no self

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:37 pm

Thank You Jadzia.
I will find some spaces to really take my time while I am away.
I don't get this opportunity enough whilst at home.
Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:44 pm

Yes finding time is not always easy. Luckily LOOKING can be done inbetween, on the Go, too.

We are in no hurry here, this is a process which has it's own timing and allowing sinking in is good.

LOve,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:11 pm

Hi Jadzia,
The belief in a separate self is a habit and it takes time to get out of a well used and trained habit. Taking thoughts for face value is a habit too, it takes a bit of time. Patience is helpful and checking if the content of thought can be found in AE, too.
Yes.
The contours of my body - the outside of my skin - seem to be providing a boundary at the moment.
This is how it feels - like I am contained by my skin.

Has this been a real feeling, like in a physical sensation? Something which could be felt at that moment in AE?
Or has there been a thought: “This feels like I am contained by my skin”?
I would like to say that it was a thought BUT it did feel like a physical sensation - hence me using the phrase 'contours of my body' - I think I could feel the shape of my skin covering my body and presenting itself as a hard boundary to the world outside. I am completely open to the idea that it was a thought though...
Often the phrase “This feels like” is not used for something felt in AE but it is a phrase which turns up in thought without a real meaning. So have a look whenever “This feels like” turns up.
This is really interesting - it is a phrase I use a lot and it does seem to refer to lots of different situations and I have started to look at it when it comes up.
If one is contained by the skin of the body, that would mean that there is a separate ‘I’ and a body, and the ‘I’ either is the body or in the body, or?

Same here have a close look, a direct look at what you find right now.
Is there an ‘I’ in the body? Can you find it when looking with your senses?
Is the ‘I’ the body?
I can't see an 'I' in the body or the body as an 'I'.

I haven't seen a witness.
Did you find one with any other sense?
No.
There is awareness, noticing but is it a witness which is apart from the awareness, the noticing?
I don't quite understand this Jadzia. Do you mean my awareness/noticing? If so, I can't see the witness as separate from the awareness itself. It seems part of the same thing.

Best & Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:22 pm

If so, I can't see the witness as separate from the awareness itself. It seems part of the same thing.
So the witness is included and not separate from what is, watching from what seems to be an outside.
It will become clearer with the investigation going on.
I would like to say that it was a thought BUT it did feel like a physical sensation - hence me using the phrase 'contours of my body' - I think I could feel the shape of my skin covering my body and presenting itself as a hard boundary to the world outside.
Ok, have a closer look.

Lay down or sit comfortably. Close your eyes and breathe in and out for a few times and ‘arrive’ at the place you are just now.
Can you attend to sensation exclusively?
Not minding thought babbling about this and that?
Not minding thought labelling sensation for a bit?
Thought may tell: "I am lying here" or "My body is lying here" or "A body is lying here".
But could this be known from pure sensation?
Thought might suggest: "There is an inside and an outside of the body" or “There is a boundary”.
But could you know about "an inside and an outside" or " boundary " from pure sensation?

Once arrived there, while ONLY attending to sensation, please have a look at the following
questions:
How many toes are there?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair/bed/floor?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Please answer each question individually.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:21 pm

Sorry about the delay Jadzia,
I have a job interview tomorrow morning and have spent all day today preparing for it.
Should be able to post tomorrow later in the day.
Best & Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:14 pm

Good luck for you tomorrow! Everything will go well, you'll see!

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:03 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Thank you for your good wishes re my interview. It did seem to go well!
Lay down or sit comfortably. Close your eyes and breathe in and out for a few times and ‘arrive’ at the place you are just now.
Can you attend to sensation exclusively?
Yes I did this.
Thought might suggest: "There is an inside and an outside of the body" or “There is a boundary”.
But could you know about "an inside and an outside" or " boundary " from pure sensation?
No, no way.
Once arrived there, while ONLY attending to sensation, please have a look at the following
questions:
How many toes are there?
Don't know - can't tell.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
No.
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair/bed/floor?
No.

