None

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Jay7
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None

Postby Jay7 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:42 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
Well. Thoughts happen, emotions happen, everything happens and there is witnessing. "I" can see I am not the thoughts, emotions, experiences, a past, a future, etc. And I understand deeply that from my name, to the experiences, the family, the society, other people told me who I am, so how can that self be real or really me?

What are you looking for at LU?
Someone to talk too about the shift in perspective I had. It was as shift. Things come from within and there is no other is the best summary. Watching the mind project all its contents on the outside and not taking anything personally because its impersonal.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I dont expect anything. See what happens. Just share my experience and what shifted and gain more clarity and understanding and possibly open up to other idea's with like minded people. Thats why im here.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

years of seeking, therapy, new age stuff, and self inquiry, meditation.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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MichaelD
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Re: None

Postby MichaelD » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:41 am

Hello Jay7,

I've read your introduction and would love to work with you.

Do read, if you haven't already, all the guidelines and disclaimers on the Gate and check out the 'quote' method. Let me know if you have any problems.

Typically, I will ask a series of questions and or ask you to do various exercises and I hope you will answer from your direct and actual experience as honestly as you can.

From your introduction it is clear that you want to see and to 'know' so I needn't really mention not digressing into abstractions and theory.

Please let me know if this is all ok with you.

Click on the spanner/wrench symbol at the bottom and select subscribe in order to receive email notification of my posts.

Yours,

Michael.

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Jay7
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Re: None

Postby Jay7 » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:30 pm

Hi Michael,
thanks for your reply. Yes i understand. I think I'm subscribed at the bottom so should get your mails. Thanks for offering to work with me. Let me know when your ready to get started.
Jay

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MichaelD
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Re: None

Postby MichaelD » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:09 pm

Hi Jay,

Key to this process is looking directly at your experience, noticing, (avoiding intellectualization) and reporting honestly.

Crucial to your looking (like with so many things in life) is having the right attitude and this is what we will now address.

I would like you to do two things please:

Firstly, can you identify what your expectations are and briefly write them for me.

And

Secondly, can you also tell me any reservations, fears, or possible obstacles that may hinder you.

We will then address whatever comes up which will be a bit like clearing the decks, or emptying the cup!

The aim is so that you begin looking with a sense of open curiosity free from preconceptions of any kind. Also, let’s try and post every day and if we are unable to for a couple of days out of consideration let’s notify each other accordingly. That way we can create a continuity and momentum.

Enjoy the process.

Michael

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Jay7
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Re: None

Postby Jay7 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:02 pm

Hi Michael,
I guess my expectations are to is to see for myself the full validity of no self.

I think the major obstacles are like you said avoid intellecualizing it and not trying to force it to happen with mind or doubt the experiences. Get away from reading about experiences of other people.

Idk this is where i would like to talk about the shift in perspective that happened. There is this experience that im living where my past story is no longer relevant. And actually seeing the ego making up stories in myself and "others." Its like seeing so much of these stories are just stories and create suffering thats not needed. I'm trying to get a grasp on what happened as it was fairly recent. Its like things are very impersonal and the mind just projects all of its stuff out on other things to avoid ownership? And with this is pretty clear, very clear that other people are merely reflections of myself. I've been confused by some of this, this is where i need a guide or mentor. This just happened, i didnt do anything. My experience is there is still a ego but its not personal. Like, its not gone but i feel the unreality of it and the stories it plays and gets involved with as just that stories. It feels like the percpetion changed buy the life story is exactly the same.

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Jay7
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Re: None

Postby Jay7 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:16 pm

also wanted to add. The experience was like something snapped in the mind. The inner fight was seen for what it was, a inner fight. Like, realizing the only thing that was in conflict, was myself, in the mind. I had hours and hours of just sitting without that resistance and when things come up, its immediately known its a "inner" thing not a outward thing. What enters and leaves my awareness is up to me and nobody has any control over. Its been confusing, had some doubts, why I came here. Really its just things are really impersonal. And if the attention is turned outward theres goign to be suffering. If its inward, which is the default, its not going to be based on other people, events, and all that, things may occur but the impact and ownership are vastly different. Doubts are coming up and not sure whats really up. Its been peaceful but a bit disorientating and not sure about the whole "ego death" thing cause i def still have a ego.

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MichaelD
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Re: None

Postby MichaelD » Sun Jul 08, 2018 5:43 pm

Hi Jay,

Thank you for your extensive and detailed post - I really appreciate it.

Really we have a choice here. I can either just start to get to grips with what you are trying to communicate but we don't have any build up of a shared common language yet or I can start you at the beginning and take it from there.

My gut feeling is that as a big shift has already occurred you want to jump in at the deep end - which I can understand!

This is what I propose then:

I will start to dialogue with you on the basis of what you have just written but if we get in a tangle we don't worry about it but just drop that approach and start at the beginning.

