no self

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:45 am

It feels intriguing.
Oh yes, there is the possibility of something new, maybe already a hint of ease, a tiny or bigger bit of relaxation?
It could be. But the thoughts that just happen have a content that relates to a person's life. So, don't seem random.
There are stories told by thoughts about a person called ‘Paul’ or a person called ‘Jadzia’. Each and every thought content adds to the stories. There might be content about dislikes and likes, about aims, or what this person should do and much more.
Of course the thoughts are there and they can be noticed in the actual experience, right? They can be noticed like smell, or the seen.

Try this please:
Bring up a thought about a candle. The image of a candle. Maybe a moving picture.
The thought "candle" is actually experieced. It is right there.
You can observe it like the seen or the heard, can't you?

However, what is NOT actual experience is THE CANDLE.
It does not exist! It is just an illusory image. Just an empty projection. A fantasy.
It cannot brighten the room.

You see the difference?

So how about ‘Paul’?
Does this ‘Paul’ in thoughts exist in another way than the fantasy candle?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:30 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Oh yes, there is the possibility of something new, maybe already a hint of ease, a tiny or bigger bit of relaxation?
Yes, I am feeling less anxious and quite happy. More relaxed.
There are stories told by thoughts about a person called ‘Paul’ or a person called ‘Jadzia’. Each and every thought content adds to the stories. There might be content about dislikes and likes, about aims, or what this person should do and much more.
Yes, absolutely.
Bring up a thought about a candle. The image of a candle. Maybe a moving picture.
The thought "candle" is actually experieced. It is right there.
You can observe it like the seen or the heard, can't you?

However, what is NOT actual experience is THE CANDLE.
It does not exist! It is just an illusory image. Just an empty projection. A fantasy.
It cannot brighten the room.

You see the difference?
Yes, I do - very clearly.
So how about ‘Paul’?
Does this ‘Paul’ in thoughts exist in another way than the fantasy candle?
If I am looking - actual experience - there is no difference at all. If I am thinking, the 'Paul' seems very real because he has been around with me for a very long time. While I do get the point about AE, I am not yet there with the practice. I understand it - but it is with the aid of thought that I understand it.
Best & Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:13 pm

Yes, I am feeling less anxious and quite happy. More relaxed.
This sounds wonderful.
If I am looking - actual experience - there is no difference at all. If I am thinking, the 'Paul' seems very real because he has been around with me for a very long time. While I do get the point about AE, I am not yet there with the practice. I understand it - but it is with the aid of thought that I understand it.
Isn’t it amazing that we can use thought to explore everything even thought?
Thought is and can be our tool to learn about the nature of thoughts.

And yes, ‘Paul’ has been around since the moment mom and dad told you that you have a name and that it is Paul.
That’s where it started and the story became quite a habit.

In actual experience ‘Paul’ can’t be found.
You can neither see him, smell him, taste him, hear him, feel him – the only place ‘Paul’ can be found is in thoughts.
Nothing will change with gating – the story of Paul will still be there. Nothing will be lost.
What will have stopped is that this Paul, this ‘I’ is seen as the manager of everything. That’s it.

Look if you can find it with your senses or if you only find it in thoughts.
Observe all the thoughts which have an I, me, mine in them.

Just look at them and share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:22 pm

This sounds wonderful.
It is and I have you to thank for it Jadzia - for guiding me so well.
Isn’t it amazing that we can use thought to explore everything even thought?
Thought is and can be our tool to learn about the nature of thoughts.
Ok - good - I thought I was missing something.
And yes, ‘Paul’ has been around since the moment mom and dad told you that you have a name and that it is Paul.
That’s where it started and the story became quite a habit.
Yes!
What will have stopped is that this Paul, this ‘I’ is seen as the manager of everything. That’s it.
Wonderful.
Look if you can find it with your senses or if you only find it in thoughts.
Observe all the thoughts which have an I, me, mine in them.

Just look at them and share what you find
.
I have just observed something you said in an earlier post - that I can notice that a thought is there but can only experience the content of that thought through thought. Just got it! So, I can't find Paul as the manager of everything by looking.
Thoughts that include me/I/ my:

I am 63.
I am sensitive.
I was born in xxx. I lived away from xxx for 33 years, longer than I lived here (I live in xxxx now)
I am physically strong, fit and healthy - particularly for my age.
I am a painter (artist). I don't make much money doing this.
I am married to Helen. I have been her partner for 27 years.
I support Sheffield Wednesday Football Club.
Both my parents are still alive - my mum is 82 and my dad is 83. They are not happy about being old.

They seem like thoughts that delineate a life, attempt to control it. By providing boundaries, e.g. age, marital status, my health etc. they seem to want to provide a neat and limited view of a human life - understandable and simple. Nothing mysterious here.

Jadzia - I am not sure if what I have written above addresses your request:
Observe all the thoughts which have an I, me, mine in them.
Just look at them and share what you find
If you mean literally look at them, then I can't see anything.

