Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

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Eloratea
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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby Eloratea » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:16 am

Whenever is possible try to observe the thoughts how they accompany every experience.
Is anyone thinking them or they are caused by external stimuli, and one thought triggering other?
Is there any control over them?

Especially pay attention on the thoughts “I”, “me”, “mine” – how they show up. What is their purpose; what do they refer to?
How the car becomes labeled as “mine” car? How the situation of driving becomes "me" driving the car?
Where is that me?
Please, describe what you find, thoroughly. In such little ordinary mind chattering hide some core, never examined beliefs.

Have a nice day :)

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby chimpta » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:50 pm

Hi El,

I (there's that I again) greatly appreciate all of your support and continued fine tuning. It is morning so I am just seeing this post. My meditations continue to be more expanded and peaceful.

There needs to be continued looking, attention during activity. There is the looking, no I or me, and then activity continues without any shift that can be found. As you say I will try to observe whenever possible. I will continue after work as this journey to the gateless gate continues...

Om Shanti

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby chimpta » Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:28 am

Back again after dinner. Today there was a lot more looking. A looking how events triggered thoughts which triggered more thoughts and emotions. These thoughts and emotions, when looking, are not a me or an I. They are caused by external events, experiences, no control is seen. That is seen during quiet moments of looking.

Assigning me or mine to a car or any other object seems silly. When looking, there is no me found, to own or drive a car or anything else. What about I am or I am presence? Not sure about that. It seems that am-ness feels more comfortable than I am. At times where there is a lot of focus and looking there are moments where there is a flow of awareness witnessing the world functioning on its own. These moments are fleeting, do not persist nor are they very strong.

These are the kinds of looking that occurred when there was focused looking. After some time I would forget about all this and continue with my day, sometimes for hours before the focused looking would start again.

There is not a feeling of any permanent shift of awareness. These insights and looks at what is are like pearls strung together across time. Some pearls are very far apart, some closer. Right now typing is similar to driving in that it is kind of meditative and easier to watch a flow. How can I deepen the awakening?

Pleasant dreams.

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby Eloratea » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:13 am

Hello Mark!
Today there was a lot more looking. A looking how events triggered thoughts which triggered more thoughts and emotions. These thoughts and emotions, when looking, are not a me or an I. They are caused by external events, experiences, no control is seen. That is seen during quiet moments of looking.
This is great. Now tell me does reality change when you don't look?
When you look there is no you, everything just happens and when you don't look „I“ appears. :) How so?

Once you see there are no you it can't be unseen. Thoughts and feelings about self appear, as a consequence of conditioning, but they don't stick anymore. And first we have to be sure you see that fact of non-personality of life clearly, than further seeing of the conditioning unfolds and it can be called deepening. And it is always by looking into the direct experience and resting in the truth of no-self, seeing the thoughts as they come and go, but without unconditional belief in its content.
Assigning me or mine to a car or any other object seems silly. When looking, there is no me found, to own or drive a car or anything else
Yes, ownership is also just a label connected with the “I” label. It is used in language for the description of body-mind activities, but through the life becomes built into belief of existence of some additional entity, called Mark in this case :)
What about I am or I am presence? Not sure about that. It seems that am-ness feels more comfortable than I am. At times where there is a lot of focus and looking there are moments where there is a flow of awareness witnessing the world functioning on its own.
There is just presence. “I am” is a label for the feeling of that presence, awareness, which confuses many people and supports them in further belief in separate existence.
But where are the borders of you and others in awareness? Where are the borders between the observer, observation and observed? Can they exist separate, or it is again just distinction made by thoughts?
These moments are fleeting, do not persist nor are they very strong.
Watch where those moments end and some other begin? How it happens?

Best to you!

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby chimpta » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:36 am

El,

Your continued insights are greatly appreciated. There is much to think about here. Really there is a lot of joy to see how you are pushing for a deeper looking.

