I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Vilhelm
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:12 am

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby Vilhelm » Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:52 pm

Hi Michael
Can they? Can thought know sensation?

Can sensation know thought?
I do not have an accurate answer in this regard. No, they definitely cannot know sensations. They pretend to though. Sensations are in constant motion, and thoughts just run commentaries and interpretations over raw data. This means this, this means that, and here’s how to avoid it.
No, sensations cannnot know thought. Sensations are just sensations. As I understand it the self is a thought about sensations.
A friend of mine just gave me the term 'empty whispers' for thoughts. Very useful to view them this way.
Sounds accurate :)

Thank you for your continual support. Excited for the next instructions,

Vilhelm

User avatar
MichaelD
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby MichaelD » Wed Mar 21, 2018 5:44 pm

Hi Vilhelm,
No, they (thoughts) definitely cannot know sensations. They pretend to though. Sensations are in constant motion, and thoughts just run commentaries and interpretations over raw data.
Exactly!
No, sensations cannnot know thought. Sensations are just sensations.
Exactly!
As I understand it the self is a thought about sensations.
Or is it that thoughts occur (including about 'ourselves') and are believed?

Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?

Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?


Have fun!

michael

User avatar
Vilhelm
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:12 am

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby Vilhelm » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:21 am

Hello Michael,
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No, there is just the next thought appearing. The thinker is just a belief structure made entirely out of thought.
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Thoughts about a thinker, and images of what a thinker might be - in addition to thought - may arise, but they are also just thought.
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Yes. This can be noticed.
Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
No, the I cannot control thought. Never. Someone who is lost in thought might get an impression, that through identification, the "I" controls thought, but this is not seeing the illusion for what it is. There are thoughts about a self, but this does not make self a solid entity which can control thoughts.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?
Choosing is an illusion. It is the subsequent me-ing of choice having been made. But choosing still happens, followed by an "I" did this thought-impression. I say impression because the thought doesn't normally say "I thought this," but rather points to a belief in an existing self through some identification.
This can be noticed in the momentariness of experience. First noticing.

Everything is becoming more enjoyable. This clears up a lot of bad habits.

Vilhelm

User avatar
MichaelD
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby MichaelD » Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:18 pm

Vilhelm,

You seem to have become a spiritual athlete who has hit peak form at exactly the right moment!

Excellent work all your discursive answers are being replaced by direct and accurate observation. Whatever happens from here on this is the 'mode' of looking that you need to remain rooted in. Absolutely fantastic.
Hello Michael,
Can an 'I' be found that generates thoughts?
No, there is just the next thought appearing. The thinker is just a belief structure made entirely out of thought.
Does the thinker of the thought appear in experience? Can it be found?
Thoughts about a thinker, and images of what a thinker might be - in addition to thought - may arise, but they are also just thought.
Could it be that the 'I' that thinks is also just a thought?
Yes. This can be noticed.
Is there an 'I' that controls thoughts?
No, the I cannot control thought. Never. Someone who is lost in thought might get an impression, that through identification, the "I" controls thought, but this is not seeing the illusion for what it is. There are thoughts about a self, but this does not make self a solid entity which can control thoughts.
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can you choose what to think?
Can you choose what not to think?
Choosing is an illusion. It is the subsequent me-ing of choice having been made. But choosing still happens, followed by an "I" did this thought-impression. I say impression because the thought doesn't normally say "I thought this," but rather points to a belief in an existing self through some identification.
This can be noticed in the momentariness of experience. First noticing.

Everything is becoming more enjoyable. This clears up a lot of bad habits.
Everything is becoming more enjoyable.
I am glad everything is becoming more enjoyable. Please tell me about this. How do you feel?

How are work and family relationships at the moment?

Do you now believe there is a fixed seperate self?

How is it (or the belief in it) constructed?

Michael

User avatar
Vilhelm
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:12 am

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby Vilhelm » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:14 pm

Hello Michael,

Thank you so much for your answer.
Whatever happens from here on this is the 'mode' of looking that you need to remain rooted in.
I think I understand this, but I am not sure. Can you expand on this? :)
I am glad everything is becoming more enjoyable. Please tell me about this. How do you feel?
There is not much emotional suffering. Few thoughts evolve into stories. When the stories are noticed they are not believed, and are let go of. Emotions are experienced without identification. Sensations are known without identification.
I feel that I can for the first time just give in to the unfolding of experience without being identified, NO matter the content.
I now know with more certainty that the experience cannot be anything other than what it is. I remember my teacher saying "It's like this now," as a way of relating to experience. I can finally manifest that relation. Any moment of noticing is as appropriate as any other.
I think that what helped a lot was truly seeing a bigger picture, and noticing that the only "job" I had was to notice what was present (only notice). Really understanding that judgments are just other thoughts.
How are work and family relationships at the moment?
I am much happier, and the relationships are doing better because of it.
Do you now believe there is a fixed seperate self?
I found this difficult to answer. I do not believe in a seperate self when noticing direct experience, but intellectually - at the moment - I somehow do believe in one.
How is it (or the belief in it) constructed?
An evolving brain might start by default to distinguish between subjects and objects. It is made real through identification with thought.

When we started chatting I noticed the selflesness of thoughts as something, now it has no feel to it. What happened? Was it just the newness of noticing selflesness? I feel much less identified now.

Vilhelm

User avatar
MichaelD
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby MichaelD » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:22 pm

Hi Vilhelm,
Whatever happens from here on this is the 'mode' of looking that you need to remain rooted in.
I think I understand this, but I am not sure. Can you expand on this? :)
You stopped giving thought based discursive answers and instead gave short punchy answers that were based directly in experience (rather than thoughts about experience).
There is not much emotional suffering. Few thoughts evolve into stories. When the stories are noticed they are not believed, and are let go of. Emotions are experienced without identification. Sensations are known without identification.
When stories are noticed are they really let go of?

By who?

Could it be true to say that when stories are noticed they simply dissolve?
I feel that I can for the first time just give in to the unfolding of experience without being identified, NO matter the content.
I now know with more certainty that the experience cannot be anything other than what it is.
Brilliant - Well done - a real point of freedom.
I think that what helped a lot was truly seeing a bigger picture, and noticing that the only "job" I had was to notice what was present (only notice). Really understanding that judgments are just other thoughts.
There is noticing what is present but is it a 'you' doing it?
Do you now believe there is a fixed seperate self?

I found this difficult to answer. I do not believe in a seperate self when noticing direct experience, but intellectually - at the moment - I somehow do believe in one.
What form does this 'self' you believe in take?

Where, or what is it within experience?

Not intelectual answers remeber - but just from looking.

:)

Michael

User avatar
Vilhelm
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:12 am

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby Vilhelm » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:21 pm

Hello Michael,
When stories are noticed are they really let go of?

By who?

Could it be true to say that when stories are noticed they simply dissolve?
Yes, they just dissolve. There is no one seeing them dissolve seperate from seeing.
I think that what helped a lot was truly seeing a bigger picture, and noticing that the only "job" I had was to notice what was present (only notice). Really understanding that judgments are just other thoughts.
There is noticing what is present but is it a 'you' doing it?
No, there is no me doing it. There is just doing happening, and noticing that it is so.
What form does this 'self' you believe in take?

Where, or what is it within experience?

Not intelectual answers remeber - but just from looking.
At this point the identification does vary, and there is still some doubt. But it is clear that there is no self in direct experience.
Whatever the intellectual belief is, it is seen to be a thought structure in direct experience.

I am ready for your next instructions/questions :)


Vilhelm

User avatar
MichaelD
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby MichaelD » Mon Mar 26, 2018 3:27 pm

Hi Vilhelm,

Great answers so I am not going to copy them again here.

What I will do now is give you the final LU set of 6 questions that help to give a summing up of what you have seen and might help clear up any remaining confusion.

Do whatever you feel is best - so you can answer them one or two at a time or in any grouping that feels right for you.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please take your time and answer as fully as possible, that really helps. There are No Right Answers!

Enjoy!

Michael

User avatar
Vilhelm
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:12 am

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby Vilhelm » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:37 pm

Hello Michael,

I will take a look at the questions again when things are clearer.