Is there an inside or an outside?
No.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
AT ONE AND AT PEACE.

Best & Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:22 pm

Lovely answers.
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
AT ONE AND AT PEACE.
So with closed eyes it is not easy to say if there are toes at all or if there is a body and not just a physical sensation, right?

Is this what you feel 'my' body? Is there an 'I' having 'my' body?
Can an 'I' actually be found by looking in this very moment, or in any other moment?
If yes, where?

Explore and share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:06 am

Is this what you feel 'my' body? Is there an 'I' having 'my' body?
No and no.
Can an 'I' actually be found by looking in this very moment, or in any other moment?
If yes, where?
No it can't.

Best & Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:37 am

Fine.

Let’s have another look at the belief of an ‘I’ making decisions or choices. This is one of the core beliefs centered around the self:
You need two drinks you like, whatever it is: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.
Sit down comfortably and place the two drinks in front of you, label them as drink A and drink B. Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:
1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.
In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Have fun exploring.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:32 am

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
They seem to appear by themselves - but surely habit plays a part here? I have been drinking tea and coffee for many years, so have become very familiar with the qualities of each of the drinks.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
I don't like 'counting in my head', e.g. in meditation, so it didn't become dominant. This appears to be habitual to me. I don't know if this is a mental function or faculty.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
As above - the habit of choosing between tea and coffee dominated. I don't know if that is a mental function or not.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
A feeling cannot 'choose'. No, it is not the nature of a feeling to choose.

I am feeling a little confused after this exercise.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jul 09, 2018 1:45 pm

Alright Paul,

please redo the exercise, best with something else - an apple and a banana, or a piece of chocolate and a biscuit.
Instead of counting try it with ABCDEFG, if that doesn't work think for a few seconds of bouncing kangoroos.

This time only stick to direct experience, don't fall for the thought mumble:
but surely habit plays a part here? I don't know if this is a mental function or faculty.
Important right now is what you can notice in AE, and not what thoughts offer as extra. So notice thoughts, but only concentrate on those which point to AE and not those which point to other thoughts.

You can keep your answers very short.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:37 am

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
They seem to appear by themselves. I 'chose' a drink based on sensation - I enjoyed it's colour at that moment.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
It seemed to just happen.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’?
No.
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?
No and no.
Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:42 am

Beautifully done. You didn't rely on memory or past moments and had a fresh look.
I 'chose' a drink based on sensation - I enjoyed it's colour at that moment.
Both are thoughts, right? When did these thoughts appear before, during or after the choosing?

For today just watch each time a choice or a decision is made.
Have a very close look.
Each time look if you find a mental function or faculty.
There will be thoughts like “I do this because …….”, “I will decide on this” and so on. But do this thoughts start a movement or tell what to eat? Could thoughts do something like this at all?
When do these thoughts appear: before, during or after a choice or decision been made?

Let this looking be light, no pressure, not too much effort.
Do this in an explorer modus, full of curiosity and joy.

Share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:14 pm

I 'chose' a drink based on sensation - I enjoyed it's colour at that moment.

Both are thoughts, right? When did these thoughts appear before, during or after the choosing?
It was kind of hard to tell - but I think after. I 'liked the look' of drink A but the label of 'colour' appeared as a thought later.
For today just watch each time a choice or a decision is made.
Have a very close look.
Each time look if you find a mental function or faculty.
There will be thoughts like “I do this because …….”, “I will decide on this” and so on. But do this thoughts start a movement or tell what to eat? Could thoughts do something like this at all?
The decision to do something seems to pop into my head or perhaps more accurately body. I can't find a mental function or faculty. Physical Sensations - e.g. hunger are deciders - to eat obviously. It seems that thoughts can't do this...
When do these thoughts appear: before, during or after a choice or decision been made?
I think after...
Let this looking be light, no pressure, not too much effort.
Do this in an explorer modus, full of curiosity and joy.
I tried not to try!

Love,
Paul


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