Selfless Living?

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Bananafish
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby Bananafish » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:09 pm

Oh, sorry for confusing you with my first question ... I simply meant to
suggest you to try imagining the taste of a lemon.


When the mental image of a lemon happens, salivation isn't there.

When salivation happens, the mental image isn't there.


Isn't it after these two have happened that you can say there was a
"cause and effect" relationship between the two events - imagining and salivating?




Now, when you say there WAS a "cause and effect" relationship between these two events,
What are these events? How are they experienced now?


Please imagine sucking a lemon again, and observe what is happening.

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emptyself
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby emptyself » Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:06 pm

When the mental image of a lemon happens, salivation isn't there.

When salivation happens, the mental image isn't there.

Isn't it after these two have happened that you can say there was a
"cause and effect" relationship between the two events - imagining and salivating?

Now, when you say there WAS a "cause and effect" relationship between these two events,
What are these events? How are they experienced now?

Please imagine sucking a lemon again, and observe what is happening.
Yes, cause and effect can only be observed after they have happened.

Without thought, they are experienced as two isolated experiences (only thought connects them). Without thought we can not identify any kind of cause and effect.

So if I imagine sucking a lemon (thought) and then experiencing salivation, without thought there is no apparent connection.

But how does that help? It simply seems to point the limitation of experience through direct observation. There obviously is a connection.

I intuit that something important is being pointed out here, but I am obviously completely failing to grasp it.

My sense of what you are pointing me to is that the external world is real and just happening, and everything connected to the world of thought is unreal (therefore the self is unreal) and there is no relationship between thought and reality.

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Bananafish
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby Bananafish » Thu Mar 01, 2018 9:59 pm

Umm, that's more like a theory or logical conclusion.

It seems like, other than just seeing reality as it is, you are seeking for some kind of specific help (or result, or gain) from this inquiry into cause and effect. What is it? What's the sticking point?

What makes you say that "there is still a connection"?

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Bananafish
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby Bananafish » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:01 pm

Is there anything hidden somewhere?

What are you expecting to find in
something that is not present in this moment?

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emptyself
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby emptyself » Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:05 am

It seems like, other than just seeing reality as it is, you are seeking for some kind of specific help (or result, or gain) from this inquiry into cause and effect. What is it? What's the sticking point?
I don't understand. This inquiry about cause and effect began when you asked me to investigate if thought can do anything other than appear and disappear. I described how thought can initiate feelings and physical reactions into the body. How is this a theory - it looks like seeing reality to me - I am observing what happens?
What makes you say that "there is still a connection"?
I don't understand how thought as a cause can be denied. Is it necessary to deny thought as a cause to discover the non existence of self. In observing causation in thought, it thought therefore an agent in the same way as a self?
Is there anything hidden somewhere?
What are you expecting to find in
something that is not present in this moment?
I am not sure what you mean. I am completely lost with this inquiry now.

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Bananafish
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby Bananafish » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:21 am

Ok, can we start the inquiry again, from scratch?

Please think of something that you feel conjures up a certain emotion.

Can you describe what happened, in as many details as possible?

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emptyself
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby emptyself » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:43 am

Ok. Thank you so much for your patience.
Please think of something that you feel conjures up a certain emotion.

Can you describe what happened, in as many details as possible?
So I imagine being on a beach.

I get a visual image and then feel a range of feelings in my body - a sense of warmth, a relaxation, an opening in the chest region, tension in the body releases - general sense of wellbeing

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Bananafish
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby Bananafish » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:15 am

Thanks to your honesty, emptyself. :)

Now, based on your direct experience,
is it fair to say that you are now reporting on two things that occurred: visual image and a variety of sensations?

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emptyself
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby emptyself » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:21 am

Now, based on your direct experience,
is it fair to say that you are now reporting on two things that occurred: visual image and a variety of sensations?
Absolutely true. YES

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Bananafish
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby Bananafish » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:36 am

When you report it, what are you referring to? Memory? Thought? Or ... ?

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emptyself
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby emptyself » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:38 pm

When you report it, what are you referring to? Memory? Thought? Or ... ?
I reported it based on firstly directly noticing the imagination. Then I directly noticed the sensations. Two sequential experiences based on direct perception (two things that occurred)

As I write now, I can remember the same - so now it is memory which is thought

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Bananafish
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby Bananafish » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:53 pm

At the moment you report it, is it still a direct experience of both, or are both
gone?

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emptyself
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby emptyself » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:09 pm

At the moment you report it, is it still a direct experience of both, or are both
gone?
I guess as soon as one begins the process of reporting, it is 2nd hand and therefore based on memory - so yes both are gone.

Though I could imagine a beach right now and describe what I am seeing.

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Bananafish
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby Bananafish » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:14 pm

No, don't guess, please.

Did you actually see that they are gone?

At the right moment when you are explaining, are you experiencing the image at the same time?

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emptyself
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Re: Selfless Living?

Postby emptyself » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:18 pm

Did you actually see that they are gone?

At the right moment when you are explaining, are you experiencing the image at the same time?
As I report it I can only experience one at a time.I can certainly directly experience and report at the same time. In fact I can only report on the image by experiencing it (e.g. the first which is imagination)


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