Vilhelm

User avatar
Vilhelm
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:12 am

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby Vilhelm » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:20 am

Hello Michael,
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no seperate self in direct experience. There are thoughts about a self, however, that imply there being a thinker of thoughts, and an author of actions, but they are just thoughts arising in the momentariness of things being known/noticed.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
Sometimes there is a thought, and then the subsequent thought about that thought, trying to figure out retrospectively if it was selfless. This thinking about a thought creates a thinker, who is now trying to find selflesness. Delusion. The recognition must be of the contemporary arising thought to be recognized as selfless. Therefore, tuning into the first noticings is essential. Thinker, seer and feeler are all illusions.
The self is created through thought. "I am looking." "I am noticing selflesness." "There is no self in direct experience." "This posture is comfortable (for me)."
Just being with the senses, noticing thoughts label experience, and the self to which they refer.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
There is sometimes a clear (other times not so clear) understanding that all the content present is selfless.
The only moments in which it is really liberating is when it is noticed in all aspects of the present moment experience. This has only been recognized to have happened once, but the understanding remains. The "giving in," is still a little mysterious.
The recognizing capacity does vary. Being lost in thought about the experience is frequent, and the identification in those moments of being lost is just as strong as it used to be before seeing no self. There are times when it isn't noticed for 1-2 days. Strong emotions and stress confuse things.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
In a moment of being grounded and relaxed there was still some selfing taking place, and the interest in it being present trumped the identification. The thought "If everything is happening on automatic, then just let it do what it does," which was also seen as empty of self in that moment. Every subsequent arising thought was noticed without any identification. Effortlessly.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decisions and intentions are not an illusion. It is the me-ing of that decision or intention which is the illusion. There is no one making the decision or intention, just a thought about someone making a decision or intention. And that someone is just a belief structure, not relality.
There is no free will because there is no doer or thinker. Everything happens on automatic. It might seem like one has free will, but that can be cut through.
"I am gonna sit down and answer this. Who is? That was a thought. That too. I am getting really good at noticing thoughts." Even though there are thoughts about a self, there is no self. Everything does what it is. The mind makes thoughts who refer to a self, that's just what the mind does. There is no responsibility, because no one is responsible. The water is not responsible for mirroring the birds, that's just what it does. Does, is - no subject.

Vilhelm

User avatar
MichaelD
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby MichaelD » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:15 pm

Hi Wilhelm,

Great answers!

I am now going to get our thread checked by Ilona or another senior guide. They might have a question or two - which is fine as it is all part of the process.

In the meantime just continue to deepen your insight into no-self and let things unfold as they will.

Michael

User avatar
Vilhelm
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:12 am

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby Vilhelm » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:02 am

Hi Michael,

Thr attention gets very narrow on some object continuously. To a point where it gets very intense. It happens almost all the time.

Vilhelm

User avatar
MichaelD
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby MichaelD » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:36 pm

Hi Vilhelm,

Sorry but I don't understand what you are saying. Is there another way you could explain what is happening or can you give more detail please.

Michael

User avatar
MichaelD
Posts: 432
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 6:21 pm

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby MichaelD » Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:44 pm

Hi Wilhelm,

I have just seen that our conversation has been checked by a senior guide (Kay). She is happy with your answers to the final questions but wants me to check one thing:

In your answer to question 3 you state that you are sufferring less, which is great to hear, but can you explain how you actually feel now and compare this with how you were at the beginning of the process.

Many thanks,

Michael

User avatar
Vilhelm
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:12 am

Re: I want to realise the absence of a sepeterate self

Postby Vilhelm » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:20 pm

Hello Michael,

The attention becomes very narrow on tenseness in the body. All the thinking happening is about it, to the exclusion of other phenomena. This is happening regularly.
This changes when thoughts are seen to be empty, and the attention is seen to be thought created. Then the sensational pattern diminishes, and focusing goes to other objects. There’s a surge of energy when disidentification happens.

Suffering less:
The emotional suffering is just being lost in thought about the experienced. When attention is on the felt sense of the suffering expression it is undermined. Where is the suffering?
For the first time in a long time there are experiences of effortlesness, and the understanding that the self identification is absent in those emoments. Very freeing. Just genuine authenticity in daily actions. Thought is occuring, but it diminishes upon its arising.

Vilhelm


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests