Go with the flow

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conrad
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby conrad » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:07 pm

Dear Ilona,

I had to observe hard to answer your questions, that’s why it took longer than anticipated. Sorry.

You say that body owns thought. Is that true?

True:

Thoughts are tied to the body just like senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling and touching). Thoughts occur constantly as both a reaction to the environment and the mental state a human being is in.
So in terms of ownership of thoughts, they are owned by the body.

What is relation to body and thought?

Thoughts are fabricated by the body and experienced by the body. It’s a closed loop. Thoughts can be expressed by the body by different means. Just as bats are using sound waves to navigate, humans uses thoughts to navigate our complex societies. It’s like a navigational tool. Thoughts are the six sense.

Is body a thought?
The body could exist without thoughts, just like not having ears or eyes.
Body is real, not a thought.

Is thought inside or outside the body?
Thoughts are inside the body but can be manifested outside the body as a physical reaction.

There is no I to interfere with thoughts but there are thoughts about an I that are let to believe it’s possible. It’s like a thought within another thought or a dream within another dream.

When “I” began to have an interest in seeing it was not because I decided to. Life presented circumstances and options that my mind and body reacted to. It’s all causality and processes connecting with other processes. There is no need for an I to make this happen. It happens all by itself.

That is why life these days have started to become so wonderful. A big burden has been taken off the shoulders of this existence. The hunger for control has ceased. Old loops have started to shatter blowing the fog away. This human experience is very different from earlier experiences.

Hopefully the answers make sense.

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Ilona
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby Ilona » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:08 pm

Thank you for reply.
Your answers about the body are purely based on what you have learned from others. This knowledge you have needs to be tested in order to know what is true. So are thoughts tied to the body? Is that true in your actual experience? How are they tied?
What is body, really? Can you see that what we call body in experience are sensations. Just sensations + all kinds of labels, like hand, foot, pain, heartbeat, hair, eyes, tickling, vibrating... can you see that word body points to sensations? Now which sensation is experiencing thoughts? Which sensation is making decisions about what will happen next? So look again, are thoughts inside the sensations that we call body or do thoughts arise along sensations? Are sensations containers for thoughts?

Really examine this and write what is true in your actual experience. No theory. Just describe what you see.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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conrad
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby conrad » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:53 am

This is both scary and very liberating. The experience is this:

Thoughts and body coexist in time and space but aren’t tied together. They can however interfere with each other. Body is a collection of sensations. An avatar of physical experience.

Thoughts doesn’t require sensations. Sensations doesn’t require thoughts.
They are independent of each other.

So what is life as experienced? It’s like a play in a theater. Physical sensations and thoughts. A story line that just plays with billions of actors.

What is experiencing all of this?
Universe, Cosmos, Jesus, God, Universal Consciousness or what ever labeling there exists.

That’s the experience. No theory- just what occurs.



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Re: Go with the flow

Postby Ilona » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:12 pm

You only scratched the surface, look deeper, much deeper. As if you really want to know!
Is there an actor inside the body playing a role? When you look at other bodies, are there actors inside?
Are you an actor that moves the body? Can you choose to play a different role?
Is there an experienced that is outside the experience?can you find a gap between you and a sensation? Is there a gap between you and a thought?
Dig here and write what you see.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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conrad
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby conrad » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:13 pm

Thanks Ilona for your patience. I appreciate your help and questions.
I will begin digging deeper into this and report back as soon as revelations occur.
Thank again!



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conrad
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby conrad » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:03 pm

Dear Ilona

Been digging deeper and here comes the answers to the wonderful questions.

Is there an actor inside the body playing a role?

That is not the realization. Things happen just as naturally as a butterfly flaps its wings without a actor inside. The role is played autonomously.

When you look at other bodies, are there actors inside?

No, it’s not what’s observed and experienced. There aren’t anyone inside pulling the strings like on a puppet. There isn’t any need for something to control what is happening. What is observed is that bodies are moving around doing lots of different things. Taking part in a story. All without assistance.

Are you an actor that moves the body?

Haha no. The body that writes this doesn’t need anybody to control or decide what to write. It happens as effortless as the heart beats and the cells are dividing. And by the way, who would have the energy and overview to run a body of 100000 of simultaneous processes.

Can you choose to play a different role?

There’s no one to choose anything. It’s a story unfolding. Can the story change direction? Yes, but that’s only because that’s part of the story itself.

Is there an experienced that is outside the experience?

No there isn’t anyone experiencing this. Yes there’s eyes, ears etc. sensing the world but there’s nobody experiencing this.

can you find a gap between you and a sensation?

Is there a gap between you and a thought? Er der en adskillelse mellem dig og en tanke?

The last two questions were really difficult. Why? Asking if there’s a gap between the thought of me and another thought/sensation just didn’t make sense at all. That is to say if there’s a gap between thoughts and or sensations.

Again big appreciation for the guidance!

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conrad
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby conrad » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:09 pm

Sorry about the danish text inside the answer. Translating everything to native in order to fully understand the questions. The precise meaning of every word is very important. Danish lacks a lot of words so finding the precise danish word can be troublesome.

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Re: Go with the flow

Postby Ilona » Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:40 pm

Great work!
Now let’s take it a bit further. What is a body itself and how is body experienced. Is body the experiencer or the experienced? And can you see that label body is put over sensations? There are sensations we call a hand or a nose or digestion or sleep.. at the end of what labels point to are sensations.

With eyes closed, without memory and thinking, what is here? Is there a body? And what size is it? What colour is it? Where is the line between the body and out there? What is the actual experience of ‘the body’?

