Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

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pamelaholt
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby pamelaholt » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:58 pm

Neill,

Neil wrote" Is their a self" ... Well yes there still feels there is a self ... bugger... and I cant say why.. It feels like I am making decisions for starters... Thats a big one


Pamela

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pamelaholt
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby pamelaholt » Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:01 pm

Neil<
As an example been out to lunch today and wasnt hungry but had a mental argument with self and chose to buy and eat chocolates... I really need to loose weight so that was a crap decision .

Pamela

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neeeel
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby neeeel » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:15 am

Neill,

Neil wrote" Is their a self" ... Well yes there still feels there is a self ... bugger... and I cant say why.. It feels like I am making decisions for starters... Thats a big one
Yes, it can be quite confusing at times. You need to look at times that you make decisions. Are you making a decision, or is there just a lot of thoughts about it, followed by action? If you are not thinking the thoughts, then are you making a decision? Look at something like deciding to move your arm.

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pamelaholt
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby pamelaholt » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:51 am

Neil,

I can see that if there is a thought `I will raise my arm`... then I have no power to raise the arm... the trillions of muscular/ celluar actions required are beyond my managing/ power......It must happen on its own... But there is a stubborn thought that says I have will power... I have control... intellectually I know thats not the case but its not felt.... I am getting frustrated because I am going round in circles....

Pamela

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neeeel
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby neeeel » Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:00 pm

Neil,

I can see that if there is a thought `I will raise my arm`... then I have no power to raise the arm... the trillions of muscular/ celluar actions required are beyond my managing/ power......It must happen on its own... But there is a stubborn thought that says I have will power... I have control... intellectually I know thats not the case but its not felt.... I am getting frustrated because I am going round in circles....

Pamela
I would guess this is because you are thinking about it, rather than looking. You are allowing the doubts and thoughts of frustration to lead you off into never ending chains of thought, rather than looking at the thoughts themselves, rather than the content of the thoughts. You can never reach a conclusion by trying to think your way there.

I would guess you are still secretly hoping for all thoughts to go away, as they did in your clear experience you mentioned before. this is probably not going to happen. thoughts will still be there, thoughts of "I" will still be there, a sense of self will still be there, its just that once you have seen, you can always check and see if there is any real self behind all these thoughts and feelings.

So, instead of getting caught up in the doubts, and logical chains of thought, look at the doubts ( thoughts and feelings) and the thoughts, and see if there is a you doing them. You can sit and watch as all these thoughts and feelings come and go. Where do they come from? Where do they go to? Is there a source of these thoughts, a self? What also helped me was linking outside stimuli with thoughts. I was walking down the street, noticing what was happening, so , someone stepped in front of me, thought of "stupid idiot" appeared. Felt sun shining on skin, feelings of enjoyment appeared, along with memories of other sunny days. Saw a car, thought of "must look in car window to check hair" appeared. I could link a whole load of thoughts with input from the environment. This helped me see that I wasnt actively doing any of them.
there is a stubborn thought that says I have will power
Ok, is this thought from you? Is it necessarily the truth? Is it any different from thoughts of what you will have for dinner, or any other thought you have throughout the day? How is it different? Who is the I that has will power? Try and find it.

neil

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pamelaholt
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby pamelaholt » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:24 pm

Neil,

You wrote;I would guess you are still secretly hoping for all thoughts to go away, as they did in your clear experience you mentioned before.

I think you are right I am expecting something different to happen.

Today I will continue to notice the thoughts and feelings as you suggest.

The will power thing is attached to notions of control. Again i will see if there is a self. You say there is still a sense of self. I find that confusing. What is that then?


Pamela

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neeeel
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby neeeel » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:52 pm


The will power thing is attached to notions of control. Again i will see if there is a self. You say there is still a sense of self. I find that confusing. What is that then?


Pamela
You tell me. What is it? Is it a self? Or is it just thoughts and feelings about a self? Do these thoughts and feelings refer to a real self?