Today was challenging with a headache most of the day. There wasn't much looking. Sometimes, when there is a free moment, there is just an intentional shift to an awareness that is more presence. It is like an instant meditation for a reminder of what is real. Couldn't manage much more with a busy schedule and body that had issues. More time is needed to work with your last posting.
Om Shanti

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby Eloratea » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:57 am

ok, take your time and write when you have something.

be well

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby chimpta » Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:57 am

This morning while meditating the idea came to bring up the me fully and process it like fear or any illusion would be processed. I brought up me as fully as I could. Felt good. Then I looked and the flow of attention, the flow of being, eliminated the me. Afterwards the meditation was much deeper and peaceful. To some degree it carries through in activity that the me is more deeply un-seen (if that makes any sense). It seems that a lot of the looking up til now was an intuitive feeling of there being no me. It seems now that there is a bit more juice behind the looking.

To address some of your questions:
...and when you don't look „I“ appears. :) How so?
It feels like when I don't look, life goes on like before I started this looking so there is an assumption that the I appears. But does it or am I just floating in the now? I am not sure. Still working on that one.

...And first we have to be sure you see that fact of non-personality of life clearly...
Yes this is a big one, such a key point. A paradox huh? How do you know if you are clearly seeing that which is not there? :) Is there a non-personality meter I could borrow? It would be great to see what the reading is... BTW should it be in the red or the black?
And it is always by looking into the direct experience and resting in the truth of no-self, seeing the thoughts as they come and go, but without unconditional belief in its content.
El, I love this statement of yours. Maybe that should be a sticky note on the forehead. When the looking is resting in the truth there is a tendency to become meditative, spacy, even in activity. Being a paratransit driver, taking the elderly in wheelchairs to Dr's and such, there is a value in clarity. That is part of what the looking was focused on today. Deep looking with clarity of attention in the 3d world.
...seeing the thoughts as they come and go...
This comes easier in meditation. During activity this is with limited success as the mind gets easily carried away with the activity at hand. All aspects of this looking requires a lot of focus to carry the investigation into the daily activity. It is easily lost for periods of time. When I do get back to it not much time is spent looking because nothing is found to look at. Then again the mind is lost in activity not focusing on looking.

...But where are the borders of you and others in awareness? Where are the borders between the observer, observation and observed? Can they exist separate, or it is again just distinction made by thoughts?

This is another one to sticky note on the forehead. It's getting crowded up there. :) It seems like when there is focus on the looking of non-self then at that time all borders become hazy or gone. Again this feels more intuitive that an actual looking. Does that sound right?

...observer, observation and observed?

Yes, very classical vedanta but somehow it has a deeper meaning now. You brought it up at a good time because to does effect me and inspires me to keep looking and go deeper.

...Can they exist separate, or it is again just distinction made by thoughts?

It does seem to be made by thoughts. Again there is a confusion as to whether it is looking, intuition, feeling or knowledge that brings that conclusion. It feels most comfortable when there is just a flow of being in the now moment. Sounds good huh? Discriminating between the real and the un-real by looking at that which can not be seen. Fun, huh?

A big question is whether or not this looking requires great focus to bring it into more aspects of the day so there can be a deepening of the experience and a clear crashing of the gate? For example

...Watch where those moments end and some other begin? How it happens?

There is effort to do this but more work needs to be done to catch those ending – beginning moments.
The awakening of this Truth has been the driving force in this life. There is great appreciation and gratitude for your continued sharpening of the razors edge.

Om Shanti

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby Eloratea » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:13 am

