no next

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Steven257
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:33 am

no next

Postby Steven257 » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:35 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand intellectually, and at times fully, that there is no permanent entity or controller. It is just thoughts, feelings, sensations and perceptions arising and falling away. Yet, there frequently remains a feeling of a separate self, the cause of suffering. As I write these words, it feels like there is a "me" writing these words.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to figure out why there still remains a feeling that there is a separate self most of the time. When I am happy, that feeling of a separate self dissolves and there is freedom, but it is fleeting. I feel like I could meditate, contemplate and read, write and talk about this forever, yet there will remain a feeling that I am separate from others. I am looking for a deeper understanding of the truth that there is no separate self, which I intellectually understand. It is logical and true, but the deeper feeling of separation persists.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to be shown the false elements of my lingering conditioning and beliefs that remain hidden. I hope to be shaken to the core. I hope the guided conversation is based on mutual respect, compassion, but a fierceness is OK as well. This is the most important part of my life so hope for some wise and loving guidance.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I am 52 years old and have been practicing meditation and contemplation since my 20s. Someone in a Advaita nonduality group that I attend recommended this website. I have practiced zen meditation, insight meditation and most recently Advaita with my favorite teachers being J. Krishnamurti, Rupert Spira, and Francis Lucille.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 11

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1177
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: no next

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:16 pm

Hi Steven,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

What do you want me to call you? Steven?

Warmly,
Stacy
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Steven257
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:33 am

Re: no next

Postby Steven257 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:45 pm

Hi Stacy,

Steven is my actual name so feel free to call me that.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Steven

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1177
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: no next

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:15 pm

Hi Steven,

A little bit of housekeeping and then let's begin.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now. Here is the link:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Please learn to use the quote function. It helps. When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Instructions are located in the links below:

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/nat ... ?f=4&t=660

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ&app=desktop
I hope to be shaken to the core. I hope the guided conversation is based on mutual respect, compassion, but a fierceness is OK as well. This is the most important part of my life so hope for some wise and loving guidance.
It is likely you will get what you came for. I hope to be of service. Let's begin.

When it is read that there is no self, has never been, and never will be, that this is a story based on nothing at all in reality, what comes up?

Warmly,
Stacy
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Steven257
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:33 am

Re: no next

Postby Steven257 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:05 am

When it is read that there is no self, has never been, and never will be, that this is a story based on nothing at all in reality, what comes up?
When I read the quote several hours ago, my initial response was laughter. That is a frequent reaction that I have when something seems to bypass my intellect and cuts right to the heart of the truth. It seems so obvious and true that I just started to laugh. The "story based on nothing at all" was particularly "funny" because it is so blunt and true.

Yet, several minutes later as I was showering and going through routine activities of life, my feeling of self seems so strong and now as I write this, I feel so separate and real and there feels like there is an "I" inside and everything else outside. Intellectually, I know there are no thoughts, feelings, sensations and perceptions that do not change, so they cannot be me but there seems to be a witness that is me, but it feels like this "me" will die when my body dies.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1177
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: no next

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:15 am

Fun. I've had times of that laughing response. It's a lot of fun.
my feeling of self seems so strong and now as I write this, I feel so separate and real and there feels like there is an "I" inside and everything else outside.
Okay, start right there with that idea. Can you find precisely where this "I" that is "inside" ends and the "everything else" that is "outside" begins? Is there a point, a line, a boundary that can be found directly in experience?

Not thoughts, not concepts, not stories, not labels, not things read or learned anywhere. Simply look for what is in this moment's experience.

One way to go about this, if sitting, is to find where butt stops and chair begins. Close your eyes.

What is the direct experience? Can it be found? Describe this, please.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Steven257
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:33 am

Re: no next

Postby Steven257 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:26 am

What is the direct experience? Can it be found? Describe this, please.
No boundary in the direct experience. Experimented with this throughout the day. Right now, cannot even discriminate between the computer screen and "me"....but,

The problem is that throughout the day and right now, when I think about the experiences, I sense the world from this finite point. When I leave this room, I no longer see the computer screen. Logic tells me that my consciousness must be in the body because wherever the body moves, that is where I experience the local environment.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1177
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: no next

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:05 pm

Logic tells me that my consciousness must be in the body because wherever the body moves, that is where I experience the local environment.
Thinking & logic tell us many things that cannot be found in Direct Experience and thinking will pretty much continue to do so.

Do you remember believing in Santa Claus? You can still think of Santa Claus, but even when you think you see him at the department store, you know he isn't real and that he isn't going to fly into the sky with a team of reindeer and a sleigh. Right?