Best & Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:35 pm

Blimey, now you really mean it, don’t you?
Your welcome Paul! We do this for the joy it gives.
I have just observed something you said in an earlier post - that I can notice that a thought is there but can only experience the content of that thought through thought. Just got it! So, I can't find Paul as the manager of everything by looking.
Beautiful.
There are thoughts pointing to something real, found in AE and others, actually most of them, point to other thoughts. And they are ‘good’ at it – they create an almost watertight story, which only starts unraveling once one really looks.
If you mean literally look at them, then I can't see anything.
How does this feel? To only find Paul, an I in thoughts and nowhere else?

Love,
Jadzia, who, this is what the story tell, sent you a pm. ;-)

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:50 pm

Blimey, now you really mean it, don’t you?
Your welcome Paul! We do this for the joy it gives.
Of course - this is how I feel.
There are thoughts pointing to something real, found in AE and others, actually most of them, point to other thoughts. And they are ‘good’ at it – they create an almost watertight story, which only starts unraveling once one really looks.
Yes - I just got what you mean here. Yup.
How does this feel? To only find Paul, an I in thoughts and nowhere else?
Right this moment, it feels really good.
Jadzia, who, this is what the story tell, sent you a pm. ;-)
I don't understand what you mean here Jadzia.

Best & Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:25 pm

OOps didn't work, sent another.
Top right on this page next to your name you can see your private messages.

Enjoy your finding - and tomorrow morning we will go on to look at some more things, ok?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:35 pm

Great.
Ta.
Best & Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:59 am

They seem like thoughts that delineate a life, attempt to control it. By providing boundaries, e.g. age, marital status, my health etc. they seem to want to provide a neat and limited view of a human life - understandable and simple. Nothing mysterious here.
Can thoughts ‚do‘ anything? Can they really „delineate“ or „attempt“ something or is this just another thought ‘telling’ what thoughts can do?

All the “I am”-s are labels, right?
How can that what you really are be a number, or a profession?
Isn’t this seemingly delineation the reason for the feeling of being separated when in truth no separation exists?
No ‘me’ and ‘you’, ‘inside’ and no ‘outside’, no ‘here’ and no ‘there’ but just This, Life or whatever one wants to call it which are all label?

There is a lovely exercise you might like. It includes having a walk preferably in a park or in another place in nature with a bit of space.

When you are outside: see how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.
Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.
Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.


Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:14 pm

Hiya Jadzia,
I have not been able to get out today and won't now either - so should be able to do this exercise tomorrow - I'll be in touch then.
Best & Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:52 pm

Whenever the time is to do the exercise it will be the right time :-)

What about the questions about thought, is everything clear there?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:40 pm

Yes, the questions are very clear Jadzia.
Speak tomorrow.
Love,
Paul

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:04 am

There is a lovely exercise you might like.
I did love it.
Notice that everything is part of one movement.
Yes.
Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?
The contours of my body - the outside of my skin - seem to be providing a boundary at the moment.
Is there an inside and an outside of Life?
I don't think so but see my answer above regarding my body and skin. This is how it feels - like I am contained by my skin.
Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?
I don't know. Doesn't feel like there is.
Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance?
I don't know. It felt like there was a witness.
Is witnessing part of the one movement too?
I feel that to be the case. How are feelings different to seeing? I haven't seen a witness.
Is there anything which is not just happening?
I don't know. Last Wednesday that was the case but I didn't see that today. I want this but haven't seen it clearly enough yet.

Maybe I need to spend much more time looking and experiencing. With this in mind, I should tell you that I am going away early tomorrow morning and coming back Sunday evening. I should have lots of 'spare time' over two of these days to focus upon AE.

Love,
Paul

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:44 pm

p.s.
I may be available online while I am away but I can't guarantee it as it is dependent upon availability of wifi.

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:22 pm

The belief in a separate self is a habit and it takes time to get out of a well used and trained habit. Taking thoughts for face value is a habit too, it takes a bit of time.
Patience is helpful and checking if the content of thought can be found in AE, too.
The contours of my body - the outside of my skin - seem to be providing a boundary at the moment.
This is how it feels - like I am contained by my skin.
Has this been a real feeling, like in a physical sensation? Something which could be felt at that moment in AE?
Or has there been a thought: “This feels like I am contained by my skin”?

Often the phrase “This feels like” is not used for something felt in AE but it is a phrase which turns up in thought without a real meaning.
So have a look whenever “This feels like” turns up.

If one is contained by the skin of the body, that would mean that there is a separate ‘I’ and a body, and the ‘I’ either is the body or in the body, or?

Same here have a close look, a direct look at what you find right now.
Is there an ‘I’ in the body? Can you find it when looking with your senses?
Is the ‘I’ the body?
Can something which is an illusion be contained at all?
I haven't seen a witness.
Did you find one with any other sense?
There is awareness, noticing but is it a witness which is apart from the awareness, the noticing?

Take your time to find an answer. Use the next days to practice LOOKING, and of course have a good time.

Write whenever you can, if not fine, thank you for telling me.

Love,
Jadzia


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