Remember, you have spent x years believing in a self. Every thought, feeling, decision, has been coloured by that belief. Its all automatic, theres no you doing it. So, theres no you to suddenly change the way your brain works. For some people I guess that old habits and conditioning do get scoured away when they see the truth, a radical rewiring of the brain. For most people, the habits and conditioning are still there, but weakened. If the brain is in the habit of producing a sense of self, then its likely it will continue to do so. Its just that instead of buying into these thoughts and feelings, you can see that they are automatic and spontaneous, and so no more important than thoughts about your favorite soap opera, or thoughts of what you are having for dinner. Seeing no self is just a very small first step. The work afterwards is just as ( or more) important. Identifying your conditioning. deepening the seeing.

neil

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pamelaholt
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby pamelaholt » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:18 pm

Neil,


Wonderfull!! I really get that....
I have spent last night and today, with the the following thoughts going... I hope I can explain it... It goes something like this. Well suppose I assume their is" no self", instead of assuming there is a self ,( thus spending so much time mentally trying to figure out what that self is), and see what that assumption is like
as an experience..
Last night I dreamt something that may me feel guilty in the dream, as I woke up,guilt feelings were still slowing easing out of me, and I burst out laughing.. How could I possibly be quilty for dream behaviour and what a wonderful example of how thoughts alone can induce feelings, with no reality behind them.

Any way during the day I have had a quiet joy ,as I have gone about my day.. Each encounter has been joyful and not stressful... I have been talking to people as though they are "me" and it has been great fun ... This does not mean that I have agreed with everyone, on the contrary is has been quite easy to state what I would like to see happen, for example to work men in my house.. I have even had"difficult" conversations with people that I would normally shy away from... Now, doubt is arising that it cant be this simple but since they are thoughts, they can shut up too! ha ha.....

The birds are singing, isnt that lovely, the back is aching, isnt that lovely, at least I have one!

The men in white coats can come I fancy a ride in an ambulance with the sirens blaring!


You say: Seeing no self is just a very small first step. The work afterwards is just as ( or more) important. Identifying your conditioning. deepening the seeing."

I realise the importance of that statement so I wont get too carried away... when the rubber hits the road thats the acid test...

Well , what to say , No self ,hey what, just a bunch of thoughts, feelings and sensations lumped together and labelled "me"... I cant /dont own them because if I did I would have made sure I only owned the comfortable ones!

Pamela

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neeeel
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby neeeel » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:47 pm

I have spent last night and today, with the the following thoughts going... I hope I can explain it... It goes something like this. Well suppose I assume their is" no self", instead of assuming there is a self ,( thus spending so much time mentally trying to figure out what that self is), and see what that assumption is like
as an experience..
Its possibly helpful to do this, but you need to be aware that you may just be replacing one belief ( belief in a self) with another( belief in "no self") , this is why we stress looking, because you really need to see for yourself that its true. Also , you can end up identifying as "I am no self", which is just as bad, because when the sense of self rears its head, they will challenge your identity of "no self".
But it sounds like it was a useful experiement for you
Last night I dreamt something that may me feel guilty in the dream, as I woke up,guilt feelings were still slowing easing out of me, and I burst out laughing.. How could I possibly be quilty for dream behaviour and what a wonderful example of how thoughts alone can induce feelings, with no reality behind them.
Yes, its funny. I have imaginary conversations with people, or go through imaginary scenarios, and they can generate negative emotions, even though the event hasnt happened. A good example of self induced suffering.
Any way during the day I have had a quiet joy ,as I have gone about my day.. Each encounter has been joyful and not stressful... I have been talking to people as though they are "me" and it has been great fun ... This does not mean that I have agreed with everyone, on the contrary is has been quite easy to state what I would like to see happen, for example to work men in my house.. I have even had"difficult" conversations with people that I would normally shy away from... Now, doubt is arising that it cant be this simple but since they are thoughts, they can shut up too! ha ha.....
Sounds great. not believing all your thoughts any more does take the stress and fear out of a lot of things. Other people arent you either, cos you dont exist :D Other people arent people either, since they dont have a self.

To try and consolidate things a little, tell me who is it who felt the quiet joy all day? Who is it who felt the guilt when waking up? Who is it who is having the doubts? Who is it who doesnt agree with everyone?