It's kind of like that. Some people see the truth of no self, but don't believe what they've seen and continue to argue about it because thinking continues. That's normal.

It isn't that thinking goes away. It is that it is now seen in a more proper perspective. Thinking isn't believed as much when it tells you what reality is. You have seen reality is not many things that thinking has been telling you that it was. Like Santa Claus.

Let's look closer at thinking and control.

Is it that these voices (thoughts) are controlling your behaviors in any way?

Try this out.

Get two foods you like, one that is a "bad" food like a piece of chocolate and one a "good" food like a piece of apple.

Thoughts might come up whilst looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other.

Eventually one of them will get eaten first.

Look carefully for any evidence in experience that those thoughts controlled the behavior, rather than just guessing and commenting what might happen.

Let me know what you find in your direct experience.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Steven257
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:33 am

Re: no next

Postby Steven257 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 6:54 pm

Look carefully for any evidence in experience that those thoughts controlled the behavior, rather than just guessing and commenting what might happen. 
Agree based on my experience at lunch today. What about when I tell myself that i will raise my left hand and it goes up? It feels like i have free will. That feeling is very convincing- there is a chooser or agent that is acting.

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1177
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: no next

Postby Anastacia42 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:03 pm

Good.

Let's use that one about raising the arm.

Raise the left arm. Do it slowly.

Watch carefully. Do it a few times, very slow motion.

Approach this like a meditation. Observe.

At some point, you may experience a feeling of kind of sinking in and back. Pay attention.

Describe what is found. Is there a decider? A controller? Or just arm raising?

Enjoy!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Steven257
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:33 am

Re: no next

Postby Steven257 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:20 am

Describe what is found. Is there a decider? A controller? Or just arm raising?
I experimented with the arm raising a few times today, and just now. Certainly, thought does not control the arm. There is an intention to do it, that feels out of my control. A couple of loosely related items...

Had a very relaxing message after work. Noticed that the hands of the masseuse seemed to be indistinguishable from my body.

While eating dinner, I looked at the sandwich which was not "me", ate the sandwich and then wondered if it was part of "me". I have thought about eating and the body and breathing and air but more deeply felt that the distinction between my body and the environment is tenuous at best, and actually not really separate at all.

When I am thinking, which is most of the time, that is when I feel like there is a separate self. The Sam Harris quote that is under your signature is very relevant to me, but maybe I am jumping ahead too much...

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1177
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: no next

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:13 am

Yes, You see no self in what thou described, but who is this "I" doing the describing?

It seems like you have an expectation of no thinking. That occurs sometimes, yes. The Sam Harris quote is not jumping too far ahead. The key word may be "lost."

Thoughts happen, but who is there to be "lost" in them?

Who is this "I" that experimented, had thoughts, had a massage, ate food, thinking all the while?

Where do you find this "I?"

Is there some "I" having thoughts or is thinking just happening? Check. Look.

What is found?

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1177
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: no next

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:13 am

"Thou" was accidental, but why not?

;)
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

User avatar
Steven257
Posts: 99
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:33 am

Re: no next

Postby Steven257 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:48 pm

Stacy-

"Thou" is perfect.

I am facing some resistance today and then I wonder exactly who is facing the resistance. This is where I get a bit stuck. I cannot find an "I" but I know that there is not much insight here because I feel the same as yesterday. I am not more peaceful or happy compared to yesterday.

Should I explore this further today and email tomorrow? I am not sure how often to email if I do not feel that I am exploring deeply enough due to either resistance or frustration or just tied up with work stuff. What do you recommend?

I also want to say that I am really enjoying this process so far and truly appreciate your responses.

Steven

User avatar
Anastacia42
Posts: 1177
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:04 am
Contact:

Re: no next

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:21 pm

Hi Steven

Good questions. It is recommended you practice & post daily to keep some momentum going. Please post & let me know if you'll be away more than a day & I'll do the same.

Very glad you're enjoying it. It is a pleasure to guide here.

Yes, continue to explore further. Post what you find in Direct Experience each day. Keep looking. You're doing everything right. There will come a time and it may be all at once or maybe gradual where you will actually see what we're talking about. You seem to be seeing and then doubting. Let go. Let the inquiry surprise you.

Let me offer an exercise thou can continue with for a while. It has several pieces. Do them all, several times, several days, and post each day for feedback and more pointing. Deal?

Real is what doesn't disappear when we stop believing in it. "I" is not real, never existed. It requires belief to maintain this story of "I." We are looking past those beliefs.

This exercise is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?

Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?

Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?

Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’;

OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Describe what is found, whatever is seen at each step, each day.

Enjoy!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests