Looking

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JonathanR
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Re: Looking

Postby JonathanR » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:12 pm

Hi Samantha

My name is ,Jon. Very pleased to meet you.

I'd ike to ask you some questions, if that's OK? Sorry if any of them are repeats but please still answer them.

Can you say with a big fat YES that the illusion of a separate self is seen?

If so, how? How does the illusion work? How does it start, where does it cone from?

Does a separate self exist in any way shape or form? Did one ever?

Thank you

Warm regards,

Jon

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Openview
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Re: Looking

Postby Openview » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:13 am

Hello Jon,

thank you for engaging with me.
Can you say with a big fat YES that the illusion of a separate self is seen?

If so, how? How does the illusion work? How does it start, where does it cone from?

Does a separate self exist in any way shape or form? Did one ever?
There is some hesitancy answering so I can't answer with a big fat Yes...im not sure why the hesitancy...i can see that im not the chooser of thoughts or emotions or actions...they just arise...at times they are identified with as a me and other times a clear not me...the illusion of self arises with the knowing of thoughts, sensations and emotions and it seemingly collapses into a sense of I.

There has never been a separate self but there has been a belief in a separate self...as I write this it seems like a me writing this but I do not find the originator of thoughts...i do not know my next thought or feeling .or what I will write..it's like waiting to find out what shows up...approval or disapproval, for instance, is not known until a thought arises to say one or the other.

Thank you,
Samantha

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JonathanR
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Re: Looking

Postby JonathanR » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:25 pm

Hi Samantha,
the illusion of self arises with the knowing of thoughts, sensations and emotions and it seemingly collapses into a sense of I.
What its it that knows thoughts, sensations and emotions?

There has never been a separate self but there has been a belief in a separate self...as I write this it seems like a me writing this but I do not find the originator of thoughts...i do not know my next thought or feeling .or what I will write..it's like waiting to find out what shows up...approval or disapproval, for instance, is not known until a thought arises to say one or the other.
Was there a moment when it became clear that this is what is going on?

How does it feel to see this?

Thanks,

Jon

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Openview
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Re: Looking

Postby Openview » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:28 pm

what is it that knows thoughts, sensations and emotions

open space... When there is the experience of just this open space and lack of identity with a body it all happens here/now... It's a direct knowing without an identity... At other times a bit of contraction inward in the body... But, there isn't a belief of ultimate control... No one in control but it's all showing up here now.
Was there a moment when it became clear that this is what is going on?
I've had multiple experiences of the self falling away...years ago, it was in a park, where all there was was seeing...the body was barely noticed...this has happened multiple times but more so recently...when in the experience of "open view" there is no concern for the body...increased liveliness and the self identity is seen through...Not even present in this moments.
How does it feel to see this?
Recently fear and tearing up has happened...in the past, a couple times, laughter happened.

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JonathanR
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Re: Looking

Postby JonathanR » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:59 pm

Hi Samantha,

Thank you so much for your reply.
I can't answer it with a big fat Yes...im not sure why the hesitancy...i can see that im not the chooser of thoughts or emotions or actions...they just arise...at times they are identified with as a me and other times a clear not me...the illusion of self arises with the knowing of thoughts, sensations and emotions and it seemingly collapses into a sense of I.


What is it that prevents a big fat yes? Its worth looking at.

Is it this sense of I that you mention?

Thank you,

Jon

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Openview
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Re: Looking

Postby Openview » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:37 pm

Hi Jon, thank you for being here.
What is it that prevents a big fat yes? Its worth looking at.

Is it this sense of I that you mention?
Self is held in thought. Thoughts cannot know or hold anything...pretending. Is that true? Maybe simpler and more innocent then pretending...thoughts are...not the villain just what arises...so, where is self then? Self is known thru thoughts, sensations, emotions...it is not self directed but that is how it's "known"

Dropping thought...sadness/tearing...calming
What prevents a big fat Yes?
What if im wrong? Who would be wrong? ..it's suppose to be a certain way? What I'd really like is the open space experience all the time...it's so easy...lovely...vibrant...free...Is there a temper tantrum here? Anger arises.....powerlessness...god damn it...frustration...what are you afraid of? What if im wrong? A phony?.

More later.

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JonathanR
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Re: Looking

Postby JonathanR » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:48 pm

Hi Samantha,
. thank you for being here.
My pleasure, you are welcome.
. Self is held in thought. Thoughts cannot know or hold anything...pretending. Is that true? Maybe simpler and more innocent then pretending...thoughts are...not the villain just what arises...so, where is self then? Self is known thru thoughts, sensations, emotions...it is not self directed but that is how it's "known"
This is all good. Where you say 'pretending'. Is that true?' is that an expression of doubt about what you're saying? If so, let's look at it.
. What if im wrong? Who would be wrong? ..it's suppose to be a certain way? What I'd really like is the open space experience all the time...it's so easy...lovely...vibrant...free...Is there a temper tantrum here? Anger arises.....powerlessness...god damn it...frustration...what are you afraid of? What if im wrong? A phony?.
Ah. Thank you. It does look like doubt and quite understandable. But also, that you see what thoughts are up to.

Ok, who or what could be 'wrong'?

To be 'wrong' implies that someone is 'not right' but does seeing that there is no self have anything to do with 'being right' or 'wrong' about anything?

