no self

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:56 pm

Is there ever a break in the flow of thoughts?
No. I was surprised to find this.
Thoughts are truly hard working…. ;-)
I am not sure if 'everything is possible' in my thoughts. I may again be getting confused as regards thoughts and feelings but my upbringing didn't develop an 'anything is possible' vibe. Instead, it developed restrictive thoughts and feelings.
Can’t you daydream of flying on a dragon or inventing the cure for cancer?
Doesn’t it seem as if thoughts have power, at least several meters of book try telling us how we can influence our future? This “create your own world” books?
I think therefore I am????
If there is no ‘I’ as controller, thinker, decider, what we try to prove here, how can the ‘I’ stop a thought?
It looks like it can't.
Did you find this ’I’ anywhere when directly looking?
How can something which is a figment of mind/aka thoughts stop something or do something?
The ‘I’ is either an existing something or not.
This is more difficult to answer using solely AE. Maybe because thoughts never stop, ie. they are ever present, they appear to be so important and therefore that there must be an important 'I' controlling them. All my other answers to this question depend upon thought...
A little bit of confusion here too.
This is a cool but slightly confusing thing, we can explore thoughts with thoughts.
And yes, they never stop telling this self referencing story.
How many thoughts include ‘I, me, mine’ in 5 minutes? Find out.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:25 pm

I am not sure if 'everything is possible' in my thoughts. I may again be getting confused as regards thoughts and feelings but my upbringing didn't develop an 'anything is possible' vibe. Instead, it developed restrictive thoughts and feelings.

Can’t you daydream of flying on a dragon or inventing the cure for cancer?
Doesn’t it seem as if thoughts have power, at least several meters of book try telling us how we can influence our future? This “create your own world” books?
I think therefore I am????
No, I really don't think like this. I sometimes have night dreams in which I fly (which is wonderful) and sometimes 'think big' so I guess this applies to me some of the time. But I prefer Derrida's The Animal that Therefore I am to Descartes I think therefore I am!
If there is no ‘I’ as controller, thinker, decider, what we try to prove here, how can the ‘I’ stop a thought?
It looks like it can't.

Did you find this ’I’ anywhere when directly looking?
How can something which is a figment of mind/aka thoughts stop something or do something?
The ‘I’ is either an existing something or not.
I agree completely that the 'I' does not exist. My previous reply was a little understated.
This is more difficult to answer using solely AE. Maybe because thoughts never stop, ie. they are ever present, they appear to be so important and therefore that there must be an important 'I' controlling them. All my other answers to this question depend upon thought...
A little bit of confusion here too.

This is a cool but slightly confusing thing, we can explore thoughts with thoughts.
And yes, they never stop telling this self referencing story.
How many thoughts include ‘I, me, mine’ in 5 minutes? Find out.
I looked for 5 minutes and found that thoughts tend to flow from to the other, ie. are continuous rather than a series of separate thoughts. And 'I', 'me' etc. ran throughout all of the continuous thoughts.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:52 pm

I looked for 5 minutes and found that thoughts tend to flow from to the other, ie. are continuous rather than a series of separate thoughts. And 'I', 'me' etc. ran throughout all of the continuous thoughts.
Almost all thoughts include an ‘I, me, mine’ in a direct or indirect way.

Could you describe what exactly you observed that gives the idea that thoughts are continuous?
What exactly do you mean by it?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:47 pm

Could you describe what exactly you observed that gives the idea that thoughts are continuous?
What exactly do you mean by it?
When I look I don't experience each individual thought as having a tight and clear boundary around it. Many thoughts 'bleed' into each other - if you know what I mean by this? Even 'new' thoughts don't seem to have an individual and discrete existence. They flow rather than appear individually.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:59 pm

Many thoughts 'bleed' into each other - if you know what I mean by this?
Do you mean by this that thoughts are connected in some way so that one thought follows up on anothers content?
That would mean that one thought 'knows' of the other, 'knows' the content of another thought? Right?
Is this so? Where do you find the connection in DE?
Even 'new' thoughts don't seem to have an individual and discrete existence. They flow rather than appear individually.
They seem to but is it true?
These are all thoughts 'telling' what thoughts are like. What of this can you experience directly?

Just to ask, can a thought be heard, smelled, felt, seen or tasted?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:34 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Many thoughts 'bleed' into each other - if you know what I mean by this?

Do you mean by this that thoughts are connected in some way so that one thought follows up on anothers content?
That would mean that one thought 'knows' of the other, 'knows' the content of another thought? Right?
Is this so? Where do you find the connection in DE?
What I 'saw' in AE is that individual thoughts do not have a discrete boundary. There are not separate thoughts.I don't deduce from this that one thought 'knows' the content of the other. Not at all.
Even 'new' thoughts don't seem to have an individual and discrete existence. They flow rather than appear individually.

They seem to but is it true?
These are all thoughts 'telling' what thoughts are like. What of this can you experience directly?
As above, that each thought is not an individual entity. It is not one unit, then another etc...
Just to ask, can a thought be heard, smelled, felt, seen or tasted?
No. But nevertheless can be experienced.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:25 am

Very good! :-)

Here something to mull over:
Are thoughts actually needed to tell when one is aware of a sound, colour, smell, thought, taste or sensation?

Let’s have a look at time:
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Take your time, have a close look again and answer each question.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:22 pm

Are thoughts actually needed to tell when one is aware of a sound, colour, smell, thought, taste or sensation?
No. we experience sound, colour etc. without the label provided by thought.
Let’s have a look at time:
There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
No.
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
No.
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
No.
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
This can't be discerned in AE.
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
No.
How long does the ‘now’ last?
Until you die/ forever.
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
Can't discern this from AE.
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
Never in AE. Thought is needed to provide the label of 'the past.
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
Nothing -doesn't exist.
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
There is no actual experience of time in AE - it is always the present. There are lots of thoughts about time, e.g. what time is it? What time does the show start?

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:45 pm

Exellent!
Until you die/ forever.
Erm, is this your direct experience or an assumption = thought?

So no time as it was thought to be.
No self as it was thought to be.
How does it feel?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:34 am

Hi Jadzia,
Until you die/ forever.
Erm, is this your direct experience or an assumption = thought?
It's a thought. I was trying to find a way of saying that in AE the present is 'forever' - but that makes reference to the trajectory of time.
So no time as it was thought to be.
No self as it was thought to be.
How does it feel?
It feel great. Liberating. I feel much more calm and relaxed as a result.
Thank You Jadzia!

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:39 am

It's a thought. I was trying to find a way of saying that in AE the present is 'forever' - but that makes reference to the trajectory of time.
Language is tricky, it is dualistic and a lot of precision is needed when formulating.
If something doesn't sound clear I'll ask a question or two. ;-)
It feel great. Liberating. I feel much more calm and relaxed as a result.
Thank You Jadzia!
You are welcome. This sounds wonderful.

Have a closer look at memory and future thoughts.
By now it is easy to see for you that the content of these thoughts cannot be found in AE, right?
And still there might be the idea that the content of a memory thought refers to something that has really happened and the content of a future thought refers to something that will happen.

Have a look at these thoughts.
Are they any different than other thoughts?
And is the idea about them right?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:41 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Just one thing before I begin the post proper - I am going on a short walking holiday starting Saturday the 4th - in 2 days time. I will have access to the internet so can I suggest - please - that we continue with the process but that it sometimes might take me a little longer to reply? I am suggesting this because I'll have lots of time to reflect whilst walking. I'll be back home on Sunday the 12th. What do you think?
Have a closer look at memory and future thoughts.
By now it is easy to see for you that the content of these thoughts cannot be found in AE, right?
Yes.
And still there might be the idea that the content of a memory thought refers to something that has really happened and the content of a future thought refers to something that will happen.
Have a look at these thoughts.
Are they any different than other thoughts?
And is the idea about them right?
Using thought to look at this, the content of a memory thought has some relationship to things that have really happened. When I think about my childhood, the place I grew up and some of the events that happened can be verified - some by actual experience -e.g. looking in the present at the place - and some by photographs and some by other people having the same memory. As regards future thought, there is no basis for thinking that this refers to something that will happen.
Thoughts about the present and those about the past (memories) are very similar in that they are attempting to do a similar 'job' - providing a semblance of rational order and explanation. Sometimes doing this by providing labels/names and concepts. And sometimes getting things very wrong. And also always telling stories about 'I'. 'me' etc.
The only difference is that memories relate to the past. They very much occur in the present but relate to stories told by oneself and others about the past.
So, as regards your second question above, I am not sure! I am fairly sure that having a thought about the future can't 'make it happen' but as regards memories, there is some relationship to what really happened but the content of the memory may be inaccurate or completely wrong. The memory takes place in the present so is reliant upon previous memories of yours and others - some of which will be story-telling.

I think I am missing something here.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:38 pm

Reflecting while walking sounds good! You’ll write whenever you can, that’s fine with me.
Using thought to look at this, the content of a memory thought has some relationship to things that have really happened.

Really? How is it known that they refer to “things that have really happened”?
Can you find any of the “things that have really happened” right now in your actual experience?
Can you find yesterdays meal in your actual experience?
So how is it known that you had it?
When I think about my childhood, the place I grew up and some of the events that happened can be verified - some by actual experience -e.g. looking in the present at the place - and some by photographs and some by other people having the same memory.
Hm, this would mean that there is a past, or? A past to share?
Do you find the past anywhere else than in thoughts? As part of the story?

Photos: how is it known what is shown in the picture, who the people are, what they are doing, what else is on it?
Think of showing holiday pictures to a friend, an interested friend will ask a lot of “what is that”-questions. Show it to a toddler and the little tyke wouldn’t know where to start with the questions.
Thoughts about the present and those about the past (memories) are very similar in that they are attempting to do a similar 'job' - providing a semblance of rational order and explanation. Sometimes doing this by providing labels/names and concepts. And sometimes getting things very wrong. And also always telling stories about 'I'. 'me' etc.
The only difference is that memories relate to the past. They very much occur in the present but relate to stories told by oneself and others about the past.
Yes. The creation of the story, with history, now and possible future.
I am fairly sure that having a thought about the future can't 'make it happen' but as regards memories, there is some relationship to what really happened but the content of the memory may be inaccurate or completely wrong. The memory takes place in the present so is reliant upon previous memories of yours and others - some of which will be story-telling.
Yes, a thought can’t do anything, it ‘offers’ possibilities, well sort of.
"some of which will be story-telling" - Is only part of it story telling?

Memories are trickier, they ‘define’ who the ‘I’ is and directly point to identifications, these can be quite sticky.

So mull this over and have a look at the part of the story of ‘Paulie’ which is about who ’is’ this ‘Paulie’.
This is not about true or not true identifications, right or not right, that is unimportant.
With the ‘I’ being fictive, only appearing in a story created by thoughts, what about identifications?
What about “I grew up here” or “This is my old school”?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:01 am

