.
Ha, ha! yes.

Well done.

Now, what is found in looking for the I?

Sending love,

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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ulduffer
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Re: Beingness

Postby ulduffer » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:29 am

Robyn,
Ok. Now where exists the "my" in "myDE?"
There is no my. There is only DE.
Now, what is found in looking for the I?
Nothing 'I' literally only appears in thought. I is never part of DE.

Love

Andrew

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Artst
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Re: Beingness

Postby Artst » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:35 am

Hi, Andrew,

That was fast!
Nothing 'I' literally only appears in thought. I is never part of DE.
Is there any such thing as an "I" other than a thought or label?

Sending love!

Robyn
Bring Art to Life

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ulduffer
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Re: Beingness

Postby ulduffer » Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:40 am

Robyn,
Is there any such thing as an "I" other than a thought or label?
No ''I'' cannot be found in DE. I is a word/label/thought.

Love Andrew


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