no self

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:55 pm

Yes, I am ready this time Jadzia!

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Sat Aug 25, 2018 7:01 pm

Great, we still have all the time in the world. :-)

Here is the first one:

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:09 pm

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No and no.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Sat Aug 25, 2018 8:17 pm

No question to ask, nothing to add. ;-)

Here number 2:
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:54 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self is based upon an idea that the individual human has a distinct and somewhat heterogeneous existence. Her or his personality and character are individual and this separate self is in control of the person’s life: decisions; behaviour and destiny. This idea begins as soon as the individual human is able to understand the story of a separate self – when s/he is told their name and they are presented with the idea that they are separate, distinct and unique. It doesn’t begin at birth. It begins when a child is able to understand stories about itself. It is the product of stories. These stories are societal in their origin. There is also an idea that we are individuals who, as well as co-operate, compete with each other. Amongst other things, we have an ego. It is pernicious.

From my life experience, the way it works is that you are treated by your parents, other family members, friends, colleagues and others as if you are separate from them. And because it begins so early in a person’s life – in childhood – the person, for the most part, believes that it is the only possible truth. People may sense sometimes that this is not quite right. I had a doubt about it. It happened when I first met my current partner some years ago – I wanted to have a relationship with her in which we were part of the same thing, not separate individuals. It didn’t work.

Now, I see that all humans, all animals, all ‘natural forces’ are, and always have been, part of the same thing: we are one. This is, for me, a liberating and life-affirming idea. I have not yet seen anything to guide me as regards the nature of a ‘controller’ or ‘decider’ other than it not being separate to the whole either. This will be one part of the ongoing enquiry I will undertake later.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:45 am

Here two more questions:

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:29 am

Hi Jadzia,
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels great. I am being less 'controlling'. I am a little disoriented but nothing to be concerned about - I am just feeling the difference. Before I began this dialogue, I was constantly trying to organize and control the many tasks and other aspects of working days and future activities. Slowly, this is falling away. I am sleeping well and generally 'taking things in my stride' and relaxing more. Also, very curious about future enquiry! But, I will take my time with this - slow and sure.
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
It was the 'anxiety' exercise - where I focused upon the sensation, found no way back to thought, and relaxed with a very warm feeling. This made no self very real for me. Now no self has begun to feel 'normal' all the time - and being at one with the rest of things feels great.

Best & Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 11:58 am

Was there ever an I in control or was this ever only part of the story?
So can control lessen?

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Mon Aug 27, 2018 12:33 pm

Hello Jadzia,
Was there ever an I in control or was this ever only part of the story?
So can control lessen?
No, there was never an 'I' in control - just an illusion of it. Part of the story. I was pointing to the urge to control and not explaining it very well. It is this urge that is lessening.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:58 pm

Ok, so the urge is something like a habit? lessening?

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Don't forget the examples.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:36 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Ok, so the urge is something like a habit? lessening?
Yes and definitely lessening.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
I don't recall that these are words that we have used much during our dialogue - but do you want me to say something about them anyway?
What makes things happen?
I don't know. As I said in a post earlier today, I haven't given much consideration to the issue of a 'controller/decider' other than that they are part of the whole. And that it is not me that is making things happen.
How does it work?
Again, I don't know - other than i know that it is not me that is making it work. It works without me!
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Don't forget the examples.
I am trying to work this out at the moment - but I am not trying very hard. Instead, I am letting things happen.
But I can say that I am responsible for looking after myself as regards washing, dressing, eating, taking medication etc.
Having written this last sentence I am not sure that it's true. I don't know what I am responsible for is a more honest answer.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:06 am

I don't recall that these are words that we have used much during our dialogue - but do you want me to say something about them anyway?
Sure.
Reread the question carefully and look deep - you’ll find your answers to that by looking at what you can find in AE and at that what became your known so far.
I don't know. As I said in a post earlier today, I haven't given much consideration to the issue of a 'controller/decider' other than that they are part of the whole. And that it is not me that is making things happen.
There is the belief many share that life is unfolding after a plan, but is it so? This would mean a decider, planer, controler would be needed.
What is if there would be no controller/decider needed, no control, no decision - just life happening spontaneously?
Ponder this for a while and write what you find.
But I can say that I am responsible for looking after myself as regards washing, dressing, eating, taking medication etc.
Having written this last sentence I am not sure that it's true. I don't know what I am responsible for is a more honest answer.
Well, have a close look.
Is the ‘I’ the instigator of action? Does thought 'tell' what to do?
When there is action, when does the thougth claims to decide for it, before, during or after action?
Watch like a hawk and observe carefully.
Describe how action happens.


Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:41 pm

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
A decision is a thought that claims to originate ‘the decision’ but actually comes after it’s orgination.
An example is that I start the car and then thought very soon after says you have started the car.

Intention is also a thought about what course of action to take. However, it also comes after the action has started.
I intend to do the gardening - thought - always comes just after you have begun it.

The idea (thought) of free will is that each individual is capable of exercising their ability to think and then act as they wish. In fact thoughts are not controlled by the individual and free will would be better characterized within the context of the oneness of animals, the natural world and humans.
Example - as above, I choose to exercise my free will to rest follows the beginning of the act.

Choice refers to the idea that each individual has a number of possibilities as regards a course of action. Thoughts lead us to believe that this is the case. However, we choose before thought catches up. Thoughts tells us a story about choices.

Control – the idea that the individual has control over almost every aspect of their lives. For me, it is the idea of control that validates the idea of the self. And when we see that there is no self then there is no control either.
What makes things happen?
From looking today and earlier – life is just happening spontaneously. Without a controller. I cannot see a controller.
How does it work?
It just happens.
What are you responsible for?

As with the answers to lots of the questions above, the action begins, then the thought appears to provide a reason/ rationality/ story to ‘accompany’ the action. It seeks to explain it and claims, again, to originate it. However, as in all of the other cases above, thought come slightly after the action begins. So the 'I' is not responsible for anything. Daily tasks such a having a shower, eating food, painting, driving are all examples of this.

Love,
Paul

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Jadzia
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Re: no self

Postby Jadzia » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:03 am

One thing:
Observe thoughts and action one more time. Sometimes it can happen that a ‘commanding’ thought is there before action. Still, the question is: does the thought lead to action.

Remember the hand turning exercise? Do it again.
The order is to turn the hand. Does a thought order the turn of a hand?
Have a close look again, look for a possible connection between hand movement and thought.
Share what you find.

Love,
Jadzia

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PauliePaul
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Re: no self

Postby PauliePaul » Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:16 pm

Hi Jadzia,
Sometimes it can happen that a ‘commanding’ thought is there before action. Still, the question is: does the thought lead to action.
Yes, I thought about this. Something like - 'I must do the cleaning' or 'I must go to the gym'. But the thought does not initiate action. A thought such as - I am on the way to the gym now - will follow very soon after the action is initiated.
Remember the hand turning exercise? Do it again.
The order is to turn the hand. Does a thought order the turn of a hand?
Have a close look again, look for a possible connection between hand movement and thought.
Share what you find.
No, thought does not turn the hand - it is more of a 'reflex' action which responds, in this case, to your instruction.

Best & Love,
Paul


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