Is that ok with you?

It is usual to just follow up a few points - that you then look at, or I give you an excercise to do or whatever so don't be concerned that I don't respond to everything you have said.

Also when you respond to my post can you use the quote function (as I will from here on in). There is a tutorial on the Gate page and you will find it is easy I am sure.
The experience was like something snapped in the mind. The inner fight was seen for what it was, a inner fight. Like, realizing the only thing that was in conflict, was myself, in the mind. I had hours and hours of just sitting without that resistance and when things come up, its immediately known its a "inner" thing not a outward thing.

That sound significant and lovely but tell me what is the difference between inner and outer?
Can a difference be found in the direct experience of now?
What enters and leaves my awareness is up to me and nobody has any control over.
What is the 'you' that has awareness?

Do 'you' have any control over what enters awareness.
Doubts are coming up and not sure whats really up. Its been peaceful but a bit disorientating and not sure about the whole "ego death" thing cause i def still have a ego.
Yes a big shift is likely to be disorientating so notice the peace and stillness. Do not worry as there will be greater clarity and a settling as you get used to new perspectives.
My experience is there is still a ego but its not personal. Like, its not gone but i feel the unreality of it and the stories it plays and gets involved with as just that stories. It feels like the percpetion changed buy the life story is exactly the same.

Fantastic. There is clear insight here but do tell me what this ego is please.

That really was the deep end.

Seems a bit brutal since we have only just met!! but do enjoy looking at experience (not thinking) and report back whenever you feel ready.

All good wishes,

Michael

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Jay7
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Re: None

Postby Jay7 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 9:20 pm

Hi Michael,
Thank you for answering! I'm going to be away the next few days so if i don't respond right away. Trying to figure out how to use the quotes....So i just typed it for now.

"That sound significant and lovely but tell me what is the difference between inner and outer?
Can a difference be found in the direct experience of now?"
There is no difference. Its all a reflection of "I' in awareness even the me that is of the mind and the ego stories. Why I said i see myself in others. There is no difference only in the appearances and presentation.

"What is the 'you' that has awareness? Do you have any control over what enters awareness"
the "me" in that awareness is a reflection of the mind. Great question. The me "feels" (not emotional) like its in that space. And no I dont not have any control over what enters the awareness at all. This is also where it feels like the illusion of free will is. The me doesnt control anything. Things just happen on their own.

"Yes a big shift is likely to be disorientating so notice the peace and stillness. Do not worry as there will be greater clarity and a settling as you get used to new perspectives"
Yeah there is a peace and stillness thats always there. Its the core of it. Yeah. Its defineltey different.

"Fantastic. There is clear insight here but do tell me what this ego is please."
a collection of thoughts and beliefs that becomes stories in the mind. I guess whats happening is witnessing the mind Michael? I feel myself as awarenss and the inner and outer are alike but that also includes seeing the mind and the egos reflection in that awareness? Its hard to communicate this in a way, i'm sure you know that. Using words like I and me and all that can appear something but i needs to be used to communicate even though there isn't much assocation with it. "I" thoughts, ego thoughts do come up but they are just seen as they are and not paid attention too. Somewhere on the site it was said, "there is only hearing, only seeing, only feeling, only thoughts and they all happen on their own." When i read that, it was totally clear like i INSTANT recognition of that fact. There is a ego in this awareness but its not important. Honestly, im not sure where "i am" at or if this new experience just needs validation and the mind is looking for answers? When i say new experience i mean new perspective of seeing things. I guess the mind wants to validate what happened and all that? I did read a couple short books after this change and it was werid. It was like instead of the person telling me about the experience, the person was telling me what i was already experiencing. I guess the doubts are coming in michael from the ego and it wants to know whats up or where it stand and all of that. I feel like that has to be surrendered yet feel this is whats going on at the moment.

Thank you for being my guide and for your time. Sorry about the quote thing, I need to figure that out, short on time atm.
Jay

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MichaelD
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Re: None

Postby MichaelD » Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:50 pm

HI Jay,

Thanks for your post.

Am a bit cream crackered so will respond tomorrow.

Best wishes,

Michael

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Jay7
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Re: None

Postby Jay7 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:31 pm

Thanks for your post.

Am a bit cream crackered so will respond tomorrow.


Not a problem Michael. Bit busy too.


Jay

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MichaelD
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Re: None

Postby MichaelD » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:55 pm

Hi Jay,

You have learnt to use the quote function. Thanks.
"That sound significant and lovely but tell me what is the difference between inner and outer?
Can a difference be found in the direct experience of now?"

There is no difference.
Fantastic.
"What is the 'you' that has awareness? Do you have any control over what enters awareness"

No I dont not have any control over what enters the awareness at all. This is also where it feels like the illusion of free will is. The me doesnt control anything. Things just happen on their own.
To see that there is no control and that free will is illusion is outstanding and indicates seeing no-self. Wonderful.