And with eyes open, is there inside and outside of body, just looking at the colour and shapes, is there anything that suggest that there is a line between inside and outside?

When a sound is heard, is it body that hears it?
When a good is tasted, is there a body that tastes it?

Explore, have fun with this and write soon! Keep on great work

Love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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conrad
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby conrad » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:34 am

Dear Ilona

Wonderful questions and what an exciting experience it is to unravel the truth. It was indeed hard work to get to the realization of what body is in connection to “me”.

Q
Is body the experiencer or the experienced?

A
The body is experienced.


Q
With eyes closed, without memory and thinking, what is here? Is there a body? And what size is it? What colour is it? Where is the line between the body and out there? What is the actual experience of ‘the body’?

A
The body is without form, it’s neither big or small. It hasn’t any color. The body is limitless and there is no separation between body and external.
Perceiving the body is like like pulsating energy of warmth.


Q
And with eyes open, is there inside and outside of body, just looking at the colour and shapes, is there anything that suggest that there is a line between inside and outside?

A
With eyes open nothing is changed. Hands, feet etc. are labels and are sensations. Sensations are not me, just as thoughts and feelings aren’t me either. There isn’t any border between inside and outside.


Q
When a sound is heard, is it body that hears it?
When a good is tasted, is there a body that tastes it?

A
I’m not the body, but I have disposition of this body to experience reality. Yes, the body catches the sounds and tastes but it doesn’t experience the these things. The body can react to sounds and tastes. The body can pass on sensations, feelings and thoughts. It’s like a radio. An advanced radio of course.

Need to work more with the last question as that’s particularly troublesome.

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conrad
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby conrad » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:43 am

Dear Ilona,

Had to work hard with these questions, as they distorted the perception of reality:

Q
When a sound is heard, is it body that hears it?
When a good is tasted, is there a body that tastes it?

A
Tried hard to question this several times from lots of different angels. The experience that led to the most meaningful answer is this: The body is like a sense it self. An instrument to explore reality with a human touch. From my point of view, the body with all its senses (sensors) use the input it get to stay out of trouble or get into trouble :) But the overall meaningfulness of these experiences become part of the story of life.

I think the biggest obstacle for anyone trying to realize that "we (or more advanced, everything) are one", is that its very hard to surrender to the greatness of this perspective. "How can little I be something very different and so enormous as the source it self? I'm not worthy and must be a megalomaniac to just believing this". Also this whole God and us perspective is preventing the easy acceptance of the truth.

Next obstacle is the visual 3D world where everything is measured in distances, when in fact there aren't any distance between anything. What is the distance between thoughts and senses? What is the distance between the Sun and the Earth? What is the distance between you and I? None, since I'm everything there is. Everything is connected and happening right now, in timelessness, but with a beautiful and exciting direction.

Hope to hear from you soon. And thanks again - this is truly wonderful!

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Re: Go with the flow

Postby Ilona » Sun Sep 16, 2018 2:00 pm

Thank you for answer and taking time to ponder! Yes, it is distorted to think that this little i is everything. While there is nothing there to be everything, other than a thought about it. I’m everything there is can become a disease of grandiosity.
Try this angle:

This is called bahyia sutra and you can play with it and see what it is pointing at

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
between the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.


Write what you notice after a few days looking at everything through this angle.
Love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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conrad
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby conrad » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:06 pm

Dear Ilona,

I really enjoyed this Bahyia text. It took some effort to understand the message but once I did, things started to unfold. The simplicity is astounding.

Really seeing that there is no one inside the body and that there never has been. This whole belief of centered belonging is fading away, realization by realization. Since the “I of me” is nonexistent so is the separation from the outside. There’s really no point in the separation. There isn’t anyone inside or outside. All that there is is this present moment where everything is finely knitted together. There’s no space between anything. All is really one big happy family

It’s like an old movie casted on a screen. Sounds, images and motion is melted together in one experience, frame by frame.

Ilona, that’s what I see.



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Ilona
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby Ilona » Fri Oct 05, 2018 2:06 pm

Wonderful! Thank you for sharing and sorry for delay with response. Yes, sounds that you got what bahyia sutra is saying.
What changed?
What’s stays the same?
Is there any doubt about the nature of the separate self?

Love your way.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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conrad
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Re: Go with the flow

Postby conrad » Sun Oct 07, 2018 1:42 pm

Dear Ilona,

No need to apologize. I really am very grateful for your help and guidance. Couldn’t have made it without your help.

What changed?
Its like everything and nothing has changed at the same time. What has always been the truth has revealed itself, in ways that are so meaningful that it doesn’t seem like a change has happened at all. It’s just presents itself and the acceptance is without resistance. Of course it changes everything but it was always meant to be.

What’s stays the same?
This human life, the existence of friends and family, jobs, finances are here as they have always been. Although people seem more fragile and more concerned about life than I used to remember. People also seem to care so much about what others are doing and saying. Or have a huge interest in themselves. It doesn’t make sense. I wish I was able to help them to just see what all this is about. To see the simplicity of existence.

Is there any doubt about the nature of the separate self?
No not at all. What has been seen can’t be unseen. That old fairytale is just straight up laughable. There isn’t any fairytale - just this present moment where everything is just perfect as it has always been- if you know how to look.

Thank you so much!!!

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Re: Go with the flow

Postby Ilona » Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:22 pm

Omg! How wonderful to read your words...
yes indeed, the fairy tale is a cosmic joke. It’s strange to think back and see that it was believed to be reality. :)
Welcome to the real.

Are you ready for our final questions?

Love and hugs
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


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