Then I looked and the flow of attention, the flow of being, eliminated the me.
What kind of „me“ was there to be eliminated? Thought „me“, or it is a kind of feeling?
It seems that a lot of the looking up til now was an intuitive feeling of there being no me. It seems now that there is a bit more juice behind the looking.
Yes, it needs to be crystal clear.
Like you see the cup of tea when it is in front of you. No big deal, no effort to see it.
And when you know that, for example, character like superman doesn’t exist in reality, you don’t look for him. You know him to be imagined.
It feels like when I don't look, life goes on like before I started this looking so there is an assumption that the I appears. But does it or am I just floating in the now? I am not sure. Still working on that one.
Little help: it doesn't, because it doesn't exist. If something appears, find what it is? If it is some vague feeling, try to describe it.
How do you know if you are clearly seeing that which is not there? :)
Like I wrote with the cup and superman. It is simple if you look. And looking means direct perceiving of what is, without interpreting it with thoughts, building around imagination, concepts and beliefs.
Is there a non-personality meter I could borrow?
everyone gets one upon passing through the gate :)) just keep going
This comes easier in meditation. During activity this is with limited success as the mind gets easily carried away with the activity at hand. All aspects of this looking requires a lot of focus to carry the investigation into the daily activity. It is easily lost for periods of time. When I do get back to it not much time is spent looking because nothing is found to look at.
I would suggest when possible just to sit, doing nothing (not meditating), letting thoughts and feelings come and go, let the life be as it is, see what comes up.
Then again the mind is lost in activity not focusing on looking.
There is no mind to be lost in activity :) there are just thoughts running; some useful for the activity, some not.
...observer, observation and observed? ...It seems like when there is focus on the looking of non-self then at that time all borders become hazy or gone. Again this feels more intuitive that an actual looking. Does that sound right?
Just look at the actual experience, right now - is there a distinction between the observer, observation and observed? Describe please what is happening right now in this moment. Let’s zoom this moment to clear more what is LOOKing.
Discriminating between the real and the un-real by looking at that which can not be seen.
Actually, we begin to look for what is. Because all the time before we were not looking into what is, but were lost in concepts and beliefs; and because it didn't feel right at some point we begun the spiritual search for some hidden reality, which is not hidden at all. Just we never opened eyes and properly looked. But time to do that inevitably comes.

It is a pleasure to do the sharpening of the razors edge :)
Stay well

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby chimpta » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:41 pm

Namaste El,

No time to sit at the computer yesterday but this work was continuing. For the last few nights, waking up during the night or waking in the morning, I would start the looking before opening the eyes, before the world came online. At that time there is a very clear awareness alone with no I or me and no interest in looking for the I/me which is clearly not there. That clearness continued in meditation. During the day there was awareness with no me, if the thought of this process came up at all. Otherwise life just went on. Was there a me/I at those times? Probably not.. Not looking so can't say for sure. Why look anyway if it is not there. If an I came up in thoughts or speaking it seems to be a habit, a way language expresses itself. At times life just flows like a movie. Sometimes with popcorn sometimes without.

No matter how clear the looking and experience of presence is, with no I/me, it is never felt as a new experience. Kind of been there done that. Much more than that was expected. Right? No fireworks, no angels with trumpets. Still it feels like more was expected so might as well keep searching and accepting “not there yet”. Who is fooling whom? Who is there to fool? :)

El, how do you embed the previous posting so you can comment on it? That would sure make this easier. To address your questions:

What kind of „me“ was there to be eliminated? Thought „me“, or it is a kind of feeling?
Seems that presence created a feeling of me and then projected meaning to it so this game of eliminating it could be played. But really it did not exist before this game. Is that what it feels like when a dog chases it's tail? :)

And when you know that, for example, character like superman doesn’t exist in reality, you don’t look for him. You know him to be imagined.
It seems that there is the intention of looking so that there is progress in this game because there is a desire for there to be so much more that what just is. But the intention doesn't lead to anything because there is nothing to look at.

Little help: it doesn't, because it doesn't exist. If something appears, find what it is? If it is some vague feeling, try to describe it.
There is a vague feeling of an investment of an I. Maybe because the expectation of the liberation from I was for something so much more but all that is felt is what has been felt so much in the past. Nothing new, was I always there? Been there, done that. Were the references to I/me previously in this chat a misunderstanding of my experience? There is a big difference now in the understanding of all this and the persistent looking that solidifies this understanding. That has lead to a deepening of whatever this is. What should a gateless gate feel like anyway?

When the idea of no me/I is dwelt on there is a subtle fear of “then what?”. But if I don't go there this all feels so natural. So why go there and look and create fear of what doesn't exist? Feels more like misunderstanding is falling away and the awareness that was always there continues and that awareness/presence is the natural state.

let the life be as it is, see what comes up.
What comes up is the flow of life.... chop wood, carry water. :)

Just look at the actual experience, right now - is there a distinction between the observer, observation and observed? Describe please what is happening right now in this moment. Let’s zoom this moment to clear more what is LOOKing.
Ok, fun. The observer is silent awareness and observation is that presence perceiving information in the mind. The observed is how the brain is interpreting the impulses that create the object of the observation within my mind. That flow of presence through the senses is really only perceived in the mind which is just a basket of thoughts and memories.

So where to go from here? This process, til now, has lead to subtle changes in the understanding of the flow of life. There is still a desire to dive deeper into the experience of Truth. Don't know if I crashed the gate or not. If there was a road sign for the gate it must have been at night with the lights out. :) El, what do you think? Now what?

Om Shanti

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby Eloratea » Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:28 am

Namaste Mark,
El, how do you embed the previous posting so you can comment on it?
You have to copy the text you want to quote, than mark it and then press the Quote button!
What kind of „me“ was there to be eliminated? Thought „me“, or it is a kind of feeling?
Seems that presence created a feeling of me and then projected meaning to it so this game of eliminating it could be played. But really it did not exist before this game. Is that what it feels like when a dog chases it's tail? :)
Kind of similar :)
When the idea of no me/I is dwelt on there is a subtle fear of “then what?”. But if I don't go there this all feels so natural. So why go there and look and create fear of what doesn't exist? Feels more like misunderstanding is falling away and the awareness that was always there continues and that awareness/presence is the natural state.
Yes, it was always this -what is, but I would like to address this fear a bit. Fear is always a pointer, sign post where to go. Invite it and ask what its message is? What does it guard? What is behind that door?
Than share what you have found.
Just look at the actual experience, right now - is there a distinction between the observer, observation and observed? Describe please what is happening right now in this moment. Let’s zoom this moment to clear more what is LOOKing.
Ok, fun. The observer is silent awareness and observation is that presence perceiving information in the mind. The observed is how the brain is interpreting the impulses that create the object of the observation within my mind. That flow of presence through the senses is really only perceived in the mind which is just a basket of thoughts and memories.
I think we misunderstood each other here. We don’t want theory about what happens and how brain works, but row data from your experience here and now. Most simple thing to do – just type what is your experience right now. Ok?

Don't know if I crashed the gate or not.
Don’t worry we have special test and group of serious guides to check it, but I think we have to do some more work here before that final examination :)

Thanks for cooperation!

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby chimpta » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:09 pm

Namaste El,
Fear is always a pointer
Not easily getting back to that feeling. Seems like it was the fear of stepping out into the unknown resulting in the disappearance of me. That same emotion doesn't really come up now. It was mild and addressed then and not really showing it's head now.
Most simple thing to do – just type what is your experience right now. Ok?
The experience is awareness pondering your request and the fingers working with the keyboard for the answer to come through. Feeling a bit spacy and tired right now. Maybe low blood sugar. :) I'll have lunch soon.

Om Shanti

Thanks El

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby Eloratea » Mon Feb 27, 2012 8:57 pm

Feeling a bit spacy and tired right now.
Is there you having a feeling, or it just a feeling?
Does the body have an experience, or it is part of the experience?

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby chimpta » Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:48 am

Is there you having a feeling, or it just a feeling?
Does the body have an experience, or it is part of the experience?
On looking a you is not found but the feeling is there. Seems that the body is part of the experience. All this still feels tired. This body should go to bed early tonight.

Pleasant dreams.

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby Eloratea » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:06 am

Hi Mark,
hope you had a good rest.

So, it is seen that everything is a part of the experience, which doesn't belong to anyone.
Feelings are there, as well as thoughts, but none having them.
If there are any doubts about it, share here.

If not, please look and answer when ready (as clear as possible):

Do you exist?
What is self and how it operates in life?

Stay well!

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Re: Time to awaken to the Truth - looking for help.

Postby chimpta » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:46 pm

Namaste El,

Been working long hours. Didn't even turn on the computer yesterday. Got up at 2:30 this morning and enjoyed meditation time and some time for this.

I was feeling stuck so I went back to day 1 and with the intent to do an honest looking. Nausea and a tightness in my gut came up. I invited and welcomed it in and asked for a message. Only that feeling was there. Any attempt to further understand the feeling brings me into the mind. The best I could come up with, on analysis of that feeling, is a fear of being abandoned, alone. I tried to work with that in different ways. Any suggestions are welcome.

Sorry I don't have time to work with your questions but will address them when I can. I don't want to rush an answer.

Om Shanti


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