All best,

Jon

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Openview
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Re: Looking

Postby Openview » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:49 pm

This is all good. Where you say 'pretending'. Is that true?' is that an expression of doubt about what you're saying? If so, let's look at it.
.

I think I chose a poor word to describe the hallowness of thought...no innate power....no pretending on my part of seeing.

I've had multiple experiences of no self...they are not constant...it seems that if the experience is not constant somehow I question it...i don't really question the seeing...i question my grasp of it or the totality of it resting here...i hope that makes sense.
Ok, who or what could be 'wrong'?

To be 'wrong' implies that someone is 'not right' but does seeing that there is no self have anything to do with 'being right' or 'wrong' about anything?
.

No...thank you for pointing that out...thoughts arise and I wrote them down...trying to figure out sticking point.

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Openview
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Re: Looking

Postby Openview » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:56 pm

If thoughts are regarded highly, the big fat yes will be hard to make.

Thoughts arise... At times paid attention to sometimes not so much.

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JonathanR
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Re: Looking

Postby JonathanR » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:26 pm

Hi Samantha,
. I've had multiple experiences of no self...they are not constant...it seems that if the experience is not constant somehow I question it
could this be due to the thinking that an 'I' can actually 'have an experience of no self"? How could that work?

But could it be that there is an expectation of finally finding an experience thought of as 'no self'? And when that doesn't seem to turn up doubt appears?

What if it's a case of repeatedly noticing that there is no self and that how it will seem /be/ feel/ look / happen, cannot be predicted?

Sending good wishes,

Jon

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Openview
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Re: Looking

Postby Openview » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:01 am

Hi Jon,
could this be due to the thinking that an 'I' can actually 'have an experience of no self"? How could that work?
No, the experience of no self is happening without an I. No self knows prior to the illusion of a separate self.
But could it be that there is an expectation of finally finding an experience thought of as 'no self'? And when that doesn't seem to turn up doubt appears?
yes...the expectation that the experience of no self should be a constant...when that doesn't appear doubt arises.
What if it's a case of repeatedly noticing that there is no self and that how it will seem /be/ feel/ look / happen, cannot be predicted?
Yes...I can see how the expectation of this being a certain way sows doubts...it is clear that what is cannot be predicted.

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Openview
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Re: Looking

Postby Openview » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:15 pm

I can give you a big fat yes. I asked the question repeatedly overtime... Hesitancy showed up time and time again...i sat with the sensation of hesitancy and it dissolved... And, if it comes back that can be sat with again or not.

There is no I here or in anyone else... There never was. Compassion experienced here.

Woohoo!!!

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JonathanR
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Re: Looking

Postby JonathanR » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:48 pm

Hi Openview,
I can give you a big fat yes. I asked the question repeatedly overtime... Hesitancy showed up time and time again...i sat with the sensation of hesitancy and it dissolved... And, if it comes back that can be sat with again or not.

There is no I here or in anyone else... There never was. Compassion experienced here.

Woohoo!!!
Brilliant! This is good.

Now, at the risk of repeating things, (but for thoroughness), could you please answer the following six questions? I'd be very grateful.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Many thanks,

Jon

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Openview
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Re: Looking

Postby Openview » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:57 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no separate self. The body mind is being lived. There never was a separate self...there was a belief of a separate self as the thinker of thoughts, the doer....it all happens spontaneously.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


the illusion is that one is the creator/originator of thoughts and actions. That there is someone here "me" orchestrating my life...starts with a name, Samantha, me and not me...language influences the belief in a separate self...thoughts happen, actions happen, decisions happen independent of a self...typing happens when it does...thoughts arise when they do...no creating here of thought or actions...the I is hollow.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
mostly compassion for others...seeing that there is no separate self there either...there was a little tearing...freedom...just this how it appears
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I kept asking myself can I answer with a big fat Yes that there is no separate self...hesitancy appeared time and time again...sitting with the energy of hesitancy and then it dissolved...just to be clear hesitancy can and may arise again and that will be what is appearing...what happens does not have to be a certain way
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decisions happen...i don't know what it is until it happens...the thought happens telling the me whether it likes or not likes or what should happen next....decisions appear there is no one deciding...the idea of Intention, choice or control appear or not...there is no self choosing what arises...there is no one here responsible ...it's an illusion...there is no one here that makes decisions about anything.
6) Anything to add?
thank you, Jon, for being a part of this!

Samantha aka Openview

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JonathanR
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Re: Looking

Postby JonathanR » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:43 pm

Hi Samantha,
. I kept t asking myself can I answer with a big fat Yes that there is no separate self...hesitancy appeared time and time again...sitting with the energy of hesitancy and then it dissolved...just to be clear hesitancy can and may arise again and that will be what is appearing...what happens does not have to be a certain way
Its particularly lovely to read this answer. Well done Samantha.,!
. Decisions happen...i don't know what it is until it happens...the thought happens telling the me whether it likes or not likes or what should happen next....decisions appear there is no one deciding...the idea of Intention, choice or control appear or not...there is no self choosing what arises...there is no one here responsible ...it's an illusion...there is no one here that makes decisions about anything.
Nothing you have written here is wrong but the question asks for examples from experience. So even though that is rather like asking to see the Emperors New Clothe, do you think you could find one or two real examples in which things happen or get done but not by a 'self'?

Thanks Samantha,

Best wishes,

Jon


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