no self

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:41 am

I tried not to try!
Tricky stuff, right? This trying not to try......
Do you know the classic quote: “Don’t try, do it!” – go for it. ;-)

Observing thoughts is somewhat tricky, too, due to the speed they gallop around with. It needs perseverance and looking like a hawk to unravel their doing and to catch the moment they ‘claim’ “I decided on this because…”.

You’ve partly seen, partly presumed (“seems”, “I think….”) that the thought ‘claiming’ the decision came after the action.
Do you see without doubt that decisions happen without a decider, that the ‘I’ is not the decider?
If your are not sure, go on observing your thoughts and
Can a letter appearing in thoughts decide anything?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:31 am

Hi Jadzia,
I was being playful about not trying to try - it is tricky.
I do need a little more time to observe my thoughts - as regards when they appear...I'l do that!
Best,
Paul

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:08 am

and feedback to you..

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:54 pm

Do you see without doubt that decisions happen without a decider, that the ‘I’ is not the decider?
If your are not sure, go on observing your thoughts and
Can a letter appearing in thoughts decide anything?
I spent a long time today observing how things happen (It is difficult to find an appropriate language).
This is my best shot:

Something happens, something almost imperceptible. Within this 'space', a decision is made or an act begins to be carried out. Then, very soon after this, thoughts come along and give the decision/ act a label or labels. e.g. I decided to wash the dishes/ I am walking out of the house etc.

I am absolutely clear that there is no 'I' to direct all of this. So, to answer your last question above - No!

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:53 am

Isn’t this an amazing find?

Choosing happens, deciding happens.
No intent. No ‘I’ involved.
With no intention of the ‘I’ based on preferences, cultural habits or other habits, life simply happens, unfolds spontaneously.

How do you feel with this?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:05 pm

Isn’t this an amazing find?
Yes - very exciting! It feels like the beginning of the rest of my life.
Choosing happens, deciding happens.
No intent. No ‘I’ involved.
With no intention of the ‘I’ based on preferences, cultural habits or other habits, life simply happens, unfolds spontaneously.
Yes - this very thing frees me up so much.

How do you feel with this?
I feel wonderful.
Thank you Jadzia.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:06 am

Beautiful!

Let’s go a step further and see if an experiencer can be found.
We usually say “I hear”, “I smell”, “I taste” and so on. But is this so?

Close your eyes and spend some time listening to the various sounds around you, pay close attention to the actual experience of hearing, then allow your attention to rest on one particular sound, a clock ticking perhaps, or distant traffic, the washing machine, or a bird singing outside.

As you allow the experience of hearing to become the focus of your attention take a good look and see if you can determine any separate elements occurring within the actual experience - is there any evidence that there is a separate hearer that is hearing the sound?

Is there an actual experience of a hearer? Have a close look?
Or does the actual experience only consist of hearing?

There most certainly will be thoughts like “Of course there is a hearer, there simply must be hearer, there can't possibly be the hearing of a sound without a hearer to hear it!”
We strongly believe that there is a subject/object divide, but it really is just a belief, and it only takes a close inspection with a "beginner's mind" to see this.

So just for one moment let go of all preconceptions and allow yourself to consider the possibility that hearing really is all there is?

Take your time, repeat it as often as you like and share what you find.


Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:56 pm

Close your eyes and spend some time listening to the various sounds around you, pay close attention to the actual experience of hearing, then allow your attention to rest on one particular sound, a clock ticking perhaps, or distant traffic, the washing machine, or a bird singing outside.
I have had some time to spend on this today - sitting in the garden listening. I focused upon bird song.
As you allow the experience of hearing to become the focus of your attention take a good look and see if you can determine any separate elements occurring within the actual experience - is there any evidence that there is a separate hearer that is hearing the sound?
No.
Is there an actual experience of a hearer? Have a close look?
No
Or does the actual experience only consist of hearing?
Yes!
Take your time, repeat it as often as you like and share what you find.
I spent three hours on this exercise and couldn't find any evidence of a hearer - there was only the experience of hearing.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 am

Cool, sounds like beautiful three hours. :-)

You can do the same with any of the senses. Wanna have a look at feeling?