Yeah there is a peace and stillness thats always there. Its the core of it. Yeah. Its defineltey different.
Likewise, sound great.
Do tell me what this ego is please."

A collection of thoughts and beliefs that becomes stories in the mind.
Again - Wonderful.
"I" thoughts, ego thoughts do come up but they are just seen as they are and not paid attention too. Somewhere on the site it was said, "there is only hearing, only seeing, only feeling, only thoughts and they all happen on their own." When i read that, it was totally clear like i INSTANT recognition of that fact.
Again this is bang on for realising no-self.


However some parts of what you write I don't understand but as I said earlier this may be because I am not fully dialed in to how you use language in order to express experience.
Its all a reflection of "I' in awareness even the me that is of the mind and the ego stories. Why I said i see myself in others. There is no difference only in the appearances and presentation.
What is a reflection of "I" in experience?

Can an "I" in awareness be found in direct experience?
I feel myself as awarenss and the inner and outer are alike but that also includes seeing the mind and the egos reflection in that awareness
What self do you feel as awareness?

What is the mind and egos reflection in awareness?

Can anything be noticed other than perception and thought labelling / commentary?



Jay, you have mentioned several times that you are in a hurry. Please do not be. Relax.

Obviously this is very important / life changing. Please take your time, choose words carefully. Take as much time as you need.

Sit with the questions; really explore your direct, in the moment expreience. If you have to use the word ego again (and it's fine if you do!) please explain exactly what you mean by it as I don't find it a useful construct and don't really no what folk mean by it.

You are in a great and fortunate place. Relax and enjoy looking / exploring.

With love,

Michael

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Jay7
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Re: None

Postby Jay7 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:29 pm

What is a reflection of "I" in experience?

Can an "I" in awareness be found in direct experience?
I see reflections of me in the experience of just awareness. Hmmmm…good question, I would say yes. There is a direct experience to the ego self in "I" or awareness. Yet there is this underlying feeling its from the awareness itself.
What self do you feel as awareness?

What is the mind and egos reflection in awareness?

Can anything be noticed other than perception and thought labelling / commentary?
im guessing my own mind? LIke witnessing my own ego but seeing it throught the lens of awareness. Geat question, i will have to get back t you on that.
Jay, you have mentioned several times that you are in a hurry. Please do not be. Relax.

Obviously this is very important / life changing. Please take your time, choose words carefully. Take as much time as you need.

Sit with the questions; really explore your direct, in the moment expreience. If you have to use the word ego again (and it's fine if you do!) please explain exactly what you mean by it as I don't find it a useful construct and don't really no what folk mean by it
.


I'm in no hurry. I dont have much time to respond because im on the road for a few days. Just checking my emails. I just feel like everything is really impersonal. Like when interacting with other people it doesnt even matter what they think about me, what they say, judge etc. It doesnt matter, not in like a "i dont care" attitude , it simply bears no relevence to me. IT feels like there is nothing to protect or defend and there is this feeling to just let it all in, experiences, thoughts, emotions, life. It feels like there is no need to judge (because its seen im really judging myself) nor feel judged because other people just have their own projections etc and it simply doesnt matter. Its funny cause I feel MORE connected to people now than I did before. More open and accepting after i had the shift. Before it, i felt more self judgment and judgment from other people really mattered to me. I just feel this background stillness all the time and everthing appears there, myself included (ego or perosnal self and others). I also feel like Im not anybody and again there is nobody to defend. Regarding the word "ego", i mean my personal sense of self. LIke my personal sense of self, how i'm viewed and how i present myself. Also the story of my life, beliefs, attitudes, etc. Yeah, its important to sit with this and take time. What i have been trying to do, sort it out, there is no rush, its just new and different. Trying to sit with it and articulate it to the best of my ability. I guess im seeing the no self in me and thus in other people. And I'm not judging the experience its just open and allowed. Im not in fear of it, its relaxing. When it first happened it was so opening i didnt want to do anything but sit with it and was wondering what are my goals and all that without the desire that comes from a personal self thats driven and feels so real. Idk, still feeling out this experience, reading and reflecting. Thank you for your questons michael they are really good. I am back home thursday night.