Using thought to look at this, the content of a memory thought has some relationship to things that have really happened.
Really? How is it known that they refer to “things that have really happened”?
Can you find any of the “things that have really happened” right now in your actual experience?
Can you find yesterdays meal in your actual experience?
So how is it known that you had it?
A bit of confusion here - I thought we had agreed that the content of thoughts can not be seen in AE. So, that's why I used thought. If, however, you are asking me to use AE for this, no of course none of these things can be seen. As we already have said, there is no past in AE -only the present,
When I think about my childhood, the place I grew up and some of the events that happened can be verified - some by actual experience -e.g. looking in the present at the place - and some by photographs and some by other people having the same memory.
Hm, this would mean that there is a past, or? A past to share?
Do you find the past anywhere else than in thoughts? As part of the story?
No, as above. But if I use the actual experience of looking though in the present - in the place I grew up - some of the things I see fit with my memories of it.
Photos: how is it known what is shown in the picture, who the people are, what they are doing, what else is on it?
Think of showing holiday pictures to a friend, an interested friend will ask a lot of “what is that”-questions. Show it to a toddler and the little tyke wouldn’t know where to start with the questions.
Yes. Familiarity with the places and events as a result of story-telling memories means we know what is in the photograph.
.
Yes, a thought can’t do anything, it ‘offers’ possibilities, well sort of.
"some of which will be story-telling" - Is only part of it story telling?
Memories are all story-telling. I can't quite grasp this idea yet. Could you help me with it please?
Memories are trickier, they ‘define’ who the ‘I’ is and directly point to identifications, these can be quite sticky.
So mull this over and have a look at the part of the story of ‘Paulie’ which is about who ’is’ this ‘Paulie’.
This is not about true or not true identifications, right or not right, that is unimportant.
With the ‘I’ being fictive, only appearing in a story created by thoughts, what about identifications?
What about “I grew up here” or “This is my old school”?
The stories that I and others have thought and told about where I grew up are vast. I come from a poor working-class background and the neighbourhood where I was, with my family, between age 0-11 was very close-knit. I am aware I am now telling you a story Jadzia - one that is very close to my heart.
So, given that memory thoughts are constantly creating the 'I', and nothing of this past can be seen in AE, this strong identification I have with where I grew up is performing a restrictive role, an incarcerating one. It keeps me attached to a past that is actually a product of story-telling thoughts - from me and others. It is very difficult, emotionally, for me to accept this though given the very strong pull that this past has had on me - and particularly now I am older.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:15 am

A bit of confusion here - I thought we had agreed that the content of thoughts can not be seen in AE. So, that's why I used thought. If, however, you are asking me to use AE for this, no of course none of these things can be seen. As we already have said, there is no past in AE -only the present,
Right, the content of thought can't be found in AE.
We use thought to explain thought, yes, it is important to know what can be found in AE or not, everything else is story telling.
Are thoughts needed to experience anything? Are thoughts needed for seeing, feeling, hearing and so on?
No, as above. But if I use the actual experience of looking though in the present - in the place I grew up - some of the things I see fit with my memories of it.
You can place yourself in front of a house, the house can be seen in actual experience, everything else is added by thougth – like “I know this house since years”.
All in thoughts, all in the story.
The stories that I and others have thought and told about where I grew up are vast. I come from a poor working-class background and the neighbourhood where I was, with my family, between age 0-11 was very close-knit. I am aware I am now telling you a story Jadzia - one that is very close to my heart.
So, given that memory thoughts are constantly creating the 'I', and nothing of this past can be seen in AE, this strong identification I have with where I grew up is performing a restrictive role, an incarcerating one. It keeps me attached to a past that is actually a product of story-telling thoughts - from me and others. It is very difficult, emotionally, for me to accept this though given the very strong pull that this past has had on me - and particularly now I am older.
There is nothing wrong with having love for ‘your’ story, with looking at it with kindness and compassion. Nothing wrong with sharing it, or talking or writing about it.

Consider this:
The story can’t keep you attached, it is the belief in the story, which is a thought and another thought “The story keeps me attached”. Again all happening in a story, in thoughts.

Is it ‘your’ story? Is there an ‘I’ = ‘Paulie” other than in the story, in thoughts?
What about all the characters in all the other stories told?

How can one have an 'own' story? Wouldn't that point to separation?
There is no separation at all, really none.

Wouldn’t you like to have a look what is behind ‘story’, behind all stories?
What stays if the last idea about the ‘I’, ‘You’, ‘me’, ‘them’, if all the stories would fall away for a moment?

Again, let this sink in.
Even confusion is only happening in thought.

Love,
Jadzia


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