Close your eyes and spend some time feeling the various bodily sensations that present themselves. Pay close attention to the actual experience of feeling, then allow your attention to rest on one particular sensation, the feeling of your body in contact with the chair, your feet touching the floor, perhaps your hands on the upper legs or your eyes moving behind your eye lids.

And as you allow the experience of feeling that sensation to become the focus of your attention take a good look and see if you can determine any separate elements occurring within the actual experience - is there any evidence that there is a separate feeler that is feeling the sensation?

Is there an actual experience of a feeler? Or does the actual experience only consist of feeling?

"I, me, mine" just turn up in thoughts which are about something which can be experienced right now. You know you won’t find an additional entity to which the words refer to - with having a closer look you find that they are not necessary for the experience to happen.

Share how this works.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:46 pm

Close your eyes and spend some time feeling the various bodily sensations that present themselves. Pay close attention to the actual experience of feeling, then allow your attention to rest on one particular sensation, the feeling of your body in contact with the chair, your feet touching the floor, perhaps your hands on the upper legs or your eyes moving behind your eye lids.
And as you allow the experience of feeling that sensation to become the focus of your attention take a good look and see if you can determine any separate elements occurring within the actual experience - is there any evidence that there is a separate feeler that is feeling the sensation?

Is there an actual experience of a feeler? Or does the actual experience only consist of feeling?
No. The experience of feeling is like a universal one rather than an individual one. Something that my body is taking part in at that moment - but a universal feeling.
"I, me, mine" just turn up in thoughts which are about something which can be experienced right now. You know you won’t find an additional entity to which the words refer to - with having a closer look you find that they are not necessary for the experience to happen.
The experience happens without me or I.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:27 pm

Could you please describe to me what the sensation was you focused on?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:51 pm

My bum and upper legs on the sofa.

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:56 pm

Thank you.

You found that the experiencing of the sensation happened without ‘me, I’.

Please repeat the exercise and have a close look:
Where in the direct experience do you find “the body”?
And where to you find the ‘my’ in “my body”?

What is the difference for you between simply a feeling and an universal feeling? Please explain.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:52 pm

Please repeat the exercise and have a close look:
Where in the direct experience do you find “the body”?
And where to you find the ‘my’ in “my body”?
Actually, I don't - it is the sensation of the bum, upper legs and back touching the sofa that I experience.
What is the difference for you between simply a feeling and an universal feeling? Please explain.
It 'felt' like it was bigger than me. Not just an individual sensation. But I am willing to admit that this is probably a thought!

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:00 pm

Usually we identify with one or two senses more than with others. Feeling, physical experience, is thought to be connected with the body which whom identification can be very strong and for many of us it is the strongest identification.
It can be a bit trickier to have a close look because thoughts might feel rather real about this topic.
As usual looking like a hawk and precision will help.
Actually, I don't - it is the sensation of the bum, upper legs and back touching the sofa that I experience.
There are sensations. Wouldn’t it just be it? Sensation?
What about “bum, upper legs and back touching the sofa”?
Can a “bum” be felt? Can there be a direct experience of a “bum”? Or of a “Hinterteil”, of a “derriere” or “culo”?
These are all words for the same thing, different languages.
Why do you ‘feel’ a “bum” and not a “derriere”?
Play around with these different words and have a look.
It 'felt' like it was bigger than me. Not just an individual sensation. But I am willing to admit that this is probably a thought!
Thoughts are sneaky little thingies. So when you look do you just find a sensation, or a sensation and several thoughts or only thoughts?

Since there is no separation there can’t really be an “it” which is bigger than a “me”, “it” and “me” would have to be two different things for one being bigger than the other, right?
While the sensation, that what was felt might be accurate, “explaining” thoughts might not…….

Ponder about this and check sensations again and again in a leisurely way and have a “keen eye” on the appearing thoughts.

Love,
Jadzia


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