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Jay7
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Re: None

Postby Jay7 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:50 pm

One more thing. In writing this , it just feels like empty space, void, nothingness behind the "scenes" of appearances. And everything just happens on its own in that space. It feels like there is this underlying stillness and things just feel really impersonal to the person called "jay." Like, if someone was to make a comment on how bad I looked, judged me, or went off on me, emotions would happen, thoughts would happen etc but it would be clearly seen that is has NOTHING to do with me and everything to do with the one making such claims. I guess you could say its a no self or whatever cause what im feeling doesnt take anything personally. I used to feel more personal identification and really cared what other people thought of me and would defend myself in the past. So something def dropped or happened to not identify with the personal self. I feel the "I or awareness as this presence FEELING (not emotional) but stillness yet this personal self along with other personal selves interact IN this presence. Again , yet its very impersonal (sorry for repeating that again). The mind still has personal thoughts, feelings, etc, and this hasn't changed my outer life in any way at all. Still have the conditioning, the challenges. Its just that they arent as important, not dwelled on and do what needs to be done but with the understanding I am not in control.

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MichaelD
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Re: None

Postby MichaelD » Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:58 pm

Hi Jay,

This is largely the same as your previous replies. Some fantastic description that indicates that you have seen no-self and some parts that to me make no sense at all!

What I am going to do is send you the set of final questions that we usually send a client when we think they have seen. It will help with clarity and we can deal with any remaining confusions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

If you answer please take your time and answer as clearly as possible, that really helps.

You can take them one at a time, in pairs or any other way that suits you.

Enjoy!

Michael

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Jay7
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Re: None

Postby Jay7 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:03 pm

Hi Michael,
Yeah, I seem to be repeating myself, sorry. This is just the theme of the experience. I will try and answer your questions as best possible!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is in the experience of relating and functioning with other personal selves. Yeah, the personal self, meaning "me" is used to interact in the world and all that. However, its not and cant be seperate from what I call now Presence, it cant be. It feels like its just a function of the mind again, to relate. And no its not needed. Reflecting on this question Lao Tzu comes to mind, "know the personal yet keep the the impersonal."
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now
The illusion is there is no real seperate self. The ego, or seperate self is developed as a coping mechanism, a learned response from other people, my family, the society. Its the learned way to inteact with the world. Yet, stillness, presence is what we really are before this can take form. Nothing happens from this place, there is no past, nothing, but just whats happening. The seperate self screws up that moment via the mind by creating images of itself, beliefs, expectations, and the like and becomes the primary focus and thinks it has free will lol. There is no free will. I didnt chose my name, my family, when and where i was born, my life experiences, not even really coming to this site. I didnt chose my conditioning, cause even in that, there can be no free will because that was given to me, this seperate self. It works to be the best ME possible, get all it can, including enlightnment. It thinks that enlightnement will end suffering, be something better, why most people, myself included, become seekers. Its basially a false self thats put in place to mainain a story and keep that story going and builds on itself so nothing can interupt it.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Its freeing because i'm no longer really identitied with this life story. Its like wiped out in a way, esp the past. Its like there is no fixation of who hurt me, what happened to me, whats going to happen. There isn't constant voices in the mind going and even if there is, its seen right away thats its not real and getting involved in any way will just set up suffering. Its just a shift in perspective and nothing special at all, its just seeing from a different point of view. Its impersonal. I guess i can say there is nobody to take it personally.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I came to this site to validate my experience and not even entirely sure about it to be honest. Just writing what i experience. If its not it, is it, or whatever, doesn't even really matter to me. Just a bit confused since what i call the shift. There was nothing I did that pushed it. The personal self cant make it happen. The ego wants it but only for itself. I guess enough suffering , reflecting, and something just changed on its own. I looked because i was tired of suffering, trying through all of MY will to heal, get things done, be a sucess, a life plan, and something else had other idea's. Its been many years of looking, reading, and the like.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience
.

To the first part there is none, period. The mind (ego, seperate self) leads on that it makes the decisions, has the intentions, can plan and do things on its own accord and have free will. The personal self just shows up for things and in now way has any say in what goes on. Thats been the biggest relief and eye opener. Looking back at this life, deeply, i realized much of what has gone on was NEVER in "my" control at all, never was. All efforts to make it a certain way was a attempt in futiliy. Idk what makes things happen. Its not the perosnal self or ego. stillness, emptiness, i know thats there at the foundation and things appear from that. I have no idea how it works. Its beyond my mind. I can only say i feel a deep silence and stillness, ,presence. I am personally not responsible, life is. Things need to be done, life needs to be lived, disease can happen, all the stuff of life but still this doesnt imply a doer. It simply means acting out of conditoning thats still there , that was not free will to begin with. I could write a book on ego dissapointments and what i thought my life should look like, what i should be doing, and typing this how happy i should be. I was recently looking for a new job and was looking at our employment center for a while. I "randomly" met a guy and we talked for a half hour, someone i dont even know, its looking like i got a new gig. The apartment i am currently renting, my father happened to know the renter and without checking on me (this was a while ago) just let me have it.


So i came here just to try and understand more of this experience. This is the new template from which i see life etc and sorting it out. Not sure if this is where others are, or what, that really doesnt matter, just looking at all this. Michael, i apologize if i kept repeating some things, its just now where i am at, its what comes up for now.

Jay


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