Well , what to say , No self ,hey what, just a bunch of thoughts, feelings and sensations lumped together and labelled "me"... I cant /dont own them because if I did I would have made sure I only owned the comfortable ones!
Great, some real clear seeing there.
to clarify, who or what is it that labels all the stuff as "me"?

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pamelaholt
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby pamelaholt » Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:11 pm

Neil,
Can I reply tomorrow... Had to attend a funeral and it's been a long day... I want to do your questions justice .

Pamela

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pamelaholt
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby pamelaholt » Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:45 am

Neil
wrote"

To try and consolidate things a little, tell me who is it who felt the quiet joy all day? Who is it who felt the guilt when waking up? Who is it who is having the doubts? Who is it who doesnt agree with everyone"
There is no one having doubts, feeling quiet joy,etc. These things are just being experienced. They are happening automatically. There isnt any one doing it. No central "fat-controller" inside this body.
The label " I " just got attached to all the experiences....

But there is still work to be done.... There is alot of conditioning to work through and alot of beleifs that are rearing there heads asking to be questioned... Having said that paradoxily I am losing the desire to be so much in the head .... the urgency to answer such questions is waning.

Pamela

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neeeel
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby neeeel » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:53 pm

ok sounds good. There are 4 questions traditionally asked at the end of the process, to check that you are seeing clearly, and to find out any points where you arent seeing so clearly. Can you answer them as fully as possible.

1) Is there a self, in any way shape or form
2) what is the self?
3) what is the difference, if any, between before, and now that you have seen .
4) how would you describe this to someone?

thanks
neil

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pamelaholt
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby pamelaholt » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:27 am

Neil,

I will attempt to answer these questions ,but there is reticence. A feeling that" I "dont have all the answers and secondly, a reluctance to write rather than speak because writing is labourious. That said he goes;
Question One;

There is no self as a separate entity because that would mean that if it exists it could be found in reality. But this simple isnt the case.
Question Two;
There are somethings that are experienced;things that are labelled thoughts, feelings and some our labelled as "me" ... as though there is someone that owns these things..... Mostly thought attaches the label "I" as an afterthought.... Its rather like saying "its raining" and then looking for the "it" thats raining ....there is no "it " thats raining, there is just raining... so thus saying "I am afraid" is somewhat similar ...there is no "I that is afraid there is just fear... The self is a loosely organised bunch of thoughts,memories,sensations etc with no fixed centre that is labelled me myself and I.
Question Three;
IT is seen that it is futile to try and find an "I" ... previously it was thought that there was an "I" and the task was to define it and find it... Thought is only something else that is happpening ...and analytical thought is not very
helpful in trying to answer the deeper questions of existence. There is just life happening. There is a quiet joy.. an ease of restless searching for answers... an acceptance of what is and seeing a "beauty" in that,even if previously it would have been labelled `bad`, `unpleasant`, an ease with not knowing...an acceptance that somethings can not be understood ...

Question Four;
There is only life happening and there is no "I" that controls it... This would mean that I could stand apart from life and direct it but this is seen through... Life , Existence is just hapening currently... There is no inner little puppeteer or some external GRand Puppeteer.. All of this is some spontaneous automatic happening.... Yes there appears to be an ever changing body and mind , that is in indeed unique and hence beautiful ... but that body and mind is just an expression of Existence...

Neil, this is the most that comes at the moment, there is a need to let this percolate... and I would welcome your comments.

Regards
Pamela

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neeeel
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby neeeel » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:23 am

Neil,

I will attempt to answer these questions ,but there is reticence. A feeling that" I "dont have all the answers and secondly, a reluctance to write rather than speak because writing is labourious. That said he goes;
Question One;
I dont want "correct " answers. I just want you to answer honestly. So, if you still feel there is a self, then say so. Its fine. If you are unsure about anything, say so.

Can you answer question 1 again, in your own words. The answer seemed to be too much of a learned by rote answer.
dont worry about right or wrong answers.

thanks
neil

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pamelaholt
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Re: Hi, anyone newcomer looking for some help?

Postby pamelaholt » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:25 pm

Neil,


There is no self. .. no I ... but there does appear to be a body and a mind.... the body and mind is unique... What is it that wants to say `my` body.. `my` mind ? help! I seem to be flipping between getting this and then going back to old thinking patterns